Ork Topic

[Ace of Swords]

deff dred's power cost is on par with sterns, req is more pricy. on top of that, in order to make deff dreds effective at gen bashing, extra power investments into burna is needed. also, stern upgrade's incremental. get serg, see deff dread, get las cannon, problem solved. deff dred rush is a good tactic, but not a "i win and you lose" option.
now if the ork opponent also has storms, and beat you to a burna-upgraded deff dred when you have no answer but a lascannon waiting to be jumped, i have some bad news, and the game was probably already lost in T1.

You don't realize that once the dred is out it's a full genbash, there is no way to stop it unless the SM is ahead in tech which he shouldn't and you know that in the end that's 450 req + all the power gathered in the meanwhile? + a deff dred forces to get 2 or more soft AV or soft + hard AV which is a big investment, sternguards do not require anything, you'll just prioritize your hero on them instead of something else.

no, painboy does not approach. wasn't the whole point of this discussion about how painboy and slugga are counter-initiative against jump troops? honestly, just engage, do your best to force off weirdboy: you may lose one ASM model or so, but now the weirdboy is gone, and hellfire rounds are bleeding orkz profusely.

that's valid for T1, in T2 the slugga nob rapes everything, please be real.

simply saying that 2 subcommanders is not ok is not what ELITE mod is about, it is about allowing different builds to occur to accommodate different playstyles. if bleed is an issue, the upkeep for those subcommanders is something that can be tweaked, but simply saying NO to different tactics is a very lame way to approach balance issues.

Last time i checked it was about balancing a broken game, not making it even more broken.

Sure, why don't we also give the painboy some range attacks and awesome spells, that sounds good to me. In fact, why don't we move libby to T1 and then combine painboy and weirdboy into one (frozen is onto something here)

The heal already heals more than the damage the libby smite would do, but if you want to put it that way we can also give the libby the same heal adjusted for sm and then we are cool, sounds fine?

TL:DR version:
exclusive option between painboy and weirdboy is lame, boring, and is not what ELITE mod is about. there are better ways to tweak the SM vs orkz MU.

And it's not a sm problem alone, the painboy can take on AC tics very very easily, even multiple of them ,beside the fact that in straight 1v1 it beats a CL handily, has 0 problems in dealing with raptors and NMs (which were a weakness of orks).
And 2 out of 3 orks commanders have a natural counter to supression right off the bat

[Asmon]

LOL? How many times I said this in 104 post in this forum? 0, maybe 1? Yes, I have been soooooooo insistent.

It's not a "bad play". The Havocs could been shooting other squad. Maybe it's not a Havoc squad which instant suppress. And even if you start shooting him at max range, he could give a fuck and reach the HWT if he has enough health + the Stronga Git Sauce on him.

You're far from the only one saying this and that is what I meant here. If the WB is not flanking you should be able to stop him. If you can't it's indeed a mistake, either you miss what you need (ie kb) or did not react in time. No need for divine reflexes, just awareness. I don't forget anything.

[FiSH]

Knob's grappling hook into kaboom combo is overperforming against low hp high model count squads. it is undodgeable and unretreable, and it is hard to know when it is coming. it wiped 2x termagaunts at LITERALLY 100% hp in one ability. i have replay for proof.

[Kvek]

Meh i found it like CoT everytime i used it i never was close enough

[FiSH]

Some people have learned the timing. Many abilities/combos in this game require some practice with timing, just because it is difficult to pull off doesn't mean it shouldn't get a closer look at.

Here is the actual video of the combo. Notice that I even try to move my termagaunts away, but to no avail. Props to FrozenVapor for pulling off the combo (he pretty much nails it all the time.)



Reasons why this combo is OP:
- Takes less than 2 seconds for the casting rune to appear and your stuff dying.
- Rune does not appear on the top of the target, rather at an arbitrary place that an infiltrated single-entity is at.
- Grappling hook propels Knob incredibly fast, so it is almost impossible to dodge.
- Kaboom does massive burst damage, whether the target is in retreat or not.
- Kaboom in the inner radius knocks back walkers with a high percentage, and always knocks back tyrant guard. (sends flying is the more accurate term, believe it or not. There was one Indrid's cast on Armageddon River Crossing when a tyrant guard was sent flying.)

