Space Marine Topic

[Caeltos]

Discuss Space Marine performance here.

[Dark Riku]

Recent Apo health nerf seemed out of the blue to me.
Now he only has 50 more hp than retail and the same shitty heal :/

At least make his standard heal a little better again.
Like 130-150 health per model instead of 110.


Librarian is still lackluster too.
Only reason to get him (well for me at least) is to babysit terminators.

He is so squishy in his role as melee.
If he get's knocked back it usually spells his doom.

[PanKiller]

Libby has more hp than apo and tanks more , and ppl do go apo in melee so whats your problem ?

[Kvek]

Libby has more hp than apo and tanks more , and ppl do go apo in melee so whats your problem ?

Even if he can tank more. If you lose Apo you can rebuy him for 250req-Libby is 350-60.
Apo has higher DPS. With purification rites he can counter many t1 melee units.
Or spam heals on himself in fight.

[Codex]

Compare him to the other subcommanders. Weirdboy is ranged, is tanky, has a disruptive normal attack, has warp vomit, so is very hard to kill. Autarch has insane speed and leap. Thus these subcommanders can contribute to the fight without really endangering themselves. Almost invariably one of these subcommanders lost is very avoidable, whereas a libby loss can be almost instant and without recourse.

Further to this, the fact that the librarian is a melee hero and comes quite late in the game, his 70 melee skill is not going to count for that much. That's a crucial point to consider: Apo does have heal etc but more importantly he will have some levels that will help him in melee skill battles. An underlevelled Apo should not be risked against stuff like Banshees, whereas a level 5 onwards Apo can safely smack away at any shees in 1v1 (even level 4 shees!), provided he has a trick up his sleeve so he can actually win the fight.

All things considered, it's very risky to throw such a hefty investment into a melee brawl. His wargears provide more health but at the same time they make him even more precious.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Maybe you aren't using correctly the Librarian.

I will not call squishy a 700 base hp commander armour unit with small size. And more if have one ability like the Quickering ability.

The Librarian isn't the spearhead of your army, it's a support unit with a good ranged ability and good melee damage which also inspires the rest of the army with any melee kill.

Have i to say the awesome synergy that the Librarian has with the rest of the army? And not only the ol' n good Veil of Time + Devastators with heavy bolter/Lasscannon (which even with the nerfs still is a very powerfull combo)

- Smite + Assault Marines squad. For example: Smite in enemy HWT. Bye bye a not bad amount of health. Assault Marines jump on the HWT. Enemy HWT model losses guaranteed.

I said Assault Marines, but it could be any SM squad, to turn a very tight battle into your favour or simply to compensate the "lower" SM damage against other enemy squads. (Plasma Sargent Tacts against MoT AC EW CSM)

- Veil of Time + SM squad: Not only in Devastators, Terminators or the commander: VoT in Scouts to retreat grenade; VoT in Missile Launcher Tacs to shot the last missile to that vehicle or to flank and obtain rear armour hits, or in Sterguard with the DoT damage munition to kill that retreating low hp commander/squad; VoT in Assault Marines, which turned into Vanguard could be a great retreat killing squad...

- Gate of Infinity: not only in Terminators, could be used in any squad where even a retreat could result a squad wipe.

Maybe the main problem is like the GK Librarian: have great buffs and good damage, but simply it's outshined by other unit.

But still you have some right: it's very painfull to lose it, and more with upgrades, and relatively easy to lose it.

To help him in melee stance i would suggested to change a bit Quickering, which at the moment it's a ROLF YOUR ATTACKS ARE AS WEAK AS A LITTLE GIRLS ONES! ability to a weaker one but with longer duration.

At the moment, Quickering reduce 90% damage taken and gives +3 speed for 5 seconds. I suggest to change it to reduce 70% damage taken and +3 speed for 10 seconds.

I also suggest to increase a bit the ranged damage of the Force Staff. Yeah, i know that was increased one or two patches before. Only a bit one more.

[Indrid]

Pretty sure the Librarian starts with 800 HP.

Even if he can tank more. If you lose Apo you can rebuy him for 250req-Libby is 350-60.
Apo has higher DPS. With purification rites he can counter many t1 melee units.
Or spam heals on himself in fight.

How does the Apo have more DPS? Maybe if he's levelled up alot, but the Lib starts with a 55 dps power weapon, the Apo's power axe is ~47 dps. The Lib's staff is 71 dps power melee which is more than the Autarch's spear, and now the staff does good ranged damage too.

[Kvek]

Oh. He has more damage per hit but less per sec...my fault

[Dark Riku]

Pretty sure the Librarian starts with 800 HP.

Fact: Librarian starts with 700HP.

[Indrid]

Well derp.

