Ork Topic

[Caeltos]

Post Ork performance here.

[Cyris]

I'll bite!

I've been slowly doing a circuit of mainjng each race in turn until I feel comfortable playing them, primarily in 1v1. Orks are my current focus, so I figured I'd put together my thoughts and post. Overall, I think Orks are great. T1 and T3 have a nice variety of good options to choose between based on matchup and the enemies build. Orks have a lot of strengths and some weaknesses that they can work around if they play right. While their AV is weak, it isn't GK weak, and I never have felt like "augh, I have no good way to deal with X unit".

Sluggas: They remind me so much of hormagaunts. Sub-par by every measure I can think to use in T1, fit only for capping duty and cleanup after my relevant squads have done the real work. At least they can get special attacks though! I tend to use them for capping duty and prefer to not reinforce them to save req. I've been trying to focus on their ability to flank and get model picks on retreats. Picking up a well timed burna is great for surprise gen pressure, and come T2 the Nob is a great investment. The squad becomes a lot more resilient, but they still are either the worst or second worst T1 melee squad I've played with. Their ability to repair is the ONLY reason I even invest in them many games, which feels pretty lame. Some matchups I do appreciate them as a unit besides their repair, but in those they are usually still a worse version of the melee squads they are intended to counter, and preform their role well only when I heavily lay on the Red, or give them significant assistance from other units.
All that said, in the context of the Ork army I think they are mostly "OK". I'd personally really like to see them go down 1 squad member and have damage/health rebalanced (maybe have shootas go up one squad member with similar rebalancing). They bleed a whole lot, even with the health upgrades the burnas and Nob gives. Playing as Orks is the only time I feel upset having re-buy the repair unit if it dies, and I think thats telling of either my playstyle, or the units overall weakness. I feel it'd be appropriate to have small cost decreases for Burnas, or maybe further decreases in the Red cost of Swamp 'Em.

Shootas: Shootas are just solid. They have a long list of caveats, but as a whole I think the unit is in a good place. Big shootas and nobs cost a lot of power, AWD still let suppression squads fire for a few seconds and don't work on a few commanders, Termagaunts with Toxin sacks are WAY better at countering melee in pairs, they aren't as strong as in retail. But really, they are a relatively cheap, high dps unit that is the backbone of my army into T3. The Ork ability to invest between 0 and 40(?) Power in them allows for VERY adaptive play in T1.
Things I would change with the unit would be to maybe add 1 more model and rebalance damage/health around it, allowing them to bleed more often. Also, slightly reduce the damage on the two Big Shoota models and give that damage to the generic squad members. Being able to function well at 2-3 models is an interesting function of the unit, but slightly reducing it's potency would be a good idea in my mind.

Lootas: Lootas rock. I feel like the Ork army synergizes very well with setup teams, and the stealth ability is SO GOOD. The squad has surprisingly high health per model and can really dish out the damage. In T2 they fall ff a bit, since while the beamy deffgun preforms it's role, comparing it to other T2 AV setup teams shows it clearly behind. This helps to compound the correct consensus that Ork AV kindda stinks
I'd make two changes to the Loota. First, the beamy deffgun needs a buff. At 42 dps it equals both the Brightlance, Havok and IG HWT. The BL has AI abilities with scorch (which if you havn't used... try it) while hte other two both have snares. The beamys claim to fame is a better burst damage and stealth. In theory this should mean they are close in potency, but really the loota just falls off. When a setup team snare hits a good number of vehicles, they are toast, being unable to avoid the second hit and being totally suceptable to other soft or hard AV that is handy. When the loota hits something, you know you have about a year before it fires again Now, I don;t think it needs much, but on a race that struggles with AV this fully dedicated AV option could stand to be a touch better. Ideas: 1s stun on hit, slightly increased damage (more spike damage), increase beamy range when it is stealthed. Second, I'd really like the loota to get a mutually exclusive T2 upgrade to the beamy. This is not to serve any particular balance problem, but just cause it feels lacking and would be cool! How about a setup version of one of those Flash Git guns? Or the wartruk gun? Maybe a T3 upgrade instead? I dunno really, but I think it would open up some variety in general, and is a clear place to put the upgrade without rally unbalancing the race much.