Reasons why this combo is not OP:
- It's not easy to do.

Possible suggestion:
- Make grappling hook send Knob flying at a later time so that the two abilities cannot combo, but Kaboom and grappling hook individually can still be used effectively.

If you really think this is not OP, why not just go ahead and say Mek should be able to trigger mega rumblah, and then teleport in? Because that sounds balanced, right?

[Torpid]

That's ridiculous.

[Kvek]

Not OP at all

[caralimon]

Wow.... that looks quite broken indeed. I mean, there doesn't seem to be much you can do to prevent it.

While I think it's great to be able to do this kind of creative, skillfull combos, I don't think this was intended to happen. With Sneaky Infiltrashun Kit removing energy drain from infiltration on top of granting an extra 50 energy and the Grapplin Hook ability, there's not even much need of being conservative with energy before pulling off the combo.

It's kinda expensive at 200/60 (and tier 2), but so much wiping potential... I mean, all of sudden, teleporting Mekboy with Elektrik Armor pales in comparison to this, and that's already a quite good counter to low health (ranged) blobs.

Just my 2 cents.

[Torpid]

Well that needs solving some how because anyone who argues it's balanced is just blind.

Anyway back to the more pertinent issue here (because more people are doing it) - the painboy.

I just had a game with Bad Ash and this thing is just joke. Orks do fantastic dps, but they bleed to compensate for it, the painboy is really solving this problem fantastically. The thing just does way too much dps to start with, 40 power melee dps with a DOT, or is it 50 like some people have been saying? Either way it's way too high for his price 30 power!

Then he doesn't bleed at all being a commander and all, then he can heal sluggas to make them able to spearhead an assault with losing any models or take down another melee squad without losing models, or with the stupid t2 super doomblast ability take on ogryns without losing a model (with the HOT as well). Then he gives off a natural healing aura which he just shouldn't have at all. This thing costs 30 power, why does he have so much freaking utility out of the gate? He makes the librarian sit on the floor and cry.

Is no-one else seeing this? It's ridiculous, orks can cheaply and efficiently now get a t1 with three extremely durable,bleed proof melee squads (WB,pain,slugs) and then have two fully upgraded shoota squads to back it up. Then if you get infantry in t2 they get a WeBo, if you get a vehicle they obv get their AV on their leader and tankbustas, that's assuming you managed to keep map control and aren't too far behind in which case a burna deff dread in your farm at the start of t2 will seal the deal.

It's just too much, this unit is ridiculous at the moment. How can something that you get in t1 for 30 power be far more useful by default than a fully kitted out apothecary... The painboy's heal is more useful than the apo's, his dps is better in t1 than the apo's is in t2 with his axe, and he even gets purification rites in t2 like the apo (but better)... What are the cons in investing in this thing? There are none, like I said stormboys aren't so great anyway since orks already have suppression counters, it costs 30 power, it prevents bleed, doesn't cause bleed itself, and orks have good AV without needing lootas too.

[Kvek]

Apo's purification doesn't kill the model, Apo's heal should be used when tacs have lower health, Painboy should be used as soon as possible.

Apo can spam heals with Axe+purity+Purification .

[Ace of Swords]

Btw, the painboy HoT is still broken outside the WB, my painboy healed almost to full a Kommando nob with about 100 hp, but i guess that this is a problem only when the apo is doing it right?

[Vapor]

If you really think this is not OP, why not just go ahead and say Mek should be able to trigger mega rumblah, and then teleport in? Because that sounds balanced, right?

Mmmm, I love me some Kabuse

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

So I'm reading this about Orks generating red automatically and that being somewhat unfair even though their performance rely heavily on red.

