Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Atlas

Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Atlas » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 6:49 am

So there's a proposal here that basically makes the loots stealth a separate upgrade. What do you guys say?


Lootas Hide da Gunz ability now requires the Hide da Gunz upgrade to use.
Hide da Guzn upgrade cost set to 50/10, unlocks at T1.
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Aguxyz
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Aguxyz » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 10:04 am

they're already fine, they need no change
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Deflaktor » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 11:29 am

sounds okay I guess? What is the rationale behind this? Change for the sake of change?
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Crewfinity
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 2:21 pm

booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Ace of Swords » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 2:35 pm

They are fine as they are.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 3:19 pm

They are already the worst setup team in terms of suppression speed and damage at long range, why do they need to pay for the one thing that makes them really unique?

Are they over-performing in 1v1?
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boss
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby boss » Fri 14 Jul, 2017 3:53 pm

I forgot to say this in the change log but maybe just let the infiltrate unlock when you hit t2 as a passive so it lock in t1 but unlock when you hit t2?
The reason why it getting look at cos it very strong having a setup team with infiltrate, which then you not only need a counter but detect to combined this with the high damage at close range and on a race like orks it just silly.
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Atlas

Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Atlas » Sat 15 Jul, 2017 12:27 am

Ah, I should have included that ty.

The reason behind this change has to do with the synergy between the stealth and the tremendous damage that they do at close range compared to other setups. We addressed this issue with the Beemy Deffgun by changing its firing pattern, but didn't touch the Deffgun.

Some other ideas were to make the infiltrate cost red (8 ish) to activate and to just unlock it at T2.
Atlas

Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Atlas » Thu 20 Jul, 2017 4:49 am

Speak now or forever hold your peace!
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Flash
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Flash » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 5:40 pm

This is a few days late, but the stealth is just about the only thing lootas have going for them. 3v3 perspective here. Ya they deal a lot of damage at short range, but you need the stealth in order to pull that off. I find this combination of traits important when playing against the chaos lord and bro captain or other tanky entities. I cannot put out enough damage early on to deal with them without using a lootah. If you remove stealth, then they are never going to get close enough for me to force them off the field. After the first time seeing a lootah, you should be investing into a detector, and playing a bit more cautiously. Orks struggle to hold ground as it is, and the lootah stealth is what punishes over aggressive pushes. If you decide to change the stealth mechanic, consider in your calculations how that affects map control for orks.

In regards to the beamy, while the damage is high, keep in mind that it does not snare. With the vehicle speed increases in elite, finishing off a tank is no longer an easy feat. Stealth is what allows it to happen. yes you can combo with stun nades from stikk bombaz but that's adding another unit entirely.
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby TheCriticalSlayer » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 6:28 pm

I say just make them use red to use their stealth so it's a much more considerable tactical decision, however, only cost red to *activate.* It keeps their ability that makes them incredibly useful, especially when facing tanky commanders and also still making people considering using it a lot less. Perhaps like 10 or 15 red, something small and minimal but still enough to consider it.
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Tex » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 9:31 pm

As much as I don't want you guys messing with the lootas or orks in general, I agree that the infiltration is quite strong in T1. I think we should make it cost 25 red in T1 and then let it be free in T2 and beyond as a compromise. 25 red means you would definitely need to be thoughtful about using the infiltration, but it would still be available for 1 or 2 uses in that time period.
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby egewithin » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 10:40 pm

Can we please discuss why Lootaz have infiltration ability in the first place?
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boss
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby boss » Tue 06 Feb, 2018 12:24 am

COS ORKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 06 Feb, 2018 2:17 am

They used to be complete trash in every other respect when compared to other setups, so the infiltrate gave them something to make them unique/not garbage.

Now that they have changed lootas to have better damage falloff and suppression it may be too strong.
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Tex » Tue 06 Feb, 2018 5:39 pm

Question:
Why do Lootas have infiltration?

Answer including context:
Lootas have the ability to hide once setup to give them a unique feel and a tactical advantage in specific situations. It gives them a different niche than other setup teams, and their damage output really reflects that whereby they do large damage up close, and lower damage and suppression from further away.
Other setup teams have other attributes that differentiate them. Both the beamy loota and bright lance do not snare, thus, they both have abilities and compensation for their inferior AV utility (the brightlance having scorch beam which makes it an excellent force multliplier against infantry targets). The devastator can get anti-all vengence rounds which do massive damage at close range. These are the single most effective T1 counter to "unshakeable" heros and sentinels alike. Havocs have an incredible snare laser that shoots instantly upon setup, and have access to the wonderful anti-all auto cannon if you don't decide to go full AV. IG HWT is similar to the havoc, except that this squad can reinforce very quickly AND can be upgraded to be knockback and ranged damage resistant. Venom broods don't really fit in this category as they are a kind of hybrid, but as such, they can fire on the move which gives them a different feel to the AV they provide. OM also have a sort of hybrid form of AV, and this gives them a unique feel whereby their AV units still do damage to infantry.

Summary:
Lootas have infiltration as a perk because it is the ability that guides their design and playstyle. Lootas are an ambush oriented setup team and the infiltration helps them accomplish this. The burst damage on lootas is highest of all setup teams for this very reason - that being - they would be ineffective at doing their job if they were unable to ambush or even potentially ambush their targets.
This perk is justified mostly in that all setup teams have a specific perk.
In the current iteration of lootas, there seems to be complaint of over-performance. As such, their damage fall off should be looked at, and the balance team will look at potentially making infiltration cost "X" amount of red.
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 06 Feb, 2018 8:11 pm

Word
darthmisery
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby darthmisery » Wed 07 Feb, 2018 4:12 am

I agree, just leave as is. I'm not even an ork player and I think it's fine. Give them something unique.
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lomors
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Re: Loota Infiltrate Proposal

Postby lomors » Wed 07 Feb, 2018 4:26 am

It can lead to death traps but that (at least for me) doesn't happen really often. Like really. Leave it be in t1.

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