Stormboyz: I have not used Stormboyz a lot, but when circumstances cause me to make them I am totally satisfied (contrasted by when I make Ravaners with the intention of using them as a jump melee troop). The unit is fragile but deals a lot of damage. It's expensive when it starts bleeding, but can get it's job done well. It's T2 Nob is fantastic (surprisingly high AV damage as well) and the few times I've made the suicide upgrade it's done very well (against double suppression or ranged blobbing). The unit preforms very well when I get a Painboy to drop a heal on them and the WB globals make them super pimp of course. Their charge is as worthless as ASM, but it's not a big deal. Jump on a squad as you AWD it, and you've nearly garenteed a retreat. Mix in the T2 Nob and oof!
I don't think I'd change a thing with this unit.


Welp, that's T1 sans Painboy, and I think I'm done for now. I might add more later, or I might not. Here's the short version:
I want to love the Painboy and I mostly do. He needs just a touch more in my mind. Right now his T2 feels like a SM Libby, where I hold him back using spells and very occasionally engange in melee. But unlike the libby, he has only 1 spell... I do keep making him though, because in T1 he can bully a decent number of squads around.
Deff Dread didn't need price reduction! I'd really like a mutually exclusive upgrade from Burnas and Bits, preferably something with an AV component!
T3 has just too many great options and T2 is still a joke. I get a wierdboy and a few upgrades, maaaaaybe a truk, then move on.
Wierdboy is honestly too good. He's got weaknesses sure, but after playing with other subcommanders or artillery, damn man, this guy is boss. And, I have not once bought any of his upgrades yet. I can't even imagine how much better he's gonna get when I add those into my playbook for Ork...

[Kvek]

Battlewagon needs a price increase or a nerf. This thing is so fast. Has AV/AI weapons.
And the deff rolla can wipe squads in 5 seconds. There are a few replays where the wagon just kills everything

[MyMe]

You're suggesting a nerf to the Battlewagon of all things? So it has a somewhat nice ability with wipe potential... Ever heard of a Demolisher Cannon (?) shot, Wailing Doom, or even Vomit sometimes? I'm pretty sure it has the lowest health of super units with a very slow firing, mediocre zzap shot, and negligible piercing damage (even given that you need to take one of your squads off the field to get the shootas to work). Sure it's the cheapest "super tank", but not by much... But nerfing one of the weakest super units in the game sounds pretty bad to me.

[Kvek]

Wailiing doom vomit etc. You need to time it. With deff rolla you just walk throught them with it. It's very fast even with 2 units inside. And if you have the deff rolla activated....... This thing doesn't need a nerf too much but for 700req 170 power.It needs a price increase

[KanKrusha]

At cyris

Interesting point on ork repair, I have always found that a problem, but I would probably go with adding repair to rokkit boyz instead

I think Sluggas are supposed to bleed. Do you think having a cheaper reinforce would help the problems you see?

I would disagree about beamy loota but that is because I would usually have warboss with klaw or rokkit boyz as well (if I was still in the game)

[Nuclear Arbitor]

keep in mind that the battle wagon is speed 12.5 with deff rolla and kult of speed, making it the second fastest thing in the game and instantly killing any non-hero/SHI thing it comes across.the only thing faster then it, a war trukk with kult of speed, is 13. the only way to counter the deff rolla is with pathing to screw up it's acceleration so you can move away from it, although a snare might be enough, especially combined with pathing. i would say that eldar have the easiest time dodging it because of fleet of foot, especially if it starts the deff rolla while near a squad.

that said, the rest of the unit seems rather lack luster to me, although i haven't seen the thing in a long time and it's been even longer since i've used it. i think the real issue with the battlewagon is the length of time that the deff rolla lasts;15 seconds is a long time.

[Dark Riku]

But nerfing one of the weakest super units in the game sounds pretty bad to me.

Best super unit in the game - Toilailee.

And he plays Orks a lot these days...
And I kinda have to agree with him.
Deathrolla just deletes everything. It's not even funny.

[Kvek]

Yeah and people don't use it so often beacause. Nobz nobz nobz moaar nobz. Even if they are easily countered they just do nobz

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

IIRC, the maximun speed that Battlewagon can reach is 15.5

5.5 base + 1.5 x 2 with the third and the fourth squad garrisoned into + 4 for Deffrolla buf + 3 for Kult of speed.

It's simply insane. Hell, even a lasscanon HWT can only reduce his speed to 7.75 with full buffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H2cjRhq0CM

[Nuclear Arbitor]

ffs sake, i didn't realize guys being in it did more than make more guns shoot. the cool down on the rolla is clearly about 20 seconds as well. needs a nerf.