I have a suggestion to this issue, seeing how Orks always seem to able to drop a rokks down in Tier 3 seems to be a bit unbalanced if they haven't been spamming their globals wildly throughout the game.
So hear me out here, what if, there was a limit cap to how much red they could generate automatically, so when their red reached this level it would stop generating until it was below this point?
That way the orks can't just sit on their arses without having to kill anything and still have a rokks ready late game. I was thinking the auto generate cap would be somewhere around 300-350 red for starters then it would stop auto generating until it went below that again. Presuming it is possible to change it to this.

PS. Just saw that clip with the Knob, hmm yea that seems totally balanced.

[Asmon]

If you are refering to torpid's message that was sarcasm from him. The fact that Orkz generate red by default has little to do with the amount of red they are actually able to collect.

It is the high number of models that die, associated with the relatively high red per death and low reinforcement cost on every model; that is what makes Orkz collect red very quickly. Then you have to take into account their opponents as for instance Tyranids will obviously further increase the red generation much more than SM would. But this is irrelevant to Ork balance.

What is relevant is in what way has Ork economy been made to let them get red easily and spend it on their abilities. Also, how cost-effective red-wise can abilities be considered. Here we have quite a lot of things to discuss: reinforcement costs, Whaaag, AwD, More Dakka, Kommando call-in come to my mind particularly.

[Kvek]

I started maining the warboss, and i usually spend more than 250 red on UYC/AB
But i have always enough red for CDB etc.

[Lag]

If you are refering to torpid's message that was sarcasm from him. The fact that Orkz generate red by default has little to do with the amount of red they are actually able to collect.

It is the high number of models that die, associated with the relatively high red per death and low reinforcement cost on every model; that is what makes Orkz collect red very quickly. Then you have to take into account their opponents as for instance Tyranids will obviously further increase the red generation much more than SM would. But this is irrelevant to Ork balance.

What is relevant is in what way has Ork economy been made to let them get red easily and spend it on their abilities. Also, how cost-effective red-wise can abilities be considered. Here we have quite a lot of things to discuss: reinforcement costs, Whaaag, AwD, More Dakka, Kommando call-in come to my mind particularly.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[SquadBroken]

So the best way to deal with the Painboy in t1 is suppression teams...

The Painboy is a pain in the arse and should either have his melee dps reduced, from say 50 power-melee down to about 35 or 40 or so, or have his armor changed, he appears to have commander armor, which means that there is probably nothing for a space marine to use to counter a Painboy in t1.

Could anyone enlighten me on this? I'm not new, but I'm not an expert either, just really curious as to how to deal with this vile Greenskin so that he doesn't end up slaying my Battle-Brothers.

[Dark Riku]

The painboy is kinda over the top.
His heal makes sluggas in T1 undamageable :/

Not sure what his armour is. But the site states it's commander armour.
And it feels that way in game.

A heavy bolter works as long as the Ork doesn't use:
Stormboys
Aiming? Wotz Dat?
Mek TP
KN stunbomb/tie up in melee.
Now I'm angry+Heal

Best is to just focus the painboy. (if that's possible)
Or just back of if he heals since there is no way to damage the squad he heals.
Using disruption as much as you can. Battlecry and shotgun scouts.


And I'm kinda sad to see no changes for the Painboy yet in 2.2.
Nor a change to the Warp Vomit for the Weirdboy

[Torpid]

The painboy is kinda over the top.

And I'm kinda sad to see no changes for the Painboy yet in 2.2.
Nor a change to the Warp Vomit for the Weirdboy

+1

[MyMe]

The painboy just makes sluggas do something in t1. Oh no, instead of bleeding 3 models before they get into the fight (and getting wiped in the ensuing melee), they can actually make an impact. Like Caeltos said in the other post he made tonight, painboy builds can be very power heavy. The painboy is new and people still aren't used to him I guess, but fighting him, you only see one aspect of it, and people fail to see the opportunity cost of obtaining him. Oh no, 50 power melee dps or w/e... stormboyz have 150 (?) power melee dps and can jump. His heal is op? Sluggas still cant do shit if suppressed or knockdowned, and there are plenty of ways to control dedicated melee like them.

