Ork Topic

[dance commander]

45 power would be ridiculous now. It isn't overpriced, it is fine how it is. The bloodcrusher is a really good unit still, and can, with good micro, survive quite well throughout the whole of t2.

Meh, I'm not even arguing about the price I'm talking about both changes are overkill, either revert the time or the price, since both changes were not made based on how the unit perferms but on how fast it was able to get on the field, why is say it's overkill? Well you can see it based on how its usage dropped tremendously even compared to retail (no more kb on retreat, wich was not fine, but it's a nerf nonetheless).

Anyway just pointing that out for the guys comparing the price and effectivenes, gonna close that topic now.

[Spartan717]

Just wondering how people would feel if orks received another globle ability.

I was thinking about having an ability that spawns a squad of flash gitz at a position.

Red Cost: 300-400 red?
Tier: 3
Resources Cost: 400 req
Availability: All heroes

The reason I'm suggesting this is because I find myself accumulating alot of red as orks and wanting to push forward, without having to create another unit and then trekking across map. Nobs would be another unit that may be implemented as globle, but I don't like the fact that they are too similar to terminators (ie. tanky strong guys).

Another idea is spawning/dropping a WAAGH banner at a position. This would be somewhat similar to tyranid infestations which buff nearby units.


Interested to here what people think.

[FiSH]

i am not entirely sure how this call-down idea will fit in to the whole scheme, but 300-400 red and 400 req seems too expensive, especially when the flashgitz are just 450/60 iirc.
on the other hand, the waagh banner idea seems cool, but overpowered. since orkz use the red to fight better, having the red turn into waagh banner will be very similar to the capillary towers generating red, and we all know what happened to that.

[Ace of Swords]

You should never float red as orks, start using your globals/waagh propely.

[Asmon]

Wut? Unless you're WB and using your globals in every skirmish you must be floating red as Orkz. That's why they can throw a rokz almost every time they hit T3.

[KanKrusha]

I've always thought Warboss should have wartrukk+shoota squad global drop. This would be better in Elite now that shootas scale better in tier 2

[Ace of Swords]

Wut? Unless you're WB and using your globals in every skirmish you must be floating red as Orkz. That's why they can throw a rokz almost every time they hit T3.

You call da boyz is 250 red and aviable to every commander, atleast once a game you should be using it it's an incredible global, then the mek has the knockback thing, it's very powerful even when used on normal squads it has also the global increase speed on vehicles, again a very powerful global, the KB nob can infiltrate left and right, i've seen it used to save squads too, so no, you should not be floating unless you aren't using your globals and orks abilities, between waagh,rampage, aiming wotz that and so on.

[FiSH]

that's not the point here, maybe you are floating red, maybe you aren't. who cares how you play your orkz...
but the point is, should all ork commanders have a call-down option. having a call-down option doesn't necessarily mean that you suck at using abilities as orkz, it can mean that you just save your red for a call-down at the end.

[caralimon]

Ok, here's a little think I've been thinking about, Mekboy and his Kustom Force Field.

My understanding is it is a bit underwhelming in Retail as a T2 accesory upgrade at 100/25, hence why its ranged damage protection was increased from 50% to 70% and the knockback type changed from weapon to ability. This is the tricky part:

In retail, your KFF-activated Mekboy can not only be tied up in melee by weapon-knockback immune units such as an Iron Halo FC, but also can be knocked back/down by melee charging units, such as the ever-charging Autarch.

So, my understanding is this happens because charge attacks like the Autarch one do ability-knockback and Kustom Force Field only provides weapon-knockback immunity, right?

Charge attacks that inflict knockback are still ability knockback in ELITE, right?

If all this is right, the current scenario in ELITE is this, an Iron Halo/Termmie FC gets knocked back by a KFF Mekboy, so do terminators and all other weapon-knockback only immune infantry in game. BUT, normal charging melee units like the Autarch can still knock him back and de-setup him if the Mekboy is sporting a Deffgun.

Is this right? Does it feel right that Termmies can't reach (and potentially desetup) a KFF Mekboy but an Autarch can knock him back?

All this comes from getting sick of seeing my active-KFF Mekboy being knocked back over and over by Autarchs and the likes in Retail. I can't test this against the AI in ELITE, but from reading ELITE change notes it seems it is still the case.

The way i see it, Elektrik Armor is an offensive oriented WarGear against blobby ranged races, while KFF is a more defensive Upgrade more suited to be combined with DeffGun, but as it is (in Retail at least) it doesn't quite do its intended job. If I'm not messing up somewhere, I would happily trade the buff from weapon to ability knockback for weapon+ablility-knockback immunity.

