Ork Topic

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Kvek
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Kvek » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 6:14 am

Health regen 50power melee with DoT-not easy to take down=perfectly fine
I agree with Torpid i am playing a lot of Meks these days. And i feel like the painboy is Over-performing in t1 with his sluggas
Even tho they have a dev squad in t2 you will get a weirdboy that counters it easily
or you just keep meleeing them with your mekboy
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Torpid » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 1:52 pm

MyMe wrote:Keep in mind that an ork player usually has to choose between a painboy and lootas/stormboys unless he goes for a very heavy t1 (seeing as big shootas are more or less a required 40 power used already). Yes, the painboy is good at what he does in t1, but stormboyz(and probably lootas) can do a hell of a lot more damage. I see the painboy as kind of a squad leader for sluggas, kind of an early nob in a way. Makes them worthwhile, and he can do decent damage in melee (a good jump troop counter, which I don't see as a problem given how asm can kick the shit out of sluggas in t1, they can use all the help they can get). Painboy is perfectly fine in my eyes, you just need to get used to his melee proficiency and perhaps go with a set up squad against him, which would with force the orks to invest further in stormboys or deal with being controlled constantly.


If ASM are kicking the shit out of sluggas in t1 then you aren't playing orks right. All the ork heroes have a method of buffing sluggas to make them beat asm in 1v1 combat and therefore in a counter-initiation role. Warboss can contribute dmaage with the bang bang hammer, which not only does 75dps in t1 but the buff makes the nearby ork blob destroy asm in a second (imagine a waaaaaaghhhh on top of it), or the warboss could use cybork implants then slugs w/ burnas + 2x shootas just decimate the asm. Mekboy has a battery pack to buff the sluggas. Kommando nob can try to stun the asm with the help of aiming wotz dat, then the sluggas attack, or now in elite mod hecan just sit by the sluggas with his knife and they both will own asm. In the meantime any scouts that come support get focused down by shootas, and the FC is suppressed by aming wotz dat while the apo/tm is just focused down.

This is how orks dealt with ASM before and it was absolutely fine. The SM player had to try and position his army perfectly to counter this, he had to have a shotgun scout flank, tacs w/ flamer right in between the shootas, have his leader ready to support the asm or else he would lose a few models and therefore the engagement, but it was balanced. The painboy kills this completely. 40dps power melee WITH A DOT is a joke in t1. I don't know if you play SM but that thing alone butchers asm. With a bang bang hammer nearby, burna sluggas (cheaper in the next patch remember, and got buffed from retail since they are better vs buildings/gens now) and wagggh, asm die in seconds. They are literally useless, and the best bit is that the painboy's heal negates all ork bleed.

You say the lack of stormboys is an issue for orks? Not really. All ork leaders have natural suppression counters. Knob stun nade, mekboy melee-teleport, warboss angry bitz. Add in the fact that you have double shootas with aiming wotz dat and suppression is not so effective, then add in the heal from the painboy so your mek can melee for longer/your warboss can easily tank the suppression damage while charging. Lootas also aren't needed because unlike all the other races orks have some of the best non-set up team AV(except storms I guess) - tankbustas. Kommando nob gets no t2 AV choice, but he can get infiltrated tankbustas. Warboss has the worst t2 AV, he only has his claw, but bustas do their job and a wartrukk is a good choice for any warboss player since sluggas+UYC getting out of a wartrukk is very scary anyway, but yeah trukkbustas are awesome AV (trukks getting a price reduction next patch). Mek has his beamy deffgun, basically you don't need suppression as orks.

Now even though I seem to be blathering on about how orks are OP, no they aren't. It's just vs SM they are now. The race itself is in quite a good position were it not to have a unit that hard counters its only weakness in t1. How do we solve this problem? Simple, either remove the painboy from the game, or move the painboy into t2, buff his damage and give him a price increase.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Raffa » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 4:14 pm

@Torpid

You can have your opinions, but what you're writing just isn't true. A few of my favourites:

That Torpid Gamer wrote:If ASM are kicking the shit out of sluggas in t1 then you aren't playing orks right...

the best bit is that the painboy's heal negates all ork bleed...

basically you don't need suppression as orks...

even though I seem to be blathering on about how orks are OP, no they aren't. It's just vs SM they are...


I disagree with you on everything. Except painboy dot.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby FiSH » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 5:12 pm

also, about angry bits countering setup teams:
any good player will deal with that thing called "charge" just fine with a simple knockback or just suppress the boss. What a puny charge for someone called a Warboss... Look at HT's charge, now that's a charge!

