Chaos Space Marine Topic

[Caeltos]

Post Chaos Space Marine performance here

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Chaos Space Marine's Aspiring Champion.

This is not the first i complained about him, i know, but still think he needs something.

At the moment, he only worth with the Mark of Khorne, and only for metagame purposes.

For the Mark of Tzeentch or the vanilla, he is almost unnecessary.

- In the Mark of Tzeentch he only represents one bolter more. Except for the 50 hp more than a regular CSM, he is equall as other CSM. He gives nothing more. No passive ability. No special ability. He doesn't do more damage than a regular CSM. Nothing. Well, yes, have a little more upkeep than a regular CSM...

His good damage it's not a excuse, because all the squad leaders (except maybe two or three exceptions) do more damage (some of they even double the damage of a regular member!) than a regular one or have a better weapon damage more effective against x unit compared with the regular's member one.

- In vanilla state (or vanilla + Eternal War) it's a bit more complex.

In ranged stance he does less damage than a regular CSM. But, as Caeltos said, the CSM + EW + AC do good damage against other infantry squads. But here comes the Mark of Tzeentch, which could do almost the same job.

Yes, the Mark of Tzeentch is more expensive, and it doesn't give the HP increase of the AC gives to the squad. But, the Mark of Tzeentch doesn't increase the upkeep and cost pop. Adds that the MoT increases the damage against all the infantry types.

In melee stance in the paper it's a good purchase: does 34 dps, (~40 dps with Eternal War), can perform special attacks and adds more health (the more health in a melee squad better.). The problem? Their lack of abilities that a melee squad have: they have no melee charge, the CSM don't perform special attacks, all the squad (even the AC) only have 60 melee skill, 5 speed.... In his melee role, they are very mediocre.

The problem is: how to resolve this? You can't give too much buffs because the squad with the marks do awesome damage.

#I have some options, and the quickliest is make the AC a permanent upgrade, like the Terma/Horma upgrade, but without the "die last" effect.

The Aspiring Champion upgrade is now named "Another soul for the Black Crusade". Increases the squad members to 4 from 3. Now the AC it's a permanent member of the squad, with the same reinforce cost. Keep the other stadistics and his special armour model.

#Another possibility is give some benefits to the AC depending of the Mark:
- Vanilla: now the AC have 70 melee skill and melee charge, and gives to the rest of the squad melee charge and +5 melee skill. The regular CSM still can't perform special attacks.
- Mark of Khorne: now when the AC attacks a enemy squad in melee combat, the rest of the squad increases their damage done and reduce their damage received by 1% by 5 seconds. Stacks 10 times. Can't stack with the Khorne Shrine damage increase effect.
- Mark of Tzeentch: increases the squad accuracy by 20% against all sizes and against all cover modifiers. The enemy's squad still receive less damage if they are in light/heavy cover or garrisons.

[Lulgrim]

In the Mark of Tzeentch he only represents one bolter more.

That's a +33% damage bonus on a crazy ranged DPS unit... not exactly worthless, a decent buff when you have 1 CSM. A lot of other upgrades are unnecessary in some situations as well, that doesn't necessarily make Tz-AC crap.

- Mark of Tzeentch: increases the squad accuracy to 100% against all sizes (except against tiny, which is increased to 75%) and against all cover modifiers. The enemy's squad still receive less damage if they are light/heavy cover or garrisons.

:| A fully upgraded TCSM squad already has super DPS... the accuracy buff would in practice push it from 70 to 87 against light inf and from 87 to 109 against heavy inf - that's already more than 2 Warp Spider Squads without leaders would do. And units in heavy cover would take almost DOUBLE damage on top of that (60% vs. 100% rounds hitting targets). I really don't think improving TCSM damage is going to improve the game.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

- Mark of Tzeentch: increases the squad accuracy to 100% against all sizes (except against tiny, which is increased to 75%) and against all cover modifiers. The enemy's squad still receive less damage if they are light/heavy cover or garrisons.

A fully upgraded TCSM squad already has super DPS... the accuracy buff would in practice push it from 70 to 87 against light inf and from 87 to 109 against heavy inf - that's already more than 2 Warp Spider Squads without leaders would do. And units in heavy cover would take almost DOUBLE damage on top of that (60% vs. 100% rounds hitting targets). I really don't think improving TCSM damage is going to improve the game.