I need to start going into other races forums and start complaining about how broken every fucking thing they have is because I can't adapt against it.

[FiSH]

I need to start going into other races forums and start complaining about how broken every fucking thing they have is because I can't adapt against it.

nerf thunderhammer plz too op
jk

[Kvek]

Painboy up plx buffs.
I think the DoT should be removed from his attacks :p
give it back when he buys the improved heal
Apo counters him with the bolter (no damage) upgrade.
TM-MCB to bleed sluggas=lower regen. +Suppression
and FC well he has BC (power sword)

[Lag]

The painboy just makes sluggas do something in t1. Oh no, instead of bleeding 3 models before they get into the fight (and getting wiped in the ensuing melee), they can actually make an impact. Like Caeltos said in the other post he made tonight, painboy builds can be very power heavy. The painboy is new and people still aren't used to him I guess, but fighting him, you only see one aspect of it, and people fail to see the opportunity cost of obtaining him. Oh no, 50 power melee dps or w/e... stormboyz have 150 (?) power melee dps and can jump. His heal is op? Sluggas still cant do shit if suppressed or knockdowned, and there are plenty of ways to control dedicated melee like them.

I need to start going into other races forums and start complaining about how broken every fucking thing they have is because I can't adapt against it.

Storms bleed.
I switched back to Ork so I can safely say they are op. They are op.

[Torpid]

The painboy just makes sluggas do something in t1. Oh no, instead of bleeding 3 models before they get into the fight (and getting wiped in the ensuing melee), they can actually make an impact. Like Caeltos said in the other post he made tonight, painboy builds can be very power heavy. The painboy is new and people still aren't used to him I guess, but fighting him, you only see one aspect of it, and people fail to see the opportunity cost of obtaining him. Oh no, 50 power melee dps or w/e... stormboyz have 150 (?) power melee dps and can jump. His heal is op? Sluggas still cant do shit if suppressed or knockdowned, and there are plenty of ways to control dedicated melee like them.

I need to start going into other races forums and start complaining about how broken every fucking thing they have is because I can't adapt against it.

Storms bleed.
I switched back to Ork so I can safely say they are op. They are op.

I had never played orks competitively before in my entire life. A few days ago I decided to pick them up for the same reason. Oh, guess what? I'm instantly beating high level players even better than I can with IG/SM.

Regarding storms, storms bleed power per death, and a ton of req. The painboy NEGATES bleed from your other squads and doesn't bleed himself, he can negate stormboy bleed. Sluggas should suck, they cost 270req, what do you want them to do, be able to fly across the map and insta-gib tactical marines? But then you give them that heal and suddenly they just don't die and the only way to deal with them is to control them, so you need shotguns/devs and end up spending loads of power and the ork can just counter it with their leader+storms, since as already discussed earlier in this thread all ork leaders can easily deal with suppression, not to mention how fast suppression teams get killed by storms, I mean, they literally kill it in 4 seconds, 2 with UYC.

[MyMe]

The painboy just makes sluggas do something in t1. Oh no, instead of bleeding 3 models before they get into the fight (and getting wiped in the ensuing melee), they can actually make an impact. Like Caeltos said in the other post he made tonight, painboy builds can be very power heavy. The painboy is new and people still aren't used to him I guess, but fighting him, you only see one aspect of it, and people fail to see the opportunity cost of obtaining him. Oh no, 50 power melee dps or w/e... stormboyz have 150 (?) power melee dps and can jump. His heal is op? Sluggas still cant do shit if suppressed or knockdowned, and there are plenty of ways to control dedicated melee like them.

I need to start going into other races forums and start complaining about how broken every fucking thing they have is because I can't adapt against it.

Storms bleed.
I switched back to Ork so I can safely say they are op. They are op.

I had never played orks competitively before in my entire life. A few days ago I decided to pick them up for the same reason. Oh, guess what? I'm instantly beating high level players even better than I can with IG/SM.

