The automatic thunder commander

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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TheGoldenChicken
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The automatic thunder commander

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 4:57 pm

Based on the trends in people's and my own style of FC play, I recommend we make it, so that whenever a space marine player with a force commander goes T2, he gets an automatic thunder hammer with the purchase.

Ok jokes aside, I think the force commander's weapon options needs to be looked at, because right now, there is almost no reason to NOT get the thunder hammer in T2. As a space marine FC main, my rationale behind getting a T2 weapon, is usually as follows:

Does the enemy have vehicle(s)?
Yes -> Power fist until dead, then thunder hammer
No -> Thunder hammer

And I think this is wrong, because many other commanders don't have this completely polarized decision when it comes to wargear. With commanders such as the techmarine (whom I think is one of the best examples of commanders), you have the choice between a power axe as a meele option, or a plasma gun as a ranged option, both being completely viable if facing HI, even staying in the TM's default state might work. The FC, however, only has one viable option for everything without vehicle armor.

The reason for this, is that I don't think the thunder hammer follows the guidelines of good wargear. Good wargear fulfills a certain role well, although not as well as a specialized squad would, as a tradeoff, it doesn't increase population or upkeep, costs less, and keeps your army flexible by allowing future change in wargear. There's often a tradeoff as well: choosing one piece of wargear, will disallow you from using another at the same time, which might leave you open to another response from your opponent. For example, choosing improved targeters for the WSE might make you better at peeling off models, but you will not be able to throw a shimmer orb when you really need it. The only thing you'll be missing with the FC, is anti-vehicle capability, which can quickly be remedied by tacs, devs or ASM, 5% extra damage buff on battlecry, and suppression immunity aura, which becomes redundant if the FC also gets teleporter (which he often does).

So my suggestion for the thunder hammer, is to make it more as advertised - a melee counter, and less as an automatic purchase vs infantry. A possibility for this, would be to decrease it damage by about 40%, but make it ignore melee resistance aura, kinda like the PC plague sword. Another idea is to increase the effectiveness of the chainsword and storm shield, perhaps making it scale with the FC's level. Space marine players I think, need to be punished for automatically choosing a piece of wargear, without really thinking or scouting what the enemy's composition in T2 looks like...

...despite how cool it looks when an FC is in the middle of an orbital bombardment, and still smacking heretics.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Zeno » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 5:51 pm

IMO there is nothing wrong with the TH as a melee counter alone. It hurts blobs, but he can be suppressed, knocked back and isn't the most tanky of commanders. So whilst it is good counter initiation, it can be dealt with providing enough firepower is focused on him, especially if the FC is used to charge at the enemy line rather than for counter initiation. The problem comes when he is equipped with the teleporter, at which point he is a blob wrecking machine who is much more difficult to counter. So if the TH is OP (I don't really know, it been this way for ages), then I think it would be better to look at its synergy with the teleporter. Maybe move the teleporter to T3, or increase its energy cost so he cant instantly jump in a blob, pop Battle Cry and then start dishing out 360 special attacks.
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Ace of Swords
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 5:52 pm

And I think this is wrong, because many other commanders don't have this completely polarized decision when it comes to wargear.


List of mandatory wargears:

Bang bang hammer
Spiky armor
Angry bitz
Knob shotgun
Knob kaboom
Mek dakka dakka dakka
Mek Battery pack
LG sniper rifle
LG Sergeant
Holy pyre
Excruciators
LC power sword
Carapace armor
Stubbornness
Immolator autobuy vs everyone but power armor
merciless witchblade autobuy vs power armor
champion's robe
Doombringers
Armor of fortune
runes of reaping
Improved targers
Heavy gauge deathspinners
Rending talons
Extended carapace
Corrosive claws
Deadly jump
Pheromone
Corrosive devourer
Synapse aura (damage)
Reinforced chitin
Combi flamer
Armor of inferno
Daemonic visage
Sword of flame
Vestments of the warp
Armor of pestilence
Mucus discharge
Customized storm bolter
Improved medical equipment
TM plasma gun
TM artificer armor
Orbs of the omnissiah



There's a a lot of braindead wargear that it's an auto purchase 100% of the time, FC power sword and PF are both equally good but not great in a meta where everyone and their mothers spams infantry and especially melee units vs SM and it just happens that the thunderhammer is the best tool in the whole sm arsenal to deal with that.
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Torpid
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Torpid » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 6:36 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
And I think this is wrong, because many other commanders don't have this completely polarized decision when it comes to wargear.


