Eldritch meh

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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TheGoldenChicken
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Eldritch meh

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 9:44 am

After the update, I feel like the eldar nuke has gotten too nuked, between its horrendously long marker time, the rediculously long time where the storm is forming, and the lackluster damage once it finally decides to strike, it really is almost useless against anything but gaunt swarms. I mean you'd be lucky to kill a goddamn guardsman with it these days.

Perhaps the 50% damage nerf was a bit too much? What do you think?
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Rostam
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Rostam » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 10:47 am

It seems ok for a nuke
Compared to tyrana formation and orbital it is way better.
Plus it stuns vehichles.
If before it 1 shotted a redeemer occasionally now it two shots it (still with stun)
The nerf on eldritch is good and proper
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Torpid
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Torpid » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 2:04 pm

Maybe. Since I don't play teams it is hard for me to see it in action a lot.

Could I get some clips or replays?
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Oddnerd
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 2:22 pm

It's a better solution than having it delete T3 super-vehicles.
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Torpid
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Torpid » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 2:29 pm

We could see if we changing the damage type to make it do specifically less vs vehicles could be an option and perhaps combine that with a smaller nerf. Perhaps 150 damage, not 100?

But again, I'd like to see lots of replay footage. Youtube clips being ideal =P
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Rostam
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Rostam » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 9:32 pm

Torpid wrote:WBut again, I'd like to see lots of replay footage. Youtube clips being ideal =P


This might be a good example,eldrich seemed to do fine
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qSJIkbFi2-Q
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Torpid
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Torpid » Mon 06 Nov, 2017 12:25 am



Nice. 26m50s for anyone else wanted to see. Yeah, seemed to do fine to me.
Last edited by Torpid on Mon 06 Nov, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Licking Boogyman
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Mon 06 Nov, 2017 8:24 am

It's still can wipe squads with midbolts, so i dont c any problems.
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Mon 06 Nov, 2017 4:51 pm

The again, that eldritch couldn't have been more perfect. It right dead center on two havocs and a CSM, on a player who was completely unaware prior, and yet it only wiped one havoc. That seems kinda unimpressive, especially considering its almost exclusive use against unaware players
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Psycho
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Psycho » Mon 06 Nov, 2017 5:13 pm

TheGoldenChicken wrote:The again, that eldritch couldn't have been more perfect. It right dead center on two havocs and a CSM, on a player who was completely unaware prior, and yet it only wiped one havoc. That seems kinda unimpressive, especially considering its almost exclusive use against unaware players

If you want it to hurt unaware players more, you could increase its damage to around 150 or so like Torpid suggested or even back to 200 but reduce the damage it does to retreating units a bit. Obviously with a damage type that does less damage to vehicles since they can't retreat, and instead straight up disables them.
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Broodwich
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Broodwich » Wed 08 Nov, 2017 4:14 am

eldritch only deleted supers if you combo it with a bunch of other stuff. The stun effect is pretty potent, and eldar can dish out punishment like no other, especially FS

i'd support a move back to 150 or 200, with maybe a reduction on the stun/slow
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lomors
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby lomors » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 4:52 am

I still think that whole nerf thing was caused by clips when the nuke itself bugged out on landraiders. I don't know the specifics but it seemed to do more damage then intented on landraiders or battlewagons when you had units inside it. Because of this came the nerf but bug still exists I believe. Even then 50% seems a biiit too much. It's really easy to dodge first bolts. If player is aware of it he can just walk out of it. It's still not as "meh" as SM nuke to me though so maybe I shouldn't complain.. But at least buffing the damage of later bolts would be good.
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Rostam
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Rostam » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 5:06 am

It is still one of the best nukes in the game
Eldrich nerf is one of the best changes I have ever seen, it has a good balance atm and it is still very powerful
If eldritch is suppose to get buffed again u might as well open up the idea of buffing orbital&tyrana as well which is redundant

I think the big problem for eldar is not eldrich, it is the squishy infantry and tanks in T3 compared to a race like IG,SM or Orks
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 8:13 am

The problem I'm addressing, is not so much that the eldritch sucks exclusively by how much damage that it does, but how little damage it does compared to hard it is to hit. You basically need to hit a completely snared enemy, or shoot for someone who is completely unaware. So I propose, that we either make it easier to hit, by decreasing the time it takes for the first bolts to hit, or increase the damage, to actually allow the eldar to punish unaware players accordingly
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The Licking Boogyman
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 12:39 pm

Though its a nuke that can be comboed in more ways then any other race. Be it through warp throw, time field, phaseshift, gravity nade, singularity and etc + well placed retreat nuke. I dont see the nuke being any how weak in damage. If u wanna place it like a normal nuke like forcing the enemy into it, its still doable. It might be not ez to nuke ur opponent with some combos, if he always retreats before u can pull it off, but if it works u can work more damage then most comboes. I dont see how this patch nuke is underwheelming.
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Schepp himself
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Schepp himself » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 2:21 pm

What the purpose of nukes in the game? I'm fairly new to DOW2 - Elite and have only experience with multiplayer meta in company of heroes in which there are no nukes.

Is it to counter blobbing?
Is it to counter immobility?
Is it a last chance button to press to get into the game again?

A clarification would be nice and could maybe help this discussion.

