Chaos Space Marine Topic

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Lost Son of Nikhel
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 09 May, 2013 2:22 pm

Lulgrim wrote:Nurgay Worship always seemed a bit meh mid to late game, even at 0.5 regen. Just another random thought, but in regard to Worship scaling, I could make it so that when a player has shrines (anywhere on the map, or within 100 range, or 2+ shrines, or w.e) then Tic Worship could be more potent. This could (in theory at least) allow players to invest in a more Worship-centered play-style for late game if they want.

Or we can simply make the Nurgle Workshipp scale with the Heretics' level or if the player goes to T2/T3. (3.5 in T1, 5.5 in T2 and 7.5 in T3, for example)

The problem with Shrines is that forces to you to a very static gameplay: Shrines are relatively expensive, and cost 5 pop IIRC.

At the moment Shrines are used for fortify a position with his buffs (+10% done or -10% damage taken or the heal + the reinforce effect.

If you want a more Shrine-center Chaos gameplay, you have to.
a) Reduce the cost (req/energy/pop cost) AND the benefits (and maybe make them stackable)
OR
b) Give the Shrines the IG Multilaser turret/Mekboy Turret Salvage ability, to recover some resources from the Shrine if your army is forced to retreat.

DJ Raffa wrote:Need to do something bout Daemon Maul. It's replaced Reinforced Chitin as the least used upgrade in the game and it's a shame for such a great model. Increase dps to 60?

And now, with the new 2.1.1 preview even less.

- Chaos Raptor "Daemon Maul" should no longer transfer to non-AC models.

I always said that the Daemon Maul upgrade should give give to all Raptors models a daemon maul, to turn the squad in a fully melee hunter squad, and some DPS increase.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Indrid » Thu 09 May, 2013 3:42 pm

All four of them carrying mauls would look a bit silly.

I just think the ability could do with some work. 200 damage and KB sounds good but it's only to a single model in T3 and puts more energy pressure on a jump squad. I'd rather have Merciless Strike than that.

Perhaps would be nice if they got an "Eternal War" upgrade instead, that gives them a flat damage increase along with the Maul.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Kvek » Thu 09 May, 2013 4:16 pm

Maybe the maul could make them something like vanguard ? deamon maul-power claw-plague sword-sword of flame ?
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby PanKiller » Thu 09 May, 2013 5:32 pm

Great idea , its bullshit that in t3 squasd still uses worst weapon in the game ... chaintrash .
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Indrid » Thu 09 May, 2013 5:49 pm

Kvek wrote:Maybe the maul could make them something like vanguard ? deamon maul-power claw-plague sword-sword of flame ?


I think they want to avoid that kind of homogeneity between squads of different factions, we don't just want Vanguard with spiked armour. Also Vanguard limited to 1.

Warp Talons upgrade would be awesome but I don't think that's gonna happen.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 09 May, 2013 6:08 pm

Maybe the demon maul could go back to it's old cost and change name to something like "Gift of the dark Gods', giving the champion a daemon hammer and enchanting the weapons of the other members making them do power melee (this could have a red glow graphical effect around the weapons like the chaos lord powersword before rank 60)

Still T3 , 100/30 cost, still gives the same ability.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Lulgrim » Thu 09 May, 2013 6:49 pm

Indrid wrote:Warp Talons upgrade would be awesome but I don't think that's gonna happen.

What even is a lul talon
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Indrid » Thu 09 May, 2013 6:56 pm

Warp Talons are Raptors with a pair of lightning claws each.

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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Lulgrim » Thu 09 May, 2013 7:08 pm

Technically doable although approaching the "yo dawg we heard you like lightning claws" point with LCs on I think 5 units.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby PanKiller » Thu 09 May, 2013 9:13 pm

It could be visual , i dont see a reason why u cant give rest of the squad ac power klaw . it does shit dmg anyway . Just make squad have it but melee pvp .
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Fri 24 May, 2013 11:17 am

With the 2.1.1 fix to the Daemon Maul bug, this upgrade is going to be the unique squad upgrade in this game which needs a non-reinforceable squad member to be useful. Lose the Aspiring Champion, and the upgrade is totally useless.