Oh, Dark Gods, you have right. What i was thinking? 20% accuracy increased it's enough.

Editing my first post.

Instead, even with the accuracy increased the squads in cover are going to receive the current ranged damage protection. This is not going to be changed.

The accuracy increase buff with the AC is to make him worthwhile. You can't increase their base DPS, because their DPS at the moment it's great. You can't increase the AC bolter damage, because the same reason.

But this is only one of the possible options, of course.

[Maestro Cretella]

CSM AC really doesn't need to be buffed for the most part. Maybe a decrease in pop or upkeep, but definitely no change to the performance. People often say it's not worth as much as other squad leaders, but most of those other squads don't hit nearly as hard or aren't as versatile as a CSM squad with a mark.

[Dark Riku]

CSM AC really doesn't need to be buffed for the most part. Maybe a decrease in pop or upkeep, but definitely no change to the performance. People often say it's not worth as much as other squad leaders, but most of those other squads don't hit nearly as hard or aren't as versatile as a CSM squad with a mark.

Dark Riku likes this post.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

In the Mark of Tzeentch he only represents one bolter more.

That's a +33% damage bonus on a crazy ranged DPS unit... not exactly worthless, a decent buff when you have 1 CSM. A lot of other upgrades are unnecessary in some situations as well, that doesn't necessarily make Tz-AC crap.

And the Banshee Exarch it's a +40% damage bonus on a crazy melee dps squad... And the Tac Sargent it's a ~33% damage bonus on a versatile range squad... And the Nob's Nob Leader it's a 25% damage bonus on one of the best (if not the best) melee squads in the game...

The point is, except the Nobz' Nob Leader, the rest of squads add more things aside from a damage increase and a health increase, with a similar or sometimes even reduced cost.

I don't see your point :/

CSM AC really doesn't need to be buffed for the most part. Maybe a decrease in pop or upkeep, but definitely no change to the performance. People often say it's not worth as much as other squad leaders, but most of those other squads don't hit nearly as hard or aren't as versatile as a CSM squad with a mark.

That's not true. The CSM and the Nobz' Nob leader are the only squad leaders (maybe Scouts?) which hits with the same strength as the rest of the squad's members.

I'm not going to say the CSM with any Mark does shitty damage, because it will be a lie. But other squads do a lot more damage than the CSM.

AFAIK, the Mark of Khorne or the Mark of Tzeentch makes the CSM a more specialized squad (in a ranged or melee role), not a versatile one.

It's not a bad idea, but i would add too a reduced cost. Like 75-20 from 85/25

[Lulgrim]

I don't see your point :/

My point is it's not bad and every upgrade doesn't need to be an autobuy in every situation/game.

[Maestro Cretella]

Tac Sergeant comparison is a joke. All he gets is a 15 dps piercing bolter. Sternguards might be a different story entirely and I haven't completely examined the stats for them, but again, we're talking about spending even more resources to get something else entirely. The main advantage the Tac Sarge has is ATSKNF, which, while a good ability, cannot be used every engagement and does not affect the squad's damage. An extra 21.78 DPS inferno bolter or 36.92 dps power axe is worth way more than a 15 dps piercing bolter. The CSM AC's severely underrated ability is that he gets to use an upgraded weapon. He might not give as much of a damage boost as melee squad leaders, but as far as ranged squad leaders go, he's one of the best for raw damage.

Mark of Tzeentch makes CSM much more versatile than its vanilla form and more versatile than most ranged squads in the game due to the Inferno damage type. Inferno does full damage to infantry and super heavy infantry, while doing a bonus to heavy infantry. Most ranged squads do either piercing -- which does full damage to infantry and partial damage to heavy and SHI -- or they have plasma, which has bonus against heavy and SHI, but a penalty against infantry. This is all on a durable ranged squad that doesn't need to set up and has one of the highest melee damages for a ranged squad as well. Most other ranged squads are not on par with a fully upgraded TCSM squad and almost none of them will win against it in a direct fight.