The rationale is this, if I let an Iron Halo FC (or a CL) walk up (possibly through my DeffGun fire-arc) to my KFF Mekboy and spank him, i deserve to have him spanked. But my KFF Mekboy deserves to be immune to those damn Autarch charges, they should be knocked back by my Force Field before reaching me in the first place.

Please correct me if I messed up any of my assumptions.

[Kvek]

Autarch doesn't do Ability Knockback she just has a leap that does Knockback.
Charging units (BloodCrushers) can knockback him.

the force field only does Weapon Knockback

[caralimon]

-.-

I am NOT talking about the Autarch Leap Ability. I know she does weapon-knockback with her Leap, I'm talking about some High Melee skill units such as the Autarch that DO ability-knockback with their melee charges, as of:

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_knockback#Knockback

- Ability knockback is a special effect which also affects retreating units and Terminators. It is caused by charge attacks, global nukes, walker vehicle special attacks, Devastator plasma cannons and some abilities. Ability knockback can be used to stop and wipe out retreating units.

The Force Field now DOES Ability Knockback according to: http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... gelog_full

-Force Field Overcharge knockback type changed from weapon to ability

....


After looking a bit at the .RBF file, it might be the case that revamped KFF does indeed now give Weapon+Ability-knockback immunity, but it's not noted in the changelog. I can't see a way to test it against AI :/

[Kvek]

Okay it does ability knockback.
I'm talking about some High Melee skill units such as the Autarch that DO ability-knockback with their melee charges-What the Fuck?

What do you mean by "melee charge" ?
There are no melee charges that knockback
Only charges like fex Thornback etc.
Autarch never did Ability KB

[Codex]

I believe caralimon is talking about the Autarch's native leap into melee combat, like how warrior broods will leap into melee and knock stuff back. In that case, it's still weapon knockback. Autarch has no access to ability knockback at all.

Melee skill has nothing to do with the TYPE of knockback something does. Melee skill only affects % chance to proc weapon knockback.

[caralimon]

I believe caralimon is talking about the Autarch's native leap into melee combat, like how warrior broods will leap into melee and knock stuff back. In that case, it's still weapon knockback. Autarch has no access to ability knockback at all.

Melee skill has nothing to do with the TYPE of knockback something does. Melee skill only affects % chance to proc weapon knockback.

Yep, this is exactly what i'm talking about.

The reason why I thought it was ability knockback is because an Autarch melee leap/charge (NOT the Leap ability) does affect an active Kustom Force Field Mekboy in Retail, and I'm still scratching my head as to why it does, since he's supposed to be immune to knockback.

I just tested and it does not affect retreating units so it is indeed weapon-knockback as you said, tks for clarifying. I know melee skill has nothing to do with the TYPE of knockback, but since high melee skill units are the ones usually able to do this kind of "leap knockback", and due to the wikia page text i thought this was ability instead of weapon KB.

Anyway, if someone could test-clarify if activated Kustom Force Field Mekboy gets disrupted by Autarch/Warrior Broods melee "leaps" in ELITE I'd be thankful, I can't see a way to test it myself.

[Lulgrim]

I can't follow this clusterfuck at all. Melee skill does not affect melee charge, it affects the chance of making a special attack. Special attacks can be set to cause any type of knockback or none. If the entity even has a special attack to begin with.

The leaps (Warlock, Seer Council etc.) are a variant of melee charge, which is dictated by range/cooldown. They can be set to cause any type of knockback or none (ASM, Stormboyz). I've never seen a melee charge with ability kb, though.

This is not to be confused with charge abilities (Bloodcrusher, Fex etc.) which are triggered by clicking on some buttonz. They generally do ability knockback, but guess what, they can be set to any type of kb or none.

I will replace all avatar images with pic of dog saying I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TYPING.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

it's not that bad lulgrim; i'll translate for you if you need.

[caralimon]

Thanks to Torpid Inquisitor I was able to test Force Field Overcharge vs Warrior Brood's KB leaps and the Mekboy wasn't disprupted by them. I would guess the Autarch leap won't either , so my gripe is resolved, nothing to see here, move along.

I can't follow this clusterfuck at all.

[...]

I will replace all avatar images with pic of dog saying I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TYPING.

While you're at it delete my account as well and all of those learning the game and the mod, would you? Since the game mechanics are "oh so clear" to all of you and widely available, the game and specially the mod player base is SO BIG, who needs new players raising stupid questions and voicing their doubts, right?

I made some assumptions in my original post and asked to be corrected if any of them was wrong, so far only codex did try to help in a constructive way. The rest is "What the fuck - There are no melee charges that knockback - the force field only does Weapon Knockback" (sic) and "take this I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TYPING avatar pic".

Go on, keep giving ELITE mod and community a good reputation.

