Eldritch meh

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Broodwich
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Broodwich » Fri 10 Nov, 2017 11:38 pm


so against a giant nid blob, he comboed with a hero ability and the dcannon ability that actually threw it into the nuke... and then got a lucky hit on the blob with a bolt that popped synapse and added to the damage...

Def 100% eldrich
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Nurland
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Re: RE: Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Nurland » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 6:49 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:All you people talking about the Eldritch storm and nobody complaining about the Rocket Run that can also wipe entire armies 8-) Oh no, Rocks also levels the battlefield pretty much. Ork Nuke setups are also very easy. No complaints. :P
Roks and RR both have been nerfed from their retail state where as eldritch has only been buffed until now. Correct me if I am wrong but elite reduced the casting time of storm?

Anyhow eldritch has been the best nuke in game for the longest time, no contest. It is
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Adila
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Adila » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 7:22 am

Those were the changes in Elite
-Eldritch Storm delay decreased by 1 second
-Eldritch Storm vehicle stun increased from 10 to 14 seconds
-Eldritch Storm bolt damage & knockback radius increased from 5 to 6

why not just revert this and make dmg nerf not so significant ?
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Shroom
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Shroom » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 12:26 pm

Adila wrote:make dmg nerf not so significant ?

maybe because eldritch wiping armies when they retreat into base isnt a good thing
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Adila » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 12:30 pm

All nukes can do that if you time it correctly, even Tyrano formation or OB can wipe allot in retreat when your timing is on point.
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Torpid
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Torpid » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 2:27 pm

Adila wrote:Those were the changes in Elite
-Eldritch Storm delay decreased by 1 second
-Eldritch Storm vehicle stun increased from 10 to 14 seconds
-Eldritch Storm bolt damage & knockback radius increased from 5 to 6

why not just revert this and make dmg nerf not so significant ?


I honestly wasn't even aware that this had happened since retail. None of that makes any fucking sense to me to be honest. What was the reasoning?????

But yes, reverting those changes and changing the damage decrease from 200 -> 100, to maybe something like 150? That might work. What do you think Adila?
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Deflaktor » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 2:48 pm

the delay change did make sense. I remember it was hard to hit anything with eldritch unless your opponent was looking elsewhere. Even with the current delay you can still dodge -> https://youtu.be/AaQf6e26aZs?t=17m54s

Also, it is very hard to kill land raiders with eldritch now. I had a game where I set up a Doom + Eldritch + Guided Wraithguards + Banshees and was barely able to kill it. I would honestly up the damage to 150 back. Maybe also revert that other stuff, but not the delay.
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Adila » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 3:06 pm

Torpid wrote:
Adila wrote:Those were the changes in Elite
-Eldritch Storm delay decreased by 1 second
-Eldritch Storm vehicle stun increased from 10 to 14 seconds
-Eldritch Storm bolt damage & knockback radius increased from 5 to 6

why not just revert this and make dmg nerf not so significant ?


I honestly wasn't even aware that this had happened since retail. None of that makes any fucking sense to me to be honest. What was the reasoning?????

But yes, reverting those changes and changing the damage decrease from 200 -> 100, to maybe something like 150? That might work. What do you think Adila?


I would go 160-180, since the rest is getting reverted.
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Torpid
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Torpid » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 3:34 pm

Deflaktor wrote:the delay change did make sense. I remember it was hard to hit anything with eldritch unless your opponent was looking elsewhere. Even with the current delay you can still dodge -> https://youtu.be/AaQf6e26aZs?t=17m54s

Also, it is very hard to kill land raiders with eldritch now. I had a game where I set up a Doom + Eldritch + Guided Wraithguards + Banshees and was barely able to kill it. I would honestly up the damage to 150 back. Maybe also revert that other stuff, but not the delay.


Yes... Being able to dodge it is bloody intentional. Seriously? If you couldn't dodge it that would be broken beyond belief.

Orbital when placed well will hit 70% of the time and is therefore mostly undodgable. Eldritch/roks/abyss/tyranno will all miss if they are not combined with stuns/knockback/suppression/used on retreat.