[Nurland]

And the Banshee Exarch it's a +40% damage bonus on a crazy melee dps squad... And the Tac Sargent it's a ~33% damage bonus on a versatile range squad... And the Nob's Nob Leader it's a 25% damage bonus on one of the best (if not the best) melee squads in the game...

Banshee exarch also gives the squad a smaller health bonus. 5% Higher dmg but around 10% smaller health bonus and some buffs to FoF.
And when it comes to tact sarge the AC gives the vanilla squad maybe 25% ranged damage increase and no ability but increases melee damage way more than tact sarge. As for the marks MoT csm are great enough as they are but maybe the AC could have something sort of small extra bonus for MoK csm apart from melta pistol.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Tac Sergeant comparison is a joke. All he gets is a 15 dps piercing bolter. Sternguards might be a different story entirely and I haven't completely examined the stats for them, but again, we're talking about spending even more resources to get something else entirely. The main advantage the Tac Sarge has is ATSKNF, which, while a good ability, cannot be used every engagement and does not affect the squad's damage. An extra 21.78 DPS inferno bolter or 36.92 dps power axe is worth way more than a 15 dps piercing bolter. The CSM AC's severely underrated ability is that he gets to use an upgraded weapon. He might not give as much of a damage boost as melee squad leaders, but as far as ranged squad leaders go, he's one of the best for raw damage.

- He gets something more than a 15 dps piercing bolter. He also gets a 26 melee_pvp with 70 melee skill and the TSKNF, which well used can change a combat. Also, his damage is modified with Kraken Bolts, which increases temporaly his melee and ranged damage. And don't forget, these damage can quickly rise up with one of the varied SM buffs.

But this is not a CSM AC vs Tac Sarg discussion.

- The 21.78 ranged dps with MoT or the 36.92 melee dps with MoK are with Eternal War, which is an additional upgrade which increments the squad's cost.

- His only ability is to used him as a expensive reinforce-in-field and that his death in a battle have low relevance, compared with other squad leaders.

And the CSM AC isn't the only squad leader which changes his weapons depending of an upgrade.

Mark of Tzeentch makes CSM much more versatile than its vanilla form and more versatile than most ranged squads in the game due to the Inferno damage type. Inferno does full damage to infantry and super heavy infantry, while doing a bonus to heavy infantry. Most ranged squads do either piercing -- which does full damage to infantry and partial damage to heavy and SHI -- or they have plasma, which has bonus against heavy and SHI, but a penalty against infantry. This is all on a durable ranged squad that doesn't need to set up and has one of the highest melee damages for a ranged squad as well. Most other ranged squads are not on par with a fully upgraded TCSM squad and almost none of them will win against it in a direct fight.

The Plasma damage normally have more dps than a regular piercing_damage, which compensate the damage penalty against infantry.

For example, in the Guardmen the vanilla laser rifle do 4.12 piercing damage and their Plasma upgrade do 8.24 plasma damage. Even with the -30% damage penalty, it does more damage than the laser rifle. With the addition that plasma damage do more damage against HI and SHI.

In squad that mixed piercing and plasma damage (throught upgrades), one of their damage type compensate the other's weakness. So, at the end, their total damage is versatile too.

Of course most of other squad can't stand against a fully equiped TCSM. The TCSM is one of the expensive squads to pimp up, and have almost not ways to increase their damage. (and half of them introduced in ELITE).

Of course by themselves have to do the damage they do. Other ranged squad have access to cheap red damage buffs, commanders wargear buffs in they/debuff in the enemy squads/AOE damage buffs... which increases their damage. TCSM don't.

Banshee exarch also gives the squad a smaller health bonus. 5% Higher dmg but around 10% smaller health bonus and some buffs to FoF.
And when it comes to tact sarge the AC gives the vanilla squad maybe 25% ranged damage increase and no ability but increases melee damage way more than tact sarge. As for the marks MoT csm are great enough as they are but maybe the AC could have something sort of small extra bonus for MoK csm apart from melta pistol.

- Bansheed Exarch adds also +0.5 speed and the -50% ranged damage received in a squad is supposed to be a glass cannon.

- The problem with the No Mark CSM AC melee combat is their lack of melee abilities (no charge, 60 melee skill, 5 speed) which makes ineffective their on the other hand good melee damage.