[Nurland]

Yeah I think fully upgraded SM lib is 1000hp, each whoregear giving him 100 extra hp. Also vanilla Apo dps is something like 25 if it's not been changed since retail so as Indrid pointed out lib dps is way higher than apo's.

[Dark Riku]

Oh. He has more damage per hit but less per sec...my fault

No he does less dmg per hit and in dps values...

He does the same damage per hit as the vanilla sword of the libby only when upgraded to the power axe.

Could we please get back on track of the topic?
This damage stuff has nothing to do with the topic.

And look up info? ~~

[Codex]

No, obviously the Librarian isn't the spearhead of the army. But the fact remains that the moment he is committed to melee he can pretty much have a giant crosshair on his head. Yes, he is good in a support role, but sometimes you need that melee power to tip the balance and that is risky in itself.

Vanilla he costs 350/60, and his upgrades are:

Tome of Time 75/20
Psychic Hood 50/30
Force Staff 90/30

I think it's safe to assume that in general most players buy Tome of Time, so in general a Libby costs 425/80. With two upgrades that's already 475-515/110: comparable to a dreadnought's price.

EDIT:

Apparently I didn't even finish my post.

Anyway, he's very risky to lose, and relatively easy to considering how expensive he is.

[Magus Magi]

So, I'm a big fan of all the work that you guys have done on this Mod. It really is terrific. I've never posted on these forums before, and I don't play ELITE in any competitive way, so I understand if you all take the following suggestion with a grain of salt.

I'm a big fan of tactical marines/sternguard in ELITE. However, I feel as though they fall off a bit towards the tier 3 side of the game in a way that some other tier 1 squads don't. I suspect that I'm not the first person to sense this, because you lot originally buffed tactical marine bolter damage as part of earlier versions of ELITE.

My suggestion, which I proffer with all due deference to your design team, is some sort of tier 3 upgrade for tactical marines/sternguard akin to the Eternal War upgrade that exists for chaos space marine squads.

My feeling is that making the upgrade tier 3 will prevent tactical marines from dominating early play, while still providing a means for players to keep those marines competitive with later units. Given that an upgrade's cost reflects its impact on the game, I know that the ELITE team could make it effective while still keeping it balanced. I'd like to see tactical marines provide better fire support in the late game, beyond the occasional missile launcher shot, and I'd also like Sternguard to trounce Tzeentch marines (after all, you can only get one squad of the former). I understand if I'm asking too much.

While I'm at it, if you were looking for an ability name, I'm partial to "Bolter Drill" myself. Just a thought...

[FunkyMonkey]

Why should Sternguard trounce TCSM? Both are T2, TCSM with EW + AC is more expensive than Sternguards, and though Sternguards do less damage against HI, they are more flexible with their rounds against vehicles, cover, and normal inf. They also have ATSKNF. I'm not really sure why there's a limit of only 1 sternguard and 1 vanguard, but if you're saying that's a valid reason to make sternguard beating out over TCSM most of the time, then Sternguard should get a price increase to match their increased power.

As for the T3 upgrade for the Tactical squad, I'm ambivalent because I usually get Sternguard to replace my only tactical squad in T2 and SM T3 is powerful. I kind of see the rationale behind what you are saying though.

[sk4zi]

Of course, there is the reason that Sternguard Veterans are quite rare (flufflike).

the only suggetion i would have is that there is the Problem that farely leveld up SM Tactical squads loose their xp and atart off with level 1 again.

so flufflike a Sternguard Veteran squad is a level 5 Tactical Marine squad.
in my opinion they should have the more HP and damage from a leveld up SM squad.
maybe not level enymore then.

[Raffa]

Sternguard are a tactical unit. TCSM are a raw dps one. TCSM are also more expensive, so asking Sternguard to 'trounce' them is nothing more than a fluff wish.

Tacs are great in T3, scale with the best from T1.

Sternguard reset levels, but their levling is better than tacs so they will have more hp when they level. Sternguard are a long-term investment.

[Asmon]

SM T3 is very strong with Terminators, tanks and Vanguards. Those units are awesome and should remain the reason why one's purchasing T3. An upgrade for Sternguard Veterans would be either op or useless.

Don't forget they already level better than regular TSM.

[Magus Magi]

It was just a thought. I figured most of you guys wouldn't go for it, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.

I keep watching the replays cast by Indrid and feeling as though tactical marines become underwhelming towards the end of the game. Even sternguard get to the Nob-Terminator-Carnifex stage of the game and seem to become too much micro to bother with.

I just thought it might be interesting to present the player with an option to pour additional resources into tacticals/sternguard in the very late game as a way of increasing their fighting capabilities. I'm not really concerned with how many resources that would require in order to remain balanced, I just liked the idea of having the option.