I'm perfectly aware that HT's charge is more expensive. I'm just saying that angry bits does not counter suppression teams in general.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Torpid » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 8:55 pm

@ Raffa - Please elaborate then on what isn't true. That would be far more productive than pulling quotes out of their context and lining them up in front of the firing squad.

If you're complaining about ASM beating sluggas then you're doing something wrong. Sluggas cost 270 whereas asm cost 450/50 of course asm beat sluggas...

When I say 'all' I'm referring to all slugga bleed from fighting, which is does... while itself, unlike stormboys doesn't bleed at all.

Orks don't NEED suppression. They are like IG that way, none of there MUs require them to get suppression. They already have enough ranged dps/anti melee in t1 and the scalibility of suppression as an AV function isn't needed for orks.

Orks > SM. That's true at the moment.

@Fish - Yeah, sure the charge alone isn't a suppression counter. But add in aiming wotz dat on the suppression team and the painboys heal over time and it turns into a very cost effective suppression counter.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Kvek » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 9:01 pm

ASM>Ranged
Melee>ASM
Sluggas with some little support beat ASM pretty nicely
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby MyMe » Tue 25 Jun, 2013 10:00 pm

I am well aware of the tools orks have to help counter jump squads and I realize the price differences of asm and sluggas. What's wrong with a 350/30 investment to have sluggas counter the unit that shuts down half the ork's army (shootas)? That's 685/50 power for burna sluggas/painboy, I would hope they punish jump troops, it's largely their role, at least it's how I try to use them.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby dance commander » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 1:09 am

That Torpid Gamer wrote:
@Fish - Yeah, sure the charge alone isn't a suppression counter. But add in aiming wotz dat on the suppression team and the painboys heal over time and it turns into a very cost effective suppression counter.


That's a lot of power.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 1:32 am

Except you already have all those units/upgrades in the first place to counter ASM/scouts...
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 1:44 am

Painboy is way to good in it's curretn state.
Why does he do 50DPS power melee and have DoT?

To compare him with the apo:
He has 800HP instead of 600.
He does power melee (50dps vs 25piercing) AND has a DoT.
His standard heal is better 180HoT(12sec)+30/model= 210/model instead of 110/model. And come T2 he doubles it with an upgrade. :/
It's even better than the old 'Ave a taste.
(Only 10HP more though) For a total of 410HP/model heal :/
And we all agreed that was way too good, especially on nobs.


FiSH wrote:also, about angry bits countering setup teams:
any good player will deal with that thing called "charge" just fine with a simple knockback or just suppress the boss. What a puny charge for someone called a Warboss... Look at HT's charge, now that's a charge!
Actually combined with the heal of the painboy he will charge through suppression with ease.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:If you're complaining about ASM beating sluggas then you're doing something wrong. Sluggas cost 270 whereas asm cost 450/50 of course asm beat sluggas...
Actually... Don't sluggas beat asm when they waagh?
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Asmon » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 2:34 am

Dark Riku wrote:Actually... Don't sluggas beat asm when they waagh?


No. They would barely kill a model depending on the number of specials.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Kvek » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 5:38 am

Meh
Painboy+Sluggas>almost every t1 melee unit
With Mek he is even bigger pain. Since mek teleport counters setup./can heal twice
Maybe sluggas don't beat asm in a brawl
But with Painboy they won't lose a single model
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 9:56 am

Warboss with Angry Bitz + Painboy's heal = Warboss can charge against HWT/Devastator/Havocs losing a few HP.

With Angry Bitz + Stronga Git Sauce the Warboss can reach the HWT/Devastator/Havocs without losing health, ignoring the damage even at miminum range thanks to the crazy HP regeneration combo.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby FiSH » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 10:43 am

I don't think painboy+WB combo is the main reason why painboy is considered too powerful. In any case a simple knockback ends the charge, and not having suppression and knockback available against a warboss is not a good idea anyways.
I think the discussion needs to be more focused on the synergy of painboy with shootas & sluggas.
Would the painboy be at a better spot if DoT was removed, and he was left in T1? Because I'd probably never get the painboy if he was moved to T2, weirdboy would just overshadow this little guy IMO.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Indrid » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 12:16 pm

His damage is I think bordering on the too much but I think needs a bit more time to settle in. He obviously has power_melee to help Orks deal with Raptors/ASM, and he certainly seems to rip through Raptors by himself making him a somewhat hard counter alone without the need for supporting sluggas. It's a tough one because he's gone from everyone proclaiming him as useless to now proclaiming him OP with the DPS increase he got a few updates ago. Very delicate.