[Lulgrim]

I will try, thanks

[Raffa]

@caralimon

The thing is these forums are meant to be for raising legitimate balance complaints from players who already have a good grasp of the game. There is nothing wrong with not being at that stage, but really for you Codex is the best l2p guy and has helped many people improve hugely. I'd recommend you ask him for some sessions he'll try to find you a time if you're keen and willing to learn.

Tbh this isn't the place to insult people or to voice your opinion if you don't yet understand most aspects of the game fully. As I said there is nothing wrong with not understanding everything yet, but don't be a dick because someone has pointed out that you don't.

[Lulgrim]

To be clear I wasn't replying specifically to Limon Russ person but generally annoyed by confused dialogue. Still might change all avatars.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

To be clear I wasn't replying specifically to Limon Russ person but generally annoyed by confused dialogue. Still might change all avatars.

Hey! I have said nothing!

[Lulgrim]

Well you did now...

[Kvek]

lol

[caralimon]

Tbh this isn't the place to insult people or to voice your opinion if you don't yet understand most aspects of the game fully. As I said there is nothing wrong with not understanding everything yet, but don't be a dick because someone has pointed out that you don't.

Tell me so when I insult anyone. Don't worry though, After just 7 posts I've had enough people being a dick to me for me to ever raise a balance concern again here.

@caralimon

The thing is these forums are meant to be for raising legitimate balance complaints from players who already have a good grasp of the game.

Here's the thing, who/what determines such players? "There are no melee charges that knockback - the force field only does Weapon Knockback" Kvek? We all make mistakes and wrong assumptions after all.

Good luck with that "only leet players can discuss balance" attitude. How many registered members does this forum even have? How many players do you want discussing balance, 10?

Plenty of "dicky" reactions to balance suggestions all over the forum, and it's me who's being a Dick after asking something about a change from Retail to ELITE?

As I said, ban me from the forum for all I care, if I'm being a dick the whole forum should just banish into the Warp. No more off-topic or nonsense from me, BB.

[Raffa]

@caralimon

You are taking what I said way out of context to try to paint yourself as some sort of victim, when I was trying to be helpful to you.

@Lulgrim

Would you kindly ban this son of a bitch permanently? Thanks

[Lulgrim]

[crazyman64335]

what dictates high level players? well since most of them know eachother the list could go on and on, and would probably be the same for most of the players. Regardless, time to get back on topic.

Many people feel the painboy is fairly overpowered for the damage he brings to the table, and as much as it pains me (used to actually pick orks) they're right. The damage he brings to the table in T1 is quite absurd imo. Maybe give him that damage in a T2 upgrade or something? Just my thoughts.

[krakza]

what dictates high level players? well since most of them know eachother the list could go on and on, and would probably be the same for most of the players. Regardless, time to get back on topic.

Many people feel the painboy is fairly overpowered for the damage he brings to the table, and as much as it pains me (used to actually pick orks) they're right. The damage he brings to the table in T1 is quite absurd imo. Maybe give him that damage in a T2 upgrade or something? Just my thoughts.

He is a very strong little goon. The painboy does a hell of a lot for the mileage of the slugga squad. Fighting off heavy infantry whilst also providing incredible regen, which means I can actually use sluggas against ASMs without losing a bunch of models.

The regen however, has also been a focal point for people complaining (at least in the matches where I've used him). The regen -is- pretty huge. Unless they take some serious focus fire, the sluggas take almost no damage.

I'm no expert on this, but I'd say the painboy's damage and regen on git sauce might want to be looked at. Not that I'd be complaining if everything with him is actually all fine and dandy

[Torpid]

Yes, without going into details at the moment as it's quite late for me, I would have to agree that the painboy is far too powerful at the moment. Space marines vs Orks used to be a balanced MU but at the moment orks fair out-perform them since the painboy alone counters asm terribly well. Furthermore the painboy provides good melee synergy, the weirdboy provides good vehicle synergy and then they have their normal hero on top of it. It's all a bit too much IMO. I would suggest making the painboy a t2 purchase and removing his git-sauce upgrade, giving him a little dps buff and a small price increase. Also the painboy/weirdboy should be mutually exclusive.

[MyMe]

Keep in mind that an ork player usually has to choose between a painboy and lootas/stormboys unless he goes for a very heavy t1 (seeing as big shootas are more or less a required 40 power used already). Yes, the painboy is good at what he does in t1, but stormboyz(and probably lootas) can do a hell of a lot more damage. I see the painboy as kind of a squad leader for sluggas, kind of an early nob in a way. Makes them worthwhile, and he can do decent damage in melee (a good jump troop counter, which I don't see as a problem given how asm can kick the shit out of sluggas in t1, they can use all the help they can get). Painboy is perfectly fine in my eyes, you just need to get used to his melee proficiency and perhaps go with a set up squad against him, which would with force the orks to invest further in stormboys or deal with being controlled constantly.