[Kvek]

Deff Rolla nerf and a price increase as well
And the Deff rolla is only for 30 waagh if im sure

[KanKrusha]

Weirdboy
Been seeing the weirdboy getting some criticism as he has too many starting abilities including his basic attack

Suggestion:
remove knock back from weirdboy basic attack plus change zzap to a hit with knockback

This way weirdboy still has plasma but only can cause knockback by spending energy

Plus zzap is made more useful (now that everyone knows how to avoid the damage bouncing)

[Kvek]

Weirdboy is fine the way he is.

[Dark Riku]

Weirdboy is indeed freaking awesome. Ranged Sub commander with a mini plasma cannon that doesn't require setup and extra abilities.
(not to mention his energy regen when you waagh)

His stun is just too good. Renders your army or squad completely useless since it lasts so long. Combined with the ork high DPS.

If anything this should be changed.

[Nurland]

Yeah the Derp Vomit is pretty darn good since you can't practically dodge it and it lasts for ages. Do units still take extra dmg while stunned by the vomit?

[KanKrusha]

From change: log warp vomit now has increased minimum range (to15 from 10) and no longer reduces sight of affected units. No change to damage bonus listed

I hadn't anticipated those comments, I thought it was the knockback on the basic attack on top of having vomit that was OP. vomit itself pretty core to the role of weirdboy (hiz raisin der eata - aside from warpath which requires upgrade). maybe the duration of effect could go down a little

His basic attck knock back can be covered by stikkbommas (or even tank busts barrage) so no harm nerfing that

Nerfing warp vomit too much would mean he would need to be upgraded to be useful - foot of gork and war path. He would then be too cost inefficient out of the box and he would disappear a lot from play.

[Asmon]

Yeah the Derp Vomit is pretty darn good since you can't practically dodge it and it lasts for ages. Do units still take extra dmg while stunned by the vomit?

Units do take 20% more damage.

And Warpath is just one of the best upgrade of the game, if the weirdboy has no ranged attack at all it would still be worth the purchase thanks to warpath.

[Dark Riku]

Nerfing warp vomit too much would mean he would need to be upgraded to be useful - foot of gork and war path. He would then be too cost inefficient out of the box and he would disappear a lot from play.

He's amazingly useful even without vomit.
(mini movable pdev, and zap ~~)

[KanKrusha]

... Okay, so has the discussion moved from "basic attack on top of vomit is too good" to the inverse but similar "spawning with vomit ability on top of basic attack is too good" ?

I would have gone with former, vomit is what Orks needed in tier two when Chaos was added to the game in Chaos Rising and the other bells and whistles (pun there for modders) was just a bonus

[Asmon]

You wanted to change the basic attack, which is indeed very good but not as high of a concern as warp vomit that is an engagement winner in most cases.

So we'd rather see a nerf to warp vomit than a nerf to his basic attack.

[MyMe]

Weirdboy is fine the way he is.

This. Why is everyone so eager to nerf him? Or orks in general, for that matter.

[Kvek]

btw he can't retreat while using warp vomit. So it's easy to just jump him and kill him

[Dark Riku]

Why would he need to retreat when you just stunned him.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the thing about warp vomit is that it doesn't telegraph, casts instantly, and covers the dead zone from minimum range with the aoe. you have no chance to dodge it. it's also cheap and is very good with foot of gork.

[Indrid]

Decrease stun duration to ~4s, but allow it to stun vehicles again for a very short duration (~1s) and have it stack with Sikkbomba stun duration. Would reward the timing of stacking it with stun bombs but not be such a good engagement winner by itself.

[Asmon]

.... covers the dead zone from minimum range with the aoe.

No it does not. If you're already in melee with the weirdboy WV won't hit you.

[Vapor]

Some sort of nerf on vomit might be OK - how about 7 seconds? That would put it in line with other Orky stuns (Knob, Stikks).

Changing it to 4 seconds would be a huge gamechanger and I think the cooldown should be reduced substantially in that case. Not really a fan of such a drastic nerf.

Also, the Knob's t2 armors are strangely priced. The mega boom kit is better in many ways than the infiltration kit, yet it costs only 20 power. I propose giving both armors a 25 or 30 power cost.

[KanKrusha]

I'm thinking 8 seconds myself for vomit duration

Four seconds would make it a "omg banshees coming, vomit and retreat" ability. To maintain its current role It needs to be long enough to bleed the stunned unit and force them to retreat

[Nuclear Arbitor]

.... covers the dead zone from minimum range with the aoe.

No it does not. If you're already in melee with the weirdboy WV won't hit you.

most squads don't move in a clump