Stacking up on suppression seems like the obvious thing to do against PB + Sluggas, since getting a Painboy + double shootas + Stormboyz is quite a heavy T1, unless perhaps you leave your Shootas un-upgraded. That Ork T1 against a double set-up build I think comes down to player skill/micro at that point and is a pretty fair and interesting engagement with shotgun scouts/AC tics in amongst it. Yes you can teleport in a Mek which does skew things but there are ways to deal with it. Get some KB on him with Battlecry, or use TM wargear. I think the Apo has the hardest time perhaps requiring double ASM for the sluggas/stormboyz alongside his bolter for the Ork comm, which would be a frightfully heavy T1 if there were also devs/upgraded scouts.

The PB is now a genuine threat and you need to treat him as such, don't send in your Raptors/ASM against him without very good support.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Kvek » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 12:40 pm

I would remove the DoT from his melee and give it back when he uses the health/speed/damage upgrade.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby MyMe » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 1:46 pm

Kvek wrote:I would remove the DoT from his melee and give it back when he uses the health/speed/damage upgrade.


That's actually a pretty reasonable suggestion, keeping him still relatively strong in t1 but not killing his scaling potential later on. I certainly don't think it should just be outright removed completely.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Asmon » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 2:25 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:With Angry Bitz + Stronga Git Sauce the Warboss can reach the HWT/Devastator/Havocs without losing health, ignoring the damage even at miminum range thanks to the crazy HP regeneration combo.


Stop saying this again and again. This is just bad play from those who do not focus down the WB at max range. Of course if you start shooting him while he's already run half the distance you will find quite hard to force him off.

Chaos havoc for instance will slow his advance pretty well if they target him from the start.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 2:44 pm

Painboy is a T2 unit, plain and simple, he should be mutually exclusive with the weirdboy and they would cover 2 different roles, the weirdboy would protect ranged armies with his attack/vomit/AoE speed to kite, the painboy would support melee armies his heal and give them an edge with the explosion which is actually a better doomblast, to match this change since the weirdboy is too good and easy to use at the moment warp vomit would now affect allied units.
Last edited by Ace of Swords on Wed 26 Jun, 2013 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 3:08 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Painboy is a T2 unit, plain and simple, he should be mutually exclusive with the weirdboy and they would cover 2 different roles, the weirdboy would protect ranged armieri with his attack/vomit/AoE speed to kite, the painboy would support melee armies his heal and give them an edge with the explosion which is actually a better doomblast, to match this change since the weirdboy is too good and easy to use at the moment warp vomit would now affect allied units.


+1
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby FiSH » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 3:34 pm

@Ace of Swords & Torpid Gamer

I disagree with that statement. For example, in the SM MU, hellfire rounds SHRED through orkz, and the most effective way to combat sternguards is to get weirdboy if you don't already have stormboys. Now, if the SM opponent also has ASMs, and if your commander is not WB, then your weirdboy/shootas are in some trouble if weirdboy and painboy are exclusive.
Seriously, "painboy is overperforming in T1 so just move him to T2" argument needs to take into account changes that other races have had in T2 in the elite mod.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Kvek » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 4:44 pm

Fish please use 1v1 perspective
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby FiSH » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 4:56 pm

How is what I said 2v2 and 3v3 specific?
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 5:34 pm

FiSH wrote:How is what I said 2v2 and 3v3 specific?

Because wasting 55 power and 175 req on sterns when a deff dred is rushing on your farm as soon as the ork hits T2 doesn't make them viable.

Beside as of now you can get BOTH the painboy and the weirdboy, and the weirdboy has no problems at all controlling the sterns while the painboy approaches them for sheer rape.
And this is extremely unbalanced, nobody should be able to field 2 subcommanders that are this powerful and obviously do not bleed at all.

By the way, the libby does 60 power melee damage, the painboy 50+dot, the damage is pretty much the same, shall we move the libby in T1 while leaving his upgrades to T2? Sounds balanced doesn't it ? :)
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Kvek » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 5:58 pm

Yup make his smite a weaker+ buff it with the force staff
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Vapor » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 6:26 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
Beside as of now you can get BOTH the painboy and the weirdboy, and the weirdboy has no problems at all controlling the sterns while the painboy approaches them for sheer rape.
And this is extremely unbalanced, nobody should be able to field 2 subcommanders that are this powerful and obviously do not bleed at all.



lol make it so theres a unit called "Da Boy" and you can swap between Weird and Pain modes. :|
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Caeltos » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 7:40 pm

I'm sort of surprised there's such an outcry on the painboy just recently. He's been pretty much doing what he's been doing for quite some time. I'm sure it's just a spike of useage that occured.