You all have played in a much more competitive way than I have, and I'm sure there is a great deal that you get out of watching and playing ELITE that I don't. So, like I said before, I fully expected you to take my suggestion with a grain of salt.

[Kvek]

Even thought it could be possible they already can get av. anti HI/SHI. Anti garrison. And sternguard. They dont need extra options

[Dark Riku]

Why should Sternguard trounce TCSM? Both are T2, TCSM with EW + AC is more expensive than Sternguards,
...

I'm going to put that "more expensive" in perspective here if you don't mind:

TCSM (sarge,EW,mark) cost 40/15 more than sterngaurd.
Assuming the Sterngaurd didn't get an upgrade when they were tacs,
because they would cost more otherwise. And they lose the weapon upgrade.

[[Alpha]-0mega-]

They lose weapon upgrades but they gain 4 types of ammo, though I don't know how well the ammo types compare to TCSM inferno bolters.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

inferno is quite possible the best anti-infantry damage. it doesn't do as much damage to SHI as plasma but it works against everything.

[FunkyMonkey]

Yeah, but sternguard still have the anti-armor and the anti-cover rounds. I'm not really sure how the anti-inf rounds do against inferno rounds

With that said, as one of the other guys said, Sternguard is magnificently tactical. Maybe one of the factors contributing to why the guy didn't feel Sternguard were powerful enough against TCSM is because Sternguard upgrades reset the leveling, so it's quite possible that you'd have lvl 2 TCSM w/ upgrades against fresh sternguard, and perhaps the difference shows (I don't know enough about the leveling disparities)

[Asmon]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/p ... -elite-mod

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I think the Sternguard upgrade it's OK. With this upgrade, turns the Tactical Squad into a more flexible one.

Sternguard maybe aren't going to be as effective as a Tactical + Flamer against gens/garrison/infantry or as a Tactical + Plasma against HI or SHI or as a Tactical + Rocket launcher against vehicles.

But at the same time Tactical + Flamer aren't going to be as effective as a Sternguard against HI, SHI or vehicles; or a Tactical + Plasma as effective as Sternguard against low hp high model Infantry or Vehicles; or Tactical + Rocketlauncher as effective as Sternguard against infantry (in general, except some cases like SHI medium size units)

In fact, Sternguard overshadows TCSM against all targets except HI and SHI. And if TCSM is better than Sternguard against HI and SHI is for Eternal War. If not, Sternguard and TCSM would have almost the same DPS. (21.87 DPS against SHI/HI with Vengeance Rounds vs 22.69 DPS against HI/18.15 DPS against SHI)

[Nurland]

Inferno doesn't do less dmg to HI than vengeance. Lulferno does 125% dmg against HI, not 100%.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I will add that Sternguard overshadows TCSM killing Commanders, because all the DOTs damage goes against one model; and killing Infantry squads in retreat, while TCSM, with their higher raw DPS would kill them if they aren't retreating or out of cover.

Inferno doesn't do less dmg to HI than vengeance. Lulferno does 125% dmg against HI, not 100%.

That's i said. :/

And if TCSM is better than Sternguard against HI and SHI is for Eternal War. If not, Sternguard and TCSM would have almost the same DPS

Default Inferno: 22.69 DPS (18.15*1.25) against HI and 18.15 DPS against SHI.

From http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/p ... -elite-mod

Vengeance Rounds
21.87 DPS against heavy infantry and super-heavy infantry. 5.83 DPS against vehicles. 14.58 DPS piercing against infantry and commanders. Better against buildings than piercing: +50% damage against light buildings, else +100% damage. Range of 30 instead of 38.

[Lulgrim]

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... _vengeance
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... rno_bolter

[Magus Magi]

I really appreciate all of you taking the time to address my concerns on here. I've noticed a lot of discussion of raw dps, particularly in relation to sternguard vengeance rounds, and I'm not sure if that tells the whole story when it comes to sternguard in ELITE.

I know that you guys play many games that don't ever end up posted for public consumption. My opinions are based entirely on the games cast by Indrid. In many of those games, when sternguard make an appearance, I notice that the player using them doesn't always have time to switch their ammo types in combat. More often than not, they use hellfire or vengeance rounds continuously throughout large stretches of the game no matter what target is being engaged.

I feel that any discussion revolving around the efficacy of sternguard veterans in ELITE should include the fact that they require more attention than their counterparts in order to be as effective in game as they look on paper.

Tactical marine and sternguard dps is conditioned on the player using the right weapon at the right time. Many other more combat oriented units come with no such requirement. Moreover, it seems to me that even the best players have difficulty managing their tactical marine and sternguard weapon choices. I see a tier 3 damage upgrade as one way of alleviating some of the pressure on players using those squads in hectic end-game battles.