Rocket run is amazing since it cannot be dodged and retreating doesn't do anything to save you. But to compensate for that it is notoriously bad vs vehicles.

And how do you think other races feel about killing land raiders? Orks and nids in particular. Their nukes don't do much at all to it. Nor does chaos but that's part of the reason why they get LRPs.
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Deflaktor » Sat 11 Nov, 2017 4:08 pm

Torpid wrote:Yes... Being able to dodge it is bloody intentional. Seriously? If you couldn't dodge it that would be broken beyond belief.


So? That is common sense. I dont see what you are trying to say. You asked why the changes were made and I answered you that Eldritch was hard to hit and even with these changes it is still possible to dodge. So the change was good.

Torpid wrote:And how do you think other races feel about killing land raiders? Orks and nids in particular. Their nukes don't do much at all to it. Nor does chaos but that's part of the reason why they get LRPs.


Every nuke always had its thematic flavor. Nids is supportive nuke, Orks was always a hit or miss but huge damage when hit (I actually think that orks nuke was overnerfed, too), Chaos nuke is ultimate retreat gibber, IG amazing vs infantry, SM orbital very reliable and Eldritch amazing against vehicles.

So the other nukes have their own qualities. I do not complain when I retreat my army and the retreat path goes through an abyss. That is then my fault.

But if set up a combo of having several key units at the right location at the right time and get a perfect hit with a nuke that is intended against vehicles in combination with key abilities, then I expect to be rewarded for it.
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Atlas » Sun 12 Nov, 2017 3:10 am

Adila wrote:
Torpid wrote:
Adila wrote:Those were the changes in Elite
-Eldritch Storm delay decreased by 1 second
-Eldritch Storm vehicle stun increased from 10 to 14 seconds
-Eldritch Storm bolt damage & knockback radius increased from 5 to 6

why not just revert this and make dmg nerf not so significant ?


I honestly wasn't even aware that this had happened since retail. None of that makes any fucking sense to me to be honest. What was the reasoning?????

But yes, reverting those changes and changing the damage decrease from 200 -> 100, to maybe something like 150? That might work. What do you think Adila?


I would go 160-180, since the rest is getting reverted.

Some Edjuhmuhkation time here.
Image
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/eldritch

Description
"After a 4 second delay, unleashes a terrifying psychic storm that strikes 27 times, each bolt doing 200 explosive damage and ability knockback in radius 6. Vehicles within radius 3 of a bolt are unable to move or attack for 14 seconds, and have their rotation rate reduced by 80%. Starting from the eye of the storm, 9 points are struck with 3 bolts each, with a 0.5 second delay between points, aside from the first, and a 0.3 second delay between bolts. There is a 1 second delay between the first strike and the second. Cooldown 120 seconds."

2.7.1
"Eldritch Storm damage of first 12 bolts of eldritch storm reduced from 200 explosive to 100 explosive."

What if I told you the "undodgeable" Rocket Run has a 3.8 second delay and Storm has a 4 second delay on its first set of bolts right now?

The set of quoted changes makes the nuke a lot more reliable in general, and the radius knockback increase in particular looks to help push non-vehicle units into the other bolts that haven't fired yet, whereas vehicles that can't be pushed deal with a longer stun instead of more damage.

I would be completely against undoing the previous Storm buffs for the sake of damage. I couldn't think of a better way to completely suck the flavor and reliability out of a nuke unless you just removed the vehicle snare entirely, and this is coming from a pretty infamous Eldar hater on the dev team.
If anything, the kind of nerf we did sounds like it was a LONGGG time coming and just finishes up what was started before.

Torp and Adila, go home you are literally drunk. Don't nonchalantly suggest massive reverts to solve problems that, going from the vibes in this thread, are hardly even confirmed to be problems in the first place. Play with bolt delays and such if you want, but otherwise just no on completely changing the nuke's behavior.
Atlas: Minister of Common Sense, Reasoning and Similar Sh*t

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