And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
LOCALgHOST
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And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 10:37 pm

it's soooo sloooooooooow and so close range. I think range is fine, because of it's devastating dps, but it have to be as fast as scout grenade. it can take _ages_ before Apo makes a throw. Wind up\down is insane.
Lolgar
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Lolgar » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 10:54 pm

IMO the massive AOE and spreading damage kinda makes up for a slightly slower throw time, if it even is slower. Plus its cheap and has a crazy fast cooldown and a low energy cost. I think its fine
TharxGamma
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby TharxGamma » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 10:58 pm

All about timing brother, as said, it has massive damage :)
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Rostam
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Rostam » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 11:10 pm

Blight Grenade of the skill champion does more damage though, but i am fine with changes on nade. it is easy to dodge if you are playing vs a good opponent in 1v1 and they will become less useful after the first usage since the enemy is aware of them.
the main problem of the apo is health. By default he has less HP that tech marine as a melee hero :V (600hp compared to 620hp) also his default chainsword is 25dps (a bit lower than an asm model). His sanguine chainsword (although the heal is good) is 38 compared to 40dps of FC (50 dps on chainsword&storm shield)
Also despite what people may think of apo, it is very hard to keep him alive. I dont think the poor apo needs nerfs, especially not for the sake of 1v1s and 2v2s its ok (in 3v3s can be powerul though late game, but i dont think 3v3s are a good indicator of game play skills)

The only thing I would like to get Nerfed/Fixed is that damn StormBolter of his (and warboss Custome shoota,they are the same) fixed and not stunning multiple squads. (I very rarely get that though unless vs ig or eldar since i like melee and it is broken atm)
Idk mb PC and Apo nades (especially PC) can use some slight nerfs meh, u can talk to atlas or boss about it
LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 24 Jan, 2018 12:15 am

TharxGamma wrote:All about timing brother, as said, it has massive damage :)


apo just can't get ig on it's nade in combat. I rather get rites on ig, because I never throw nade on ig. apo just won't live that long.
LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 24 Jan, 2018 12:21 am

Rostam wrote:Also despite what people may think of apo, it is very hard to keep him alive.


Rostam wrote:Idk mb PC and Apo nades (especially PC) can use some slight nerfs meh, u can talk to atlas or boss about it


lol. no nerfs needed - just speed increase. and I remember the time - that grenade was uncancelable - it was even more terrible.

as was said - it's easy to dodge and apo's low HP. so I think apo need some throwspeed boost.
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby PhatE » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 1:19 am

It's probably extra heavy...
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 2:47 am

You know you can set the grenade up, right? Shotgunblast into Made, suppression into nade or ASM jump into nade.
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 6:51 am

SM has an incredibly easy time setting up for nades. So many sources of knockback. Use it on a suppressed squad and they can just retreat so it's a good way of forcing them off, but not of dealing damage.
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 10:54 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:SM has an incredibly easy time setting up for nades. So many sources of knockback. Use it on a suppressed squad and they can just retreat so it's a good way of forcing them off, but not of dealing damage.


I don't need to force them off - I need to deal damage!

About knockback= u have to throw it BEFORE any knockback, and get unit knockback in that place or u just miss the nade. because in other ways unit will recover and evade/retreat.

Maybe u can show me off that "easy time"?
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 12:24 pm



Ask and ye shall recieve. At the 6 minute 20 seconds mark, you hear Indrid talking about the Purification Vial immediately followed by a perfect showcase why they are good as they are (even had to be toned down iirc). Watch Noisys Apo play in general.

Skip ahead to 8:20 to see even more pain.
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 3:46 pm

1v1 man, 1v1
TharxGamma
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby TharxGamma » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 3:59 pm

That was pretty much 1v1 :P
LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 5:26 pm

naah. it was the miracle. in 3v3 games ppl won't get much attention to all enemy commanders and bein' distracted. that cases won't show

in 1v1 battle is much tense and that scenario is very difficult to perform
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Phoenix » Fri 26 Jan, 2018 6:38 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 12:52 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:SM has an incredibly easy time setting up for nades. So many sources of knockback. Use it on a suppressed squad and they can just retreat so it's a good way of forcing them off, but not of dealing damage.


I don't need to force them off - I need to deal damage!