[Dark Riku]

Other ranged squad have access to cheap red damage buffs, commanders wargear buffs in they/debuff in the enemy squads/AOE damage buffs... which increases their damage. TCSM don't.

Where do all these buffs magically appear from all the time..?

[Nurland]

Well as CL you can buff your csm with either bloodlust or shrines or debuff enemies with visage.
As PC you can heal them with shrines, worship, mucus discharge or protect with pestilent strike or debuff with lul spewer.
Sorc can use the daemonic shield (or whatever it is called), IoT, shrines or worship.
So Kayos is not without buffs or debuffs for ranged squads

I really don't see MoT csm underperforming atm compared to other ranged squads. That 33% health increase and increase of inferno damage is enough payoff for an AC and they really don't need more. I suppose AC without a mark could have the same 70 melee skill tac sarge has.

Hit points and ATSKNF make tacts tankier but csm do 38-58% higher ranged dps against all infantry types (depending on the armour type) and 26% more raw melee dps while costing 80/10 more and using less upkeep than tacts. (These are some quick calculations based on what I remember so they may not be 100% accurate. Or even 95%).

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i have a suspicion that 70 melee skill ACs will be really brutal to dedicated melee squad trying to tie fight the csms. they already counter ranged units and making them counter many melee units as well would just be stupid. 65 melee skill would give them an edge of all ranged, and some melee squads but wouldn't let the AC knock dedicated melee squads on their ass. tacs do much less damage than csm so it's more justifiable.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Nurland, when i was refering to buffs i was thinking in Damage increase output in allied squads/Damage increased input in enemy squads. Chaos (and more in retail) have relatively few of this buff types, so IMHO that was a reason for the awesome TCSM's damage.

Nuclear Arbitor have in mind CSM can't be a counter against melee squads. In T1 maybe, because of their 26 dps per model with Eternal War. But in T2 no. Even with the 70 Melee skill of the AC, the other members have 60 Melee Skill and can't do special attacks. Since the regular CSM members have 60 melee skill, they could receive more special attacks

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they don't need to flat out do more dps to counter melee squads, all they have to do is get enough shots off when the melee squad is coming in and they can beat it in melee.

[Maestro Cretella]

The Plasma damage normally have more dps than a regular piercing_damage, which compensate the damage penalty against infantry.

For example, in the Guardmen the vanilla laser rifle do 4.12 piercing damage and their Plasma upgrade do 8.24 plasma damage. Even with the -30% damage penalty, it does more damage than the laser rifle. With the addition that plasma damage do more damage against HI and SHI.

In squad that mixed piercing and plasma damage (throught upgrades), one of their damage type compensate the other's weakness. So, at the end, their total damage is versatile too.

In the end, these squads still just don't have the versatility of TCSM. A fully upgraded plasma tac squad still does less damage than a fully upgraded TCSM squad against ALL infantry types. Where TCSM particularly have the advantage is against SHI, since they just do full damage to SHI, while plasma gun units have that 70% penalty coming from their piercing weapon members. The difference is really made by the fact that every member of the TCSM squad, including the AC, gets an upgraded weapon, and that this weapon has no penalties against any infantry type.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

they don't need to flat out do more dps to counter melee squads, all they have to do is get enough shots off when the melee squad is coming in and they can beat it in melee.

In T2 which melee squad is going to lose against a EW CSM AC (AC with a hypothetical 70 melee skill), even if the CSM shoot it when the enemy squad in coming to melee combat?

- Banshees + Path + Exarch? With the Exarch while Fleet of Foot is on, they receive 50% less ranged damage. In melee, the CSM don't have any choice.

- Assault Squad + Sargent? They can jump into the CSM receiving pityfull damage. The regular membes do the same damage as a regular CSM with Eternal War. The Sargent receive a Power Sword, which does the same damage against HI than the AC Chainsword with eternal war. But all the Assault squad members can do special attacks and have more MS than the CSM. Also Assault Squad have +250 hp. A hard fight, but the Assault Squad is going to win.