List of mandatory wargears:

Bang bang hammer
Spiky armor
Angry bitz
Knob shotgun
Knob kaboom
Mek dakka dakka dakka
Mek Battery pack
LG sniper rifle
LG Sergeant
Holy pyre
Excruciators
LC power sword
Carapace armor
Stubbornness
Immolator autobuy vs everyone but power armor
merciless witchblade autobuy vs power armor
champion's robe
Doombringers
Armor of fortune
runes of reaping
Improved targers
Heavy gauge deathspinners
Rending talons
Extended carapace
Corrosive claws
Deadly jump
Pheromone
Corrosive devourer
Synapse aura (damage)
Reinforced chitin
Combi flamer
Armor of inferno
Daemonic visage
Sword of flame
Vestments of the warp
Armor of pestilence
Mucus discharge
Customized storm bolter
Improved medical equipment
TM plasma gun
TM artificer armor
Orbs of the omnissiah



There's a a lot of braindead wargear that it's an auto purchase 100% of the time, FC power sword and PF are both equally good but not great in a meta where everyone and their mothers spams infantry and especially melee units vs SM and it just happens that the thunderhammer is the best tool in the whole sm arsenal to deal with that.


Please stop trolling Ace.

I am not going to waste my time going through that ridiculous list but literally 80-90% of them are just false, not outright instant buys even when you qualify them to different situations (like the t1 WL wargears).
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Ace of Swords
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 6:41 pm

Torpid wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:
And I think this is wrong, because many other commanders don't have this completely polarized decision when it comes to wargear.


List of mandatory wargears:

Bang bang hammer
Spiky armor
Angry bitz
Knob shotgun
Knob kaboom
Mek dakka dakka dakka
Mek Battery pack
LG sniper rifle
LG Sergeant
Holy pyre
Excruciators
LC power sword
Carapace armor
Stubbornness
Immolator autobuy vs everyone but power armor
merciless witchblade autobuy vs power armor
champion's robe
Doombringers
Armor of fortune
runes of reaping
Improved targers
Heavy gauge deathspinners
Rending talons
Extended carapace
Corrosive claws
Deadly jump
Pheromone
Corrosive devourer
Synapse aura (damage)
Reinforced chitin
Combi flamer
Armor of inferno
Daemonic visage
Sword of flame
Vestments of the warp
Armor of pestilence
Mucus discharge
Customized storm bolter
Improved medical equipment
TM plasma gun
TM artificer armor
Orbs of the omnissiah



There's a a lot of braindead wargear that it's an auto purchase 100% of the time, FC power sword and PF are both equally good but not great in a meta where everyone and their mothers spams infantry and especially melee units vs SM and it just happens that the thunderhammer is the best tool in the whole sm arsenal to deal with that.


Please stop trolling Ace.

I am not going to waste my time going through that ridiculous list but literally 80-90% of them are just false, not outright instant buys even when you qualify them to different situations (like the t1 WL wargears).


Says the one who said he spends 100 power in t1 on nid heroes lol.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby boss » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 7:32 pm

Hammer is fine it counter melee that's its job what breaks this is the teleport I said this for a long time no melee hero need a teleport in t2.
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
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Torpid
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Torpid » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 7:51 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Says the one who said he spends 100 power in t1 on nid heroes lol.


RA crippling talon + toxic miasma + hardened carapace = 20+25+25 = 70

LA fendrils + AG + pheromones = 25+35+20 = 80

Carapace + talons + scream = 20+25+20 = 65

This is compared to TH and teleport which is 35+40 = 75, 25 more with artificer, hence the 100.

For 75 power with the TH and teleporter the FC does A LOT. The artificer on him is clearly more of a luxury than say spiky armour is on the warboss.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Forestradio » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 7:52 pm

TheGoldenChicken wrote:With commanders such as the techmarine (whom I think is one of the best examples of commanders), you have the choice between a power axe as a meele option, or a plasma gun as a ranged option, both being completely viable if facing HI
i laughed

just appease the whiners by taking 5 damage off the special, but this combination is fine really

power sword and fist are both perfectly viable weapons
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Oddnerd
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 8:09 pm

As much as I bitch about the TH, I agree with Boss that it only becomes a problem when the FC can teleport. He ends up working like a suped-up jump troop, when in principle the hammer is supposed to make him an ultimate melee counter.