About knockback= u have to throw it BEFORE any knockback, and get unit knockback in that place or u just miss the nade. because in other ways unit will recover and evade/retreat.

Maybe u can show me off that "easy time"?


Yeah, it's the same with Eldar nades. Throw it before the knockback. It's only with regular Scout nades that you throw at the same time as the knockback.

There's nothing complicated about nade throwing. Go against the ai with high resources and get two Scout squads. One with Shotguns and another with a nade. Keep the Scouts together and when a unit gets in their range shotgun blast it back and aim the nade slightly behind them at the same time. It's easy and I've done it countless times. Once you learn the timing you can do the same with any form of knockback like FC's Battlecry, ASM jump, or Libby barrier. You can even do the combo with things that aren't nades like a Pdev shot or an Orbital Bombardment(Combo with Force Barrier only due to long cast time).

I'm not going to bother looking through old videos to find games where I used it, but you can ask Tex about it if you would like. Back then we 1v1'd constantly and I naded him to all hell and back.

I don't play Apo anymore so don't expect me to play a game just to prove a point.
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 12:21 pm



It's all about the timings. You just need to get to know the units better. There are
Last edited by Adeptus Noobus on Sun 28 Jan, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 1:12 pm

Phoenix wrote:https://youtu.be/huye59NHZws?t=5m40s


that was surprise effect. Not "APO with nade expected to go and throw it"
TharxGamma
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby TharxGamma » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 3:02 pm

Well that's down to your skill then for throwing it at the right time? And both nades take 4 seconds give or take split seconds to be thrown and damage. This is just something you don't like, not something that needs balancing.
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 3:18 pm

LOCALgHOST wrote:
Phoenix wrote:https://youtu.be/huye59NHZws?t=5m40s


that was surprise effect. Not "APO with nade expected to go and throw it"


Of course it was a surprise but you fail to see that you can set up nades like this. Shotgun blase into nade (scout or apo) works the same.
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Nurland » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 3:57 pm

LOCALgHOST wrote:
Phoenix wrote:https://youtu.be/huye59NHZws?t=5m40s


that was surprise effect. Not "APO with nade expected to go and throw it"


That is one of the strenghts of upgrades. You can get it mid fight. It was just well timed by the Apo player. Also setting up nades with various forms of knockback isn't very hard.
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LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 4:01 pm

yeah. i'll just better play chaos vs IG. Stoned_elf feels it yet. Topic can go to archive. pointless.
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Phoenix » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 4:18 pm

How about you ask Noisy whether Apo vials need a buff? :)
TharxGamma
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby TharxGamma » Sun 28 Jan, 2018 6:16 pm

I've just played a game vs Stoned_Elf as Apo to try showcase the nade. I used it a couple times check it out.

https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/32270700

Sorry Elf! <3 Still love you!
LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 31 Jan, 2018 2:56 pm

Phoenix wrote:How about you ask Noisy whether Apo vials need a buff? :)


Noisy, tell us!

I thank god the nade issues with cancel throw is fixed atm though (tm and apo, was uncancelable)
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Torpid » Fri 02 Feb, 2018 4:52 pm

There's also amazing synergy between the apo#s vials and ASM since you can just throw the vials slightly behind whatever melee unit is fighting your ASM and it is gonna force them off + bleed some models as they retreat through it then you just heal the ASM and they come out with more or less full hp after starting a fight with something like shees/sluggas.

I also use it to counter SUTs in builds where I really don't wanna get ASM, for example vs a plague champion. Slaughters nids as well with that ASM kb synergy. Exp, exp, exp.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 03 Feb, 2018 10:54 am

today I played it with shees and was impressed the first surprise encounter :)

https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/ ... &id=327710

but still I think eldar is perfectly evade it. so throwspeed boost! throwspeed boost! throwspeed boost! throwspeed boost!
LOCALgHOST
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 04 Feb, 2018 12:02 pm

goddamn - played vs Boss - tried to drop grenade - and NEVER do it. just constant knockback of apo
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boss
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby boss » Sun 04 Feb, 2018 1:38 pm

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/d__ ... prefix=dow


oppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
Forums great more shit to talk about.
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: And fix apo's nade for god's sake!

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 10:08 am

This thread has run its course, can we close it? I think we have established that this is not a balance issue...

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