It's easy to promote the strength of the unit, but you should also at the same time present the cons of the unit investment in t1 as well, otherwise- it's like talking to a brick wall if you want to get a message through.

Hey, at least he isn't commander type, and has a jump pack in t1. *Hint* :mrgreen:

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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Asmon » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 7:55 pm

Painboy belongs to T1, and is countered by a mere suppression team. Nothing to add. Moving him to T2 is a nonsense.
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 8:15 pm

Asmon wrote:
Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:With Angry Bitz + Stronga Git Sauce the Warboss can reach the HWT/Devastator/Havocs without losing health, ignoring the damage even at miminum range thanks to the crazy HP regeneration combo.


Stop saying this again and again. This is just bad play from those who do not focus down the WB at max range. Of course if you start shooting him while he's already run half the distance you will find quite hard to force him off.

Chaos havoc for instance will slow his advance pretty well if they target him from the start.


LOL? How many times I said this in 104 post in this forum? 0, maybe 1? Yes, I have been soooooooo insistent.

It's not a "bad play". The Havocs could been shooting other squad. Maybe it's not a Havoc squad which instant suppress. And even if you start shooting him at max range, he could give a fuck and reach the HWT if he has enough health + the Stronga Git Sauce on him.

And you forget some things, Asmon.

- Warboss under Now I'm Angry moves with 6.5 speed. Except you have lighting reflextions or Divine micro, it's very difficult to change the current HWT target (of course, except you are facing a noob player and sent the Warboss first to get suppressed)

- The Warboss create Light Cover craters, which increases even more the natural commander' resistance to suppression_pvp damage.

- I'm going to say it again, the CRAZY hp regeneration with the combo. Because it's simply crazy that you can heal your commander from almost dead to full health with that combo. With the Now I'm Angry + Stronga Git Sauce you can heal the Warboss like 1800 - 1900 HP.

Seriously, I'm the only who thinks that this deserve an adjust? Really?
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Re: Ork Topic

Postby FiSH » Wed 26 Jun, 2013 8:26 pm

allow me to do some theorycrafting:
Ace of Swords wrote:Because wasting 55 power and 175 req on sterns when a deff dred is rushing on your farm as soon as the ork hits T2 doesn't make them viable.

deff dred's power cost is on par with sterns, req is more pricy. on top of that, in order to make deff dreds effective at gen bashing, extra power investments into burna is needed. also, stern upgrade's incremental. get serg, see deff dread, get las cannon, problem solved. deff dred rush is a good tactic, but not a "i win and you lose" option.
now if the ork opponent also has storms, and beat you to a burna-upgraded deff dred when you have no answer but a lascannon waiting to be jumped, i have some bad news, and the game was probably already lost in T1.

Ace of Swords wrote:Beside as of now you can get BOTH the painboy and the weirdboy, and the weirdboy has no problems at all controlling the sterns while the painboy approaches them for sheer rape.

no, painboy does not approach. wasn't the whole point of this discussion about how painboy and slugga are counter-initiative against jump troops? honestly, just engage, do your best to force off weirdboy: you may lose one ASM model or so, but now the weirdboy is gone, and hellfire rounds are bleeding orkz profusely.

Ace of Swords wrote:And this is extremely unbalanced, nobody should be able to field 2 subcommanders that are this powerful and obviously do not bleed at all.

simply saying that 2 subcommanders is not ok is not what ELITE mod is about, it is about allowing different builds to occur to accommodate different playstyles. if bleed is an issue, the upkeep for those subcommanders is something that can be tweaked, but simply saying NO to different tactics is a very lame way to approach balance issues. In fact, it's as lame as the retail Swamp 'Em IMO.

Ace of Swords wrote:By the way, the libby does 60 power melee damage, the painboy 50+dot, the damage is pretty much the same, shall we move the libby in T1 while leaving his upgrades to T2? Sounds balanced doesn't it ? :)

Sure, why don't we also give the painboy some range attacks and awesome spells, that sounds good to me. In fact, why don't we move libby to T1 and then combine painboy and weirdboy into one (frozen is onto something here) :lol:

TL:DR version:
exclusive option between painboy and weirdboy is lame, boring, and is not what ELITE mod is about. there are better ways to tweak the SM vs orkz MU.
Last edited by FiSH on Wed 26 Jun, 2013 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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