Also sword and fist are great items, people just aren't creative.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 12:22 am

Torpid wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:Says the one who said he spends 100 power in t1 on nid heroes lol.


RA crippling talon + toxic miasma + hardened carapace = 20+25+25 = 70

LA fendrils + AG + pheromones = 25+35+20 = 80

Carapace + talons + scream = 20+25+20 = 65

This is compared to TH and teleport which is 35+40 = 75, 25 more with artificer, hence the 100.

For 75 power with the TH and teleporter the FC does A LOT. The artificer on him is clearly more of a luxury than say spiky armour is on the warboss.


Yeah because AG,scream and miasma aren't luxury upgrades right? I'm glad at least you are being retarded on purpose.

And since math still isn't an opinion 80 is still very far from 100, especially from someone that says a 5 power difference makes him go from purchasing a wargear always to never buy it anymore.

Oh and btw, pheromones alone offers way more than the FC with TH and teleporter could ever do, a mobile reinforce point, in t1, with low CD and an AoE damage reduction exclusive for the enemies.

g fucking g.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Atlas » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 2:32 am

I'm pretty sure LA AG is 25 power, not 35 power anyway.

But seriously, you're both being pedantic.
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Dark Riku
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 3:39 pm

Hammer fc is fine.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Nurland » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 6:46 pm

I don't really see much of an issue with hammer FC even with teleport
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 6:42 am

Stormshield - In team games when against ranged only opponents
Power Sword - Against heavy armour races that aren't blobby
Thunder Hammer - Against blobby melee units or blobby ranged units with Teleporter
Power Fist - Against vehicles. Highest dps and burst as well, which makes it better for killing on retreat

No, do not only ever get the Thunder Hammer.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 10:07 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Stormshield - In team games when against ranged only opponents
Power Sword - Against heavy armour races that aren't blobby
Thunder Hammer - Against blobby melee units or blobby ranged units with Teleporter
Power Fist - Against vehicles. Highest dps and burst as well, which makes it better for killing on retreat

No, do not only ever get the Thunder Hammer.


The thunder hammer deals power melee damage, and more of it than the power sword, this coupled with a higher burst damage than the sword, makes it better in T2 than the sword.
Ranged only opponents, also tend to be blobby, a teleporting thunder commander, can make short work of such blobs, which makes the shield kinda redundant
As I said with the sword, as the highest DPS weapon vs HI, there is little to no reason to get the fist against anything but infantry armor - which is also dumb.

Extra +: It has splash
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 10:11 am

Although, I see the points made about the thunder hammer not being OP without the teleporter, and I think that's a fair verdict
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Zeno » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 11:19 am

Well the Power Sword is T1 and much cheaper than the Thunder Hammer TBF, it keeps the decent bolt pistol and it gives a nice inspiration buff to Battle Cry. I like it for dealing with Raptors and ASM in T1.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby crog » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 3:43 pm

I think the sword needs a litte buff maybe to scale with lvl 20% instead of 15% buff for instance.
Otherwise as a sm player u wait almost ever to choose between fist and hammer for t2. Fist is also very expensive.

The teleporting thunder is hard to deal and easy to use.
I think the teleporter should move to t3.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Torpid » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 4:24 pm

crog wrote:I think the sword needs a litte buff maybe to scale with lvl 20% instead of 15% buff for instance.
Otherwise as a sm player u wait almost ever to choose between fist and hammer for t2. Fist is also very expensive.

The teleporting thunder is hard to deal and easy to use.
I think the teleporter should move to t3.


In 3v3 this is fair, but not in 1v1... Power sword does a lot there, especially now you don't lose the awesome bolt pistol.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby crog » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 4:37 pm

Torpid wrote:
crog wrote:I think the sword needs a litte buff maybe to scale with lvl 20% instead of 15% buff for instance.
Otherwise as a sm player u wait almost ever to choose between fist and hammer for t2. Fist is also very expensive.

The teleporting thunder is hard to deal and easy to use.
I think the teleporter should move to t3.


In 3v3 this is fair, but not in 1v1... Power sword does a lot there, especially now you don't lose the awesome bolt pistol.

I know but u will change this weapon as soon you reach t2.

