Warlock Destructor

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
hiveminion
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Warlock Destructor

Postby hiveminion » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 8:23 am

I'm not an Eldar main so feel free to call me out on this one but what do people think of the Warlock and in particular Destructor. Against infantry squads it seems to do almost as much damage as a fully charged Doombolts, but unlike the Sorcerer the Warlock is also a potent melee threat out the gate due to his speed and special attack. Also, Destructor is a lot harder to dodge than Doombolts. You can also follow up or precede a Destructor instantly with an Immolate which frankly I find a bit much for a lvl 1 commander. Hive Tyrant needs to be lvl 2 for Seismic+Charge combo.

I would suggest to either lower the damage so that it is a decently spammable but low-threat ability, or increase the energy cost and make it a bit more dodgeable to make it a high-threat, not-too-spammable skillshot.
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boss
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby boss » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 10:31 am

Destructor is already getting look at it a dumb ability to say the least I don't no why it was change in elite so you can't doge it at all and ignores cover and break some it not even a skillshot no more you just point and well your unit down half heath on a race like eldar but I guess wl never really tuck any skill to play.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 12:33 pm

Out of all Eldar things. Destructor? Destructor is fine.

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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Impregnable » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 2:19 pm

Always wondered why it was changed to fire twice. Does anyone know what was the logic behind this change?
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Rostam » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 2:37 pm

yea destructor is too good atm needs nerf so it cant be fired instantly with less damage
speaking of eldar i think it is the rangers that need buff
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boss
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby boss » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 4:03 pm

Impregnable wrote:Always wondered why it was changed to fire twice. Does anyone know what was the logic behind this change?



Cos that wanted to make it more reliable to hit somehow even tho nothing was wrong with the one hit, was not just the 2 hit thing but has no wind time at all and the damage was change to psychic_pvp.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Deflaktor » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 4:40 pm

It was changed because it was a hit or miss ability and often missed for no reason at all. It is more predictable now to hit at least once and one can better depend on it to properly work. Its damage has been halved though so it has not become stronger or anything like that.

Also: whaaat? why would the destructor be too good? I seriously see no point in changing it. The sorcerer can spam his doombolts over and over again thanks to consuming heretics, they do a lot more damage and are also pretty hard to dodge. Warlock does his destructor once and his damage is less than sorcerer. Fleet of Foot also costs energy so if you used fof recently then you cant do the destructor + immolate combo.

Also 2: Fire dragons have been nerfed to the ground. I havent made good use of em ever since the new patch hit and I haven seen them contribute anything to the battle in any replay. If anybody has a replay where they do anything except bleed, I would really want to see that.
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Psycho
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Psycho » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 4:48 pm

Only issue I have with the destructor is its synergy with immolator with how neither has a remarkable windup time and the former the same with windown, so you can chain them together with exceptional accuracy. I had the thought in my head of having the immolate ability replace the destructor instead, but that might be a little too much if the immolate is left as it is in such case.

Thing is, I can only think of it an issue vs high model squads since both abilities are AoE. As IG this is infuriating, but as SM most I have to worry about is losing a scout model or two when my scouts and the WL go for the same contested and he gets the jump on them.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby hiveminion » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 4:59 pm

Deflaktor wrote:Also: whaaat? why would the destructor be too good? I seriously see no point in changing it. The sorcerer can spam his doombolts over and over again thanks to consuming heretics, they do a lot more damage and are also pretty hard to dodge. Warlock does his destructor once and his damage is less than sorcerer. Fleet of Foot also costs energy so if you used fof recently then you cant do the destructor + immolate combo.


This is anecdotal of course but I noticed my Termagants lost 80% of their health from a Destructor hit. That's comparable to a fully charged Doombolts. And I don't think Doombolts are that hard to dodge when you clue in on the energy drop from the Sorcerer. You certainly have a chance to dodge, which you don't have with Destructor.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Adila » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 5:07 pm

The dmg type was changed to make the ability more viable in heavy armor mus, it helped slightly but I disagreed at the very start with the bolt firing twice. It took more skill to hit it back then and the chance to dodge it was also higher, if anything you can change that back. The cd on the sorc doombolts are no comparison to the cd of the destructor. With 2 perfect doombolt voleys at full energy you can easely take some models of tacs and csm too, you cant do that with the destructor its still very good vs high model count squads but thats for what the ability was designed for. For early pressure.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Deflaktor » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 6:33 pm

Adila wrote:[...] I disagreed at the very start with the bolt firing twice. It took more skill to hit it back then and the chance to dodge it was also higher, if anything you can change that back.


I agree, you had to be more perceptive and wait for the perfect moment to cast it. However it was still random. You could cast a destructor on a squad standing idle in an empty field with no cover in sight and it would sometimes just miss. If you want to bring back single hit, fine. But then please fix the erratic behavior of it.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Phoenix » Mon 10 Jul, 2017 6:40 pm

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Oddnerd
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 11 Jul, 2017 1:58 am

The only issue I have with destructor is that whether it hits you or not is completely up to RNGesus. It has basically no windup and no indicator so it is impossible to miss in theory, but it will sometimes flat out not damage a target even though the player aiming it was spot-on with his aim.