At least in 2.1 if you lose the AC, the weapon is transferred to another member, so you can retain the Daemon Maul damage, even if you can’t use the ability. The upgrade retains some usefulness.

But with the bug fixed, the Daemon Maul is going to be even less worthwhile. The upgrade forced you to buy the AC (affecting the Chaos economy, because the AC isn’t cheap 80/25) if you want to use them with their maximum performance. If not, you have wasted 90/25.

IMHO needs a buff. The most “fluffy” option is an ASM Vanguard upgrade, which turns the Raptors into Warp Talons, with dual power melee claws or power melee claws with plasma pistols, and the Maul for the AC. But im not sure if Caeltos would like this solution XD

Indrid suggested another thing: add a Eternal War effect to the Maul. With this solution, even if the AC is dead and you can't use the ability or have the Daemon Maul power melee damage, the rest of the squad would profit from the upgrade.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby dance commander » Fri 24 May, 2013 11:22 am

The only situation I would ever even consider buying the maul is to kill a zoanthrope.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 17 Jun, 2013 7:41 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
PanKiller wrote:And i wanna pc to have atleast a little melee dmg( wtf 6 , techmarine 20) because he has melee charge it does shit if he has no dmg.

GK topic. What are the pc and tm doing here? -.-
People want so many things. Making the heroes the same isn't helping the game. You want pc to be the same? Add melee dmg, Remove his DoT, remove his ability to fire under suppression, ... Doesn't sound so good now does it?

PanKiller wrote:Pc doesnt have any dedicated ranged weapon (STILL FUUUUUC) and u complain about him ? And how does he counter melee? Most chamoions crush him in melee even if he is fully geared out .

First of all I didn't complain anywhere about the pc.
Second. What hero beats the plague champion with fist and pestilence in melee? °_O
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Kvek » Mon 17 Jun, 2013 7:54 pm

Riku... He is just trolling
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Kvek » Mon 17 Jun, 2013 7:57 pm

crush him in melee if he is fully geared up ? You give him spewer,pestilence, nurgle mark and then u fight other melee heroes ?
Techmarine has 20 melee and what ? he can only get axe which isn't higher than 60 dps (am i right ?)
While PC can get awesome Fist with an even more awesome ability-With this ability he counters melee maybe ???
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Raffa » Mon 17 Jun, 2013 9:49 pm

Have no problems at all with the PC. Very strong deterrent hero.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby PanKiller » Mon 17 Jun, 2013 11:21 pm

What beats pc with pestilent strike? Chaos lord + claws , warboss + claw , grey knight + any weapon other than sword , there u have it . And ofcorse kite is best option cuz he is slowest unit in the game , so stop and buff him a bit cuz he is niche vs sorc/lord .
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Kvek » Tue 18 Jun, 2013 8:34 am

You named 3 heroes that are extremly tanky and have great damage output
What about all those other heroes ? huh ?
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby PanKiller » Tue 18 Jun, 2013 11:24 am

U are saying pc is unstoppable in melee , i pointed u out what stop him so your argument seems bad . Just like sorcerer is worst duel hero in the game but who cares?
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Kvek » Tue 18 Jun, 2013 12:15 pm

My english isn't great but wtf you said ? i can't understand it..

I didn't say that PC is unstoppable in melee... I just said that all melee commanders don't own him
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Chaos Librarian » Thu 20 Jun, 2013 7:15 am

It seems as though many people see the blood maul upgrade on raptors as useless. I'm trying to approach this problem in the simplest way I can, which is to say I would like to try to solve this issue by buffing Daemonic Fury. I would like to (naturally) incorporate certain aspects of the Sweeping Doom ability of the Chaos Lord.