- Sluggas + Nob Leader + Burnas? Sluggas uses Swamp'Em while approaching CSM. Only the Nob Leader do more damage against the HI CSM's armor with his Choppa than the 3 CSM against the Sluggas squad. Depending of the battle, could be an fair battle or a massacre. The CSM will lose in both cases.

- Stormboyz + Nob Leader? Their jump avoid them to receive too much ranged damage. Once in melee, the CSM will be destroy under the power_melee choppas.

- Librarian? Depends of the amount of upgrades and the use of his abilities. If the Librarian doesn't use any ability or doesn't buy any upgrades, the CSM is going to kill him, and maybe losing none or one model. If the Librarian use his abilities and have some upgrades (Like the staff, which gives him 70 power melee dps) the CSM are going to be owned.

- Hormagaunt Brood with all the upgrades? A difficult battle. The Hormagaunst in elite do like 220 dps in T2. The only possibility to win that CSM have is focusing the ranged and melee damage in one or two models, killing them to reduce their dps. If not, there is almost secure that the CSM will lose.

- Ravener Brood? Even with power melee, they do low damage and have low health and have 60 melee skill, so EW AC CSM will win this battle without discussion. But in defense of the Ravener, there is not their job to be a damage dealer, but a disruption/control/scout one.

- Genestealers? No single choice to CSM.

- Warrior Brood with Adrenal Glands? a though battle, because the Warrior Brood do low damage, but have more health. But CSM are going to win this battle.

- Autarch + Spear + Shield? Nope. CSM lose.

- MOK CSM or Bloodletters? No. Single. Choice.

- Raptors + AC? Regular Raptors do more damage than the CSM, and the AC do more damage than the CSM AC. Raptors win, but with loses.

- Catachans with both leaders?: A though battle, because the Catachans aren't a specific melee squad. But their power melee will hurt very hard the CSM armor.

EW AC CSM aren't a counter to melee at all except against specific squad, except the enemy melee squad is VERY wounded. EW AC CSM it's a melee counter against other ranged squads, which normally do a lot less melee damage than the CSM. But the lack of melee abilities (charge, more than 5 speed, regular CSM can't do melee attacks) which makes their less effective than they should be.

In the end, these squads still just don't have the versatility of TCSM. A fully upgraded plasma tac squad still does less damage than a fully upgraded TCSM squad against ALL infantry types. Where TCSM particularly have the advantage is against SHI, since they just do full damage to SHI, while plasma gun units have that 70% penalty coming from their piercing weapon members. The difference is really made by the fact that every member of the TCSM squad, including the AC, gets an upgraded weapon, and that this weapon has no penalties against any infantry type.

Tac + Plasma + Sargent cost less than a fully upgraded TCSM, and without mention other related characteristics (faction design, unit design...) Sterguard Guard, on the other hand is very similar to TCSM in cost and with their ammon choice, they could do almost the same damage than the TCSM.

And Plasma do +50% damage than Inferno against SHI.

But i have to admit you have right with your "Inferno damage superior versatile" argument.

[Caeltos]

Sometimes it's not about winning. Sometimes putting enough pressure can be enough. It's not far to often you get the individual 1v1 scenarios with nothing else happening.

[Maestro Cretella]

And Plasma do +50% damage than Inferno against SHI.

No needed, since this point is pretty much irrelevant unless you're talking about Dark Reapers. The plasma damage type is better against SHI, but TCSM are still better than most plasma weapon squads against SHI. Why? Because only 1-3 plasma guns are getting that bonus damage against SHI, while the rest have a 70% penalty. Every TCSM member does full damage to SHI.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Sometimes it's not about winning. Sometimes putting enough pressure can be enough. It's not far to often you get the individual 1v1 scenarios with nothing else happening.

I disagree with that. 1vs1 scenarios are not so strange in 1vs1. It's not the optimal situation, but you could have a EW AC CSM capping points, for example. Yeah, this is the work of the Heretics, but the heretics could be repairing a vehicle, fortifying a Victory point with a Shrine, in base healing/reinforcing... And you aren't going to keep idle the CSM with the rest of the army if you need to recover some map control.

That 1vs1 battle compendium was for Nuclear Arbitor, since he said that a hypotethical 70 Melee Skill AC in the EW CSM could be brutal against other melee dedicated squads.