That´s why i mean that it would be more useful in t2 or t3 if it buffs scales with the lvl of the hero like the heal of the apo.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Torpid » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 5:39 pm

crog wrote:
That´s why i mean that it would be more useful in t2 or t3 if it buffs scales with the lvl of the hero like the heal of the apo.


I mean I don't really see why it needs to scale past T1 in and of itself... That is why higher tier weapons cost more and that is why hero wargears you can switch out of.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 19 Jul, 2017 6:44 pm

TheGoldenChicken wrote:The thunder hammer deals power melee damage, and more of it than the power sword, this coupled with a higher burst damage than the sword, makes it better in T2 than the sword.
Ranged only opponents, also tend to be blobby, a teleporting thunder commander, can make short work of such blobs, which makes the shield kinda redundant
As I said with the sword, as the highest DPS weapon vs HI, there is little to no reason to get the fist against anything but infantry armor - which is also dumb.

Extra +: It has splash


You're completely ignoring cost and weapon availability. The Sword is cheaper than the Hammer and comes out faster. The benefits of the Hammer having marginally more dps doesn't mean you spend resources to rebuy a weapon for that small incremental gain. In 1v1 SM mirrors, the Sword is actually a better purchase than the Hammer and against Chaos you're better off with the Hammer due to Heretics being a high model squad. Are you only talking about team games where you can afford to just buy everything so these things don't matter? Have you played 1v1 against a good opponent where you can't get away with stuff like that?

The Shield is better in team games against ranged spam as you sit back protecting your allies and buffing them with Banner. Hammer can't make a big enough of a difference to beat that in that situation.

The Teleporter costs 40 power, which is why it's not bought very often. You're also giving up the protection of the Shield and buffing capabilities of the Banner, both of which are also cheaper.

Have you looked at the stats on the Codex? The Fist has more damage against everything compared to the Hammer. Using Alacrity and Viel of Time on the FC and he takes down retreating units easily as well.
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Re: The automatic thunder commander

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Thu 20 Jul, 2017 9:50 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
TheGoldenChicken wrote:The thunder hammer deals power melee damage, and more of it than the power sword, this coupled with a higher burst damage than the sword, makes it better in T2 than the sword.
Ranged only opponents, also tend to be blobby, a teleporting thunder commander, can make short work of such blobs, which makes the shield kinda redundant
As I said with the sword, as the highest DPS weapon vs HI, there is little to no reason to get the fist against anything but infantry armor - which is also dumb.

Extra +: It has splash


You're completely ignoring cost and weapon availability. The Sword is cheaper than the Hammer and comes out faster. The benefits of the Hammer having marginally more dps doesn't mean you spend resources to rebuy a weapon for that small incremental gain. In 1v1 SM mirrors, the Sword is actually a better purchase than the Hammer and against Chaos you're better off with the Hammer due to Heretics being a high model squad. Are you only talking about team games where you can afford to just buy everything so these things don't matter? Have you played 1v1 against a good opponent where you can't get away with stuff like that?

The Shield is better in team games against ranged spam as you sit back protecting your allies and buffing them with Banner. Hammer can't make a big enough of a difference to beat that in that situation.

The Teleporter costs 40 power, which is why it's not bought very often. You're also giving up the protection of the Shield and buffing capabilities of the Banner, both of which are also cheaper.

Have you looked at the stats on the Codex? The Fist has more damage against everything compared to the Hammer. Using Alacrity and Viel of Time on the FC and he takes down retreating units easily as well.



Power fist = 85 heavy melee DPS, 170 per hit
Thunder hammer = 62.5 power melee DPS, 125 per hit.
62.5*1.3 = 81.25 (VS HI)
125*1.3 = 162.5 (Vs HI)
So the hammer has almost the same DPS against heavy infantry, for the purpose of picking off models on retreat, against infantry...no retreating infantry model survives with more than 125 HP anyway.

I agree that the sword is very often purchased in 1v1 SM mirrors, or against chaos, sometimes even against nids or eldar for the extra DPS, but I also see tons of SM players, give up the sword in T2 for the hammer, both for the extra damage, but also for the "In case of melee" possibility. The hammer is only 50 req and 15 power more than the sword - that isn't a huge amount.

And yes, the 40% damage reduction from the shield is awesome in team games.... until a nuke or manticore barrage, or anything in between comes up, and all your team's units are fu**ed because they can't run away fast enough, also it forces your FC to remain in the back.

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