So why not have Daemonic Fury do the following:

-Much like CL's ability, Daemonic Fury will do knockback and stun and 20 melee damage in radius 10 around the targeted model.

-Keep the 200 melee damage against the targeted model

To me this seems like the simplest solution since giving them "chaos vanguard" upgrade seems like a lot of work. Also, this would emphasize the Chaos vs. SM theme of Chaos units being inflexible but very specialized and SM units being flexible and generalist. With the above change, Raptors in tier 3 with blood maul will become dedicated disruption units with better disruption ability than ASMs, but of course, ASMs are more tactically flexible combining disruption with mild av such as melta bombs or the powerfist upgrade on Vanguards.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 20 Jun, 2013 10:20 am

Good idea, but still don't solve this issues.

- Dead Chaos Raptors AC = useless upgrade.

- Jump + Ability = impossibility to jump again in ages. Even if the Raptors are lvl 4, Raptors have to wait like (more or less) 25 seconds to jump again. A lvl 4 Assault could jump, use Merciless strike and jump out if the battle turns unfavorable in a row without need to wait. Not mention that Chaos have relatively low support abilities to save them.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Chaos Librarian » Thu 20 Jun, 2013 8:24 pm

In my opinion, Raptors are not meant to be an engagement opener but an engagement winner, whereas ASMS are meant to be an engagement opener. Hence, that is why ASMs, compared to Raptors, can stay much longer in the engagement and with a greater chance safely jump out (without needing to retreat) if the battle does not go their way. Besides, if the situation is really that bad after the raptors jump, they can Daemonic Fury (with the tweaks I suggested) and retreat to fight another day.

I don't meant to sound like a broken clock here, but lemme repeat the Chaos vs. SM theme. Chaos is a much higher-risk, much higher-reward version of SM. Raptors will have more dps and better disruption during battle than ASMs (with the tweaks I suggested), but they will pay much more dearly for misjudged jumps/engagements than ASMs. I hope that addresses your point #2.

As for your point #1, the AC on raptors has 400 HI hp, which is quite a lot, and besides Raptors are supposed to come from an unexpected angle and aren't meant to be out in the front tanking damage, so I don't think loss of AC leading to loss of ability is much of an issue here. In my opinion, if you've lost your AC before the battle begins, that's your fault for not keeping Raptors safe until the battle begins. If it's really that much of a concern, then I suppose you can have the maul transfer to a non-AC model, but then again that sounds complicated.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Raffa » Thu 20 Jun, 2013 8:36 pm

w/e the change is (warp talons or just daemon maul tweak) this upgrade just has to change I've been saying it for months.

Libby's idea for it is the best I've heard so far - specifically the idea, not the way you think Raptors are meant to function.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Codex » Thu 20 Jun, 2013 9:37 pm

Chaos Libby, I disagree with your assessment of how Raptors are meant to function. Sure, they can have a lot of impact arriving late to a fight, but say you're against a suppression team, how late do you want your Raptors arriving to shut down that suppression team?

Due to the fact that they deal suppression on landing and is good at pinning enemies in place while reducing enemy ranged retaliation (and with regard to pinning enemies down is arguably better than ASM are at it), and the fact they basically have tac hp stats, I would say that Raptors are linebreakers but require melee heretic support asap to get the most out of them. The suppression helps pin them in place so the heretics cannot simply be kited and the suppression effect reduces ranged bleed dealt to heretics.

The fact that you can pair Raptors, which are countered by melee, with heretics, which are countered by ranged, means that you pair them up for serious melee firepower with no concern that you are not equipped for the job.

On the other hand, if the melee tide does turn against your Raptors, you always have doomblast to suppress and back out, which not only prevents melee chases but also punishes those who would want to keep chasing, a very good melee escape mechanism for the Raptors.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 30 Jun, 2013 2:38 pm

A bit late, but I want to respond to you, Chaos Librarian.