As a Chaos player, i will never encounter a melee dedicated squad with the EW AC CSM in a melee fight unless the rest of my army was near to catch the enemy squad in a trap or unless the enemy squad was very wounded.

No needed, since this point is pretty much irrelevant unless you're talking about Dark Reapers. The plasma damage type is better against SHI, but TCSM are still better than most plasma weapon squads against SHI. Why? Because only 1-3 plasma guns are getting that bonus damage against SHI, while the rest have a 70% penalty. Every TCSM member does full damage to SHI.

The emoticon was not because I was laughing at you or your arguments. I used to used it to reduce some stress that may be in a discussion. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i wasn't even thinking of 1v1, i was thinking of group battles where taking a little health off an incoming melee squad means that it can't stay in very long, and can be much more easily killed on retreat. i know from experience that banshees lose to most HI squads if they take 25% or so damage on the way in. and, using eldar as an example, the only effective way to bleed HI is with grenades, power melee, or vehicles. elite has opened things up more though with the new units but i haven't used dark reapers a whole lot and fire dragons bleed badly. with eldar, most fights are incredibly dependent on the banshees because they're what do the most damage. not being able to preform specials means that banshees take a lot more damage.

[Nurland]

Tac + Plasma + Sargent cost less than a fully upgraded TCSM

The total cost of a tcsm squad is only 80/10 higher than that or a plasma tact. If you factor in the lower upkeep of tcsm they actually cost less req in the long run.

And as Cretella also mentioned something about the dps: Tcsm do 38% more dps to infantry, 53% more to HI and 58% more to SHI than plasma tacts iirc (cba to count it again)

Already said this stuff in an older post though.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

as much as i hate to say this, i think that abyss could use some looking at. the center is as powerful as ever however the perimeter does so little damage as to be negligible to low model, high health squads such as tacs. the removal of chains on retreat was a necessary change however the global is now rather easy to avoid if one hits retreat immediately. the global still happens very fast, the only warning being the fires starting to appear in the center, but that is usually enough, especially for units not in the center. i do not think that the chain's knockback on retreat should be restored however i think the the fire damage dealt in the outer ring could stand to be increased a little bit. i'm not sure how powerful it is against low health, high model squads though. i would be interested in knowing how much damage the outer ring does do.

[PanKiller]

Nuclear this isnt exactly truth . The instant x applies to every nuke if enemy misplaces it or your army is in good position to dodge , Abyss deals the biggest dmg out of all nukes its just fire instead of pure fast dmg so it is made for retreat kills like cloud and not for winning engagements like skauy , but skauy almost never wipes entire squads if u know how to avoid it , abyss do wipe .

[Dark Riku]

What is "skauy" ??

[Nuclear Arbitor]

it depends, some, like OB, can fairly easily be avoided completely. others, like roks, tyranoform, and depending upon your luck, eldritch storm, can sometimes be partially avoided. rocket run is really hard to avoid as is abyss. that said, all of them except abyss do ability knock back on retreat, allowing either the ability itself or other units to attack the units that were hit. abyss does not work on retreat anymore, nor do i think it should because it would fuck up pathing and cause entire squads to be wiped even when you otherwise avoided it.

this is really all tangential to what i'm talking about though, which is that the damage in the outer ring appears to be low enough to allow tacs to walk around, taking only one or two damage a second. given how easy it is to avoid the core, baring the chains, it means that units that avoid getting hit by the center and are lucky enough to not get snagged are effectively unhurt.

something else that just occurred to me is that the particles may persist longer than the the damage.

i think skauy may be storm in a Slavic language, maybe Russian or Lithuanian.

[PanKiller]

Skauy > rock .

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Predator
Extra Armor cost decreased from 135/40 to 100/30 and build time from 30 to 15 seconds
Lascannon cost decreased from 185/35 to 135/35 and build time from 30 to 20 seconds

Chaos Predator
No MoT (lascannon) changes. Still cost 185/35.

There is any reason to reduce the cost of the Lascannon SM Predator upgrade but not the Chaos Predator MoT? And more when for only 50/30 more you have the same unit that Chaos version has but with 200 more HP?

[Dark Riku]

I think it has something to do with heretic support.