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Torpid
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Torpid » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 2:24 pm

lomors wrote:I still think that whole nerf thing was caused by clips when the nuke itself bugged out on landraiders. I don't know the specifics but it seemed to do more damage then intented on landraiders or battlewagons when you had units inside it. Because of this came the nerf but bug still exists I believe. Even then 50% seems a biiit too much. It's really easy to dodge first bolts. If player is aware of it he can just walk out of it. It's still not as "meh" as SM nuke to me though so maybe I shouldn't complain.. But at least buffing the damage of later bolts would be good.


The nerf was caused more by clips like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woZQCfw ... e=youtu.be

It is quite easy to hit eldritch on retreat and before the wipe potential was unprecendented. As good on retreat as an abyss. Way better out of retreat than one. Better than roks vs infantry whilst also being by far the best nuke vs vehicles. It just seemed unnecessarily overpowered. Eldar should be about precision shots not throing that crazy nuke in the middle of an army like a roks and getting lots of wipes. Which is why I like how it works now. Still has sniping potential vs vehicles due to the stun but less likely to kill them outright. And its ability to just annihilate armies is much lesser.
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Schepp himself
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Schepp himself » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 3:41 pm

Torpid wrote:The nerf was caused more by clips like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woZQCfw ... e=youtu.be


Haha!
This clip is hilarious! In no serious game should there be a two click army death option.

(But it discourages blobbing to some degree...)

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Atlas
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Atlas » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 5:10 pm

Schepp himself wrote:What the purpose of nukes in the game? I'm fairly new to DOW2 - Elite and have only experience with multiplayer meta in company of heroes in which there are no nukes.

Is it to counter blobbing?
Is it to counter immobility?
Is it a last chance button to press to get into the game again?

A clarification would be nice and could maybe help this discussion.

Greets
Schepp himself


First off, hey o/ welcome to DoW2 Elite!

And second, yes, nukes are more for crushing into a position. It's damage and radius should force things to move out of that zone. Ofc it CAN kill shit, but nukes wiping squads wholesale is usually more than point and click. Distractions or setups should allow that.
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lomors
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby lomors » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 5:26 pm

Torpid, in the case of that very video I think eldritch itself didn't do the main bulk of the damage. It just managed to finish the job and by late bolts anyways. If the nids just retreated from it they'd be super healthy for another fight. As you could saw they completly walked out the area where first bolts hit. And that's the problem I find with this nuke.. You seem to just be able to walk out of it.

I think the later bolts should be buffed a bit at least. That wouldn't increase wiping potential that much but it would make a bit harder to dodge. Like seriously, I've seen tanks that had had it put beneath them and they just casually rode out of it. xd Like it was just a rain.
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Shroom » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 5:36 pm

lomors wrote:Like seriously, I've seen tanks that had had it put beneath them and they just casually rode out of it. xd Like it was just a rain.

why should eldritch be able to rek a speed 7 vehicle that hasn't previously been snared by something, what other nuke does that?


maybe now eldritch wont wipe armies retreating into base anymore, surely thats a good thing.
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lomors
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby lomors » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 5:52 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQf6e26aZs - just as we needed examples. 17:58. You just walk out of this. And they were really blobed.

And I approve of the nerf as it is still impossible to wipe something out with orbital and it seemed really unfair. But just make at least those later bolts achieve something. ;<
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Psycho
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Psycho » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 6:06 pm

A nuke with no earlier setup nor followup, and you want it to wreck an entire army when no other nuke does that in a similar context? What do you think will happen if it has a setup or followup? Or both?
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lomors
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby lomors » Thu 09 Nov, 2017 6:27 pm

Noo. Just catch something as it gets out of it with late bolts. It was actually the issue before and it made eldar nuke good only with combo or on big units.
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Fri 10 Nov, 2017 11:11 am

Then call me a noob or a bad player, but I think an eldritch is incredibly hard to time correctly, simply because it has such a long conjuring time, even after the marker has diappeared and the first bolts are hitting. And now, with the nerf to damage, most SM or CSM units, are just tossed outside the radius without getting killed.

I think it should be buffed to 150 damage, but with a 0.75 damage modifier vs vehicles, to prevent super-unit deletion
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 10 Nov, 2017 4:33 pm

Eldritch has been OP since forever. Finally a good change. Let's not fuck it up.
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby PianoMan » Fri 10 Nov, 2017 4:51 pm

still is the best nuke on the best race
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 10 Nov, 2017 6:23 pm

All you people talking about the Eldritch storm and nobody complaining about the Rocket Run that can also wipe entire armies 8-) Oh no, Rocks also levels the battlefield pretty much. Ork Nuke setups are also very easy. No complaints. :P
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Kvn » Fri 10 Nov, 2017 6:30 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:All you people talking about the Eldritch storm and nobody complaining about the Rocket Run that can also wipe entire armies 8-) Oh no, Rocks also levels the battlefield pretty much. Ork Nuke setups are also very easy. No complaints. :P


But Eldar don't have those things, and everybody knows it's only OP if Eldar do it. :D

In all seriousness though, I think cutting the damage in half was a bit much. I can see the reasoning behind it, but a nerf that huge seems a little heavy.
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Psycho
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Re: Eldritch meh

Postby Psycho » Fri 10 Nov, 2017 8:23 pm

It's almost as if the rocket run and roks are different to the eldritch

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