- ASM have better disruption, because they knockback when they land (2 times in a row in lvl 1) and the Merciless Strike also knockbacks. On the other hand, Raptors have better crowd control, because they suppress when they land, not only making ranged squads not shoot, but slowing the units' movement.

- Raptors aren't the Chaos army spearhead, that's true, but at the same time, you want to send it to attack with the rest of the army.

- It's not as simple as "if you lose the AC in the beginning of the fight and can't take benefit from Daemon Maul, it's your fault". Snipe abilities, bugs or simple you can have bad luck and the ranged fire/melee attacks are focused in the AC. You can lose the AC in a variety of situations, which can turn the Daemon Maul into a useless upgrade.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby JuhwannX » Mon 01 Jul, 2013 2:04 pm

I have 2 ideas. Both are obviously changable, and workable for how people view them, and I know there will more than likely be critiques to them, but here goes:

I say the maul sticks with the AC and makes him a permanent squad member, and the lightning claw moves to another model. Just have the Maul replace the AC's lightning claw, and add a bonus that gives another Raptor model a Lightning claw. Sorta like turning the Raps into VVS - like units, with having the lightning claw and some form of hammer like weapon. Really good at fighting infantry, but not good at fighting vehicles.

Secondary (Probably the most unbalanced thing ever written) idea: If you wanted to take that any further, you COULD increase the cost of the maul, make it heavy melee instead of power, still give the lightning claw to another model, and give the Raps 2 jumps worth of energy with their Merciless strike type of ability taking up the second jump, if they use it. I understand the raptors aren't engagement openers, but I think that either of those ideas would help them scale better in matches, compared to buying blood maul - losing AC (As you cannot tell which models took the brunt of damage at times) Then losing the blood maul, and have to continue rebuying the AC for 90 Req and 20-25 power, JUST to use the Blood Maul. It's honestly very frustrating >.<
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 01 Jul, 2013 2:25 pm

How about we leave the champion like he is?
And make the maul a squad upgrade. Like tacs plasma, flamer, rocket launcher.
And increase the cost a little? To lets say 100/30?

So you would still keep the lightningclaw raptor sarge and have the maul as long as you have living squad member since the weapon doesn't transfer to your sarge.
But just comes back when you reinforce.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby JuhwannX » Mon 01 Jul, 2013 2:30 pm

Dark Riku wrote:How about we leave the champion like he is?
And make the maul a squad upgrade. Like tacs plasma, flamer, rocket launcher.
And increase the cost a little? To lets say 100/30?

So you would still keep the lightningclaw raptor sarge and have the maul as long as you have living squad member since the weapon doesn't transfer to your sarge.
But just comes back when you reinforce.


Wouldnt' that then mean that you would have to make the melta guns like that? Considering both lock the other out to you. Like I said, I'd personnally move the champ to being a permanent squad leader, who holds the maul. Or even having a Warp Talon upgrade, in T3, that makes the Raps turn into Warp talons, and start back at level 1. Just like ASM, and Tacs, when they go to being Stern and Vanguard veterans.
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Re: Chaos Space Marine Topic

Postby Indrid » Mon 01 Jul, 2013 3:56 pm

I think Caeltos wanted to avoid just having another Merciless Strike type thing, hence it is a single model ability. When you can actually pull it off, it's pretty beastly. Just not quite as useful as Merciless and a bit more fiddly to use, trying to pick out the model you want in hectic T3 fights. Merciless you just point in a direction.

IMO the maul upgrade should be incorporated into a more generic "Eternal War" type upgrade. Giving the Maul + Daemonic Fury alongside a flat damage increase, HP increase or an energy increase which would allow them to jump in, use Dameonic, jump out if needed. Or some kind of combo of those things.

It's not terrible, but in T3 you're usually trying to get out game-changers or something that helps you hold position (coming from 2v2 and 3v3) and dumping 25 power on the maul doesn't quite cut it.

I imagine it is much better in 1v1s? You are more likely to be contesting something important against another single squad in 1v1 (not an entire army or two), where the ability could easily win you that engagement.

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