Instead of being an ability that is impossible to miss but which periodically bugs out, I would rather it be something like the sorcs doombolts where aiming it and dodging it both require attentiveness and micromanagement.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 11 Jul, 2017 2:00 am

Oddnerd wrote: It has basically no windup and no indicator so it is impossible to miss in theory, but it will sometimes flat out not damage a target even though the player aiming it was spot-on with his aim. .


You sure that's not because they used FoF and hit a unit in cover?
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 11 Jul, 2017 2:19 am

That is possible, I don't remember the exact circumstances of the few instances I've seen of it doing no damage.
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Cyris
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Cyris » Tue 11 Jul, 2017 2:22 am

With some more experience with and against this ability here is my opinion: A small damage decrease would be fine. Destructor is reliable but has clear counterlay. Either a bit less damage, or a slightly longer CD or energy cost would be fine. That's about it. And no changes would prolly be fine.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby PaperBaG » Tue 11 Jul, 2017 2:53 am

Dark Riku wrote:Out of all Eldar things. Destructor? Destructor is fine.

What has the world come to? I'm defending Eldar :)


This...seriously id do anything to use doombolts instead, can be deadly with immolate sure but that 40 energy is better used often to use FoF
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby hiveminion » Tue 11 Jul, 2017 8:03 am

Cyris wrote: Destructor is reliable but has clear counterlay.


Care to share, because I don't see how you can react fast enough to dodge it unless you're already moving.
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Broodwich
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Broodwich » Wed 12 Jul, 2017 3:57 am

it seems the main complaint of this thread is that if you use an ability very well it will have good effect on target
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Torpid » Wed 12 Jul, 2017 5:46 am

Broodwich wrote:it seems the main complaint of this thread is that if you use an ability very well it will have good effect on target


Let's not be ridiculous.

The main complaint is clearly that there is no counter-play, which there isn't.

You can cancel the destructor after you click to use it before it triggers if you wish, something you cannot do with doombolts or smite. And in addition to that it actually hits faster than doombolts or smite, meaning it is harder to miss with it. That seems an odd pairing indeed.

Naturally as a nid or an IG the spike damage can lead to squad wipes and in fact changes the entire game and MU. So I can see the frustration.

No counter-play, very easy to use and not particularly an issue if you fuck it up either... High reward 0 risk.
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Psycho
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Psycho » Wed 12 Jul, 2017 6:11 am

Torpid wrote:Naturally as a nid or an IG the spike damage can lead to squad wipes and in fact changes the entire game and MU. So I can see the frustration.

This. Doesn't help that it also has 50 range. It can immediately force a heretic retreat if placed well, too.
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby Deflaktor » Wed 12 Jul, 2017 9:56 am

Torpid wrote:
The main complaint is clearly that there is no counter-play, which there isn't.


Buy an aspiring champion for your tics, keep your hormogaunts/termagaunts in synapse range. Is that no counterplay? If you are up against a warlock you can anticipate the destructor and act accordingly. It only does high damage to your high model squads if they are bobbed up in one place for some reason. In their default squad formation it does not even do that much damage.

Destructor is only useful at t1, it rapidly losses effectiveness at later stages in the game. Nobody uses it in t2 anymore (exaggeration but you get my point).

Also a well placed doombolts can force a tac marine squad retreat.
Last edited by Deflaktor on Wed 12 Jul, 2017 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
hiveminion
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Re: Warlock Destructor

Postby hiveminion » Wed 12 Jul, 2017 12:08 pm

Deflaktor wrote:Buy an aspiring champion for your tics, keep your hormogaunts/termagaunts in synapse range. Is that no counterplay? If you are up against a warlock you can anticipate the destructor and act accordingly. It only does high damage to your high model squads if they are bobbed up in one place for some reason. In their default squad formation it does not even do that much damage.


It's not really counterplay, it's just mitigation. Example of counterplay would be if the casting time was just a little longer allowing you to select a unit and move it out of harm's way if you react the moment the Warlock's energy bar drops. Like with Doombolts.

Even if you dominate a Warlock's army in T1 as Nids, forcing off Shees and Shuri, there's just no way to prevent the Warlock from forcing off at least one squad with Destructor unless the Eldar player is incompetent at casting it. Since Guardians are one of the best starter units in the game right now, I don't see why the Warlock deserves to have that kind of instant pressure, especially since he's already a competent fighter with the leap and his speed.

I'm sure Destructor loses effectiveness later on in the game, perhaps too much, but in T1 I feel it's just too powerful. Perhaps if it's toned down, it could get a scaling improvement for T2. Effectiveness later than that is irrelevant I should think as lots of abilities become unimpressive late game.

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