Regarding storms, storms bleed power per death, and a ton of req. The painboy NEGATES bleed from your other squads and doesn't bleed himself, he can negate stormboy bleed. Sluggas should suck, they cost 270req, what do you want them to do, be able to fly across the map and insta-gib tactical marines? But then you give them that heal and suddenly they just don't die and the only way to deal with them is to control them, so you need shotguns/devs and end up spending loads of power and the ork can just counter it with their leader+storms, since as already discussed earlier in this thread all ork leaders can easily deal with suppression, not to mention how fast suppression teams get killed by storms, I mean, they literally kill it in 4 seconds, 2 with UYC.

I don't know who you were playing, but I have never had problems against orks. I realize sluggas are cheap- Spending 350/30 to make them not suck quite as bad is hardly OP. Complaining about needing to control them is like complaining about needing to buy vehicle counters when a vehicle comes out; OF COURSE you're going to need to rethink strategies to counter what the other person has purchased. Every time I see a painboy come out against me I buy a suppression team, and not yet has that failed me. If they buy stormboyz as well, they're pretty invested into t1 and you need to either buy more or get a quick vehicle if possible.

And switching to a race for a little while and doing well with them does not constitute OP. Maybe they are more your playstyle, or maybe your opponent is caught off guard, w/e. I rarely play SM or IG, but I feel damned invincible with my 900 hp guardsman and an unbleeding sentinal, or my 3 member 1050 hp squad that never drop models. But I don't go around calling OP, because they are a different race that plays differently. Don't play orks, see their dps, and instantly think it's broken. It's what they do, and when well managed can seem devastating. But every other race, when well played, can appear OP to people who don't main them as well.

[Lag]

I mained Ork and stopped playing them because they were ridiculously stupidly op. They are less so now but they still wreak havoc too much. I wonder how the Shoota nerf will pan out, it might be just the right amount of tweaking.

[Torpid]

I feel like I'm going in circles with you here as everything I need to say in response to your comment I've already said earlier on in the thread. Also, when I said I played orks a few days ago, I meant I took a weeks time to play orks exclusively in 1v1. Like I said, I've beat very high level players with ease consistently, I'm not just doing well with them, that's a serious understatement.

Also you aren't spending 350/30 to make sluggas useful in head-on combat. You are spending 350/30 to make sluggas extremely powerful anti-jump unit counters and line breakers, while simultaneously getting another durable, high dps, unbleedable melee unit with a health regen aura that supports your other boys and with great scalability in t2.

I think you misunderstand the problem of needing to invest so much in 'control'. Orks can deal with suppression without storms, but storms require you to get a third scout and have the other two baby-sitting your devs, which makes you very immobile and lets the shootas conquer the entire map since shoota>scouts. So basically the ork can just rush a DD and GG you. This is why snipers I assume don't work (although I'm yet to try them). I mean snipers make your squad useless at capping and cost 35 power, not a very good long term investment. They also don't help control a charging WB like shotguns do, and if they aren't the WB then they have other natural suppression counters anyway. Besides snipers are horrible units really, they don't fit in with the DOW gameplay at all, any unit that encourages snipers to be built should be shot.

Oh and also please don't pursue the "my race is UP" thing, I try to view things objectively because I don't main any specific race, although I am most experienced with IG/SM.

[MyMe]

Of course we're going in circles; you have your view, and I have mine. You think orks are OP, I disagree. I doubt any amount of back and forth posting is going to change either of our minds.

I'm just kinda sick of everyone bashing on orks. Why don't we just remove big shootas, make the painboy have 300 hp, halve the dps on stormboyz, and hell just remove the weirdboy. That way, anytime you fight an ork you can just cream him. That's what it sounds like everyone wants to me.

[Lag]

People are bashing on Orks because they have been imbalanced for long enough for people to react to the tiniest imbalance.

[Ace of Swords]

What we want is painboy moved to T2 and be a choice between weirdboy and painboy as it stands now it's ridicolous and counters everything.

There is also the fact that the recent additions to both orks and nids made this equation true:

Nids = Orks > Eldar > Chaos > IG = SM.

There was a bunch of addition that just completely removed any weak side those races add and was totally uncalled for.