Space Marine Topic

[Dark Riku]

What is the apothecary supposed to do? Heal his troops right?
Currently he is lackluster in his dedicated nursing role.
Losing that HoT(Heal over time) really hurts.
Especially since healing over time has so much more advantages than flat heals.

Examples:
Apothecary heal: 60energy, 30sec cooldown.
Heals 110/model (+20 per 2 levels, +50 on commanders) (190/model on level 10)

Painboy for example is way better than the apothecary.
Painboy has 800HP instead of 600.
He does power melee (50dps vs 25piercing) AND has a DoT.
His standard heal is better 180HoT(12sec)+30/model= 210/model.
And his T2 upgrade doubles his heal effectiveness for a total of 410HP/model heal.
While apo only comes to 190HP/model once he is level 10!

Mekboy's 'Ave A Taste: 40 energy, 60sec cooldown.
Heals 150/model AND gives back 70energy.
You can target vehicles with this ability.

Warlock's channeling runes: 50energy, 60sec cooldown.
(must stay stationary though and a knockback stops the effect.
Not like apo should ever be in front of his army.)
Heals 15health/model/sec for 15 secs. That's 225HP/model.
And makes the unit do 15% more damage .
And increases their energy regeneration by 200%.

Farseer's Spiritual Rites: 80 energy, 45sec cooldown.
200health/model in an AoE around here.
And restores 60 energy to herself and everybody around her.

Lord general's Medi-kit: 60energy, 20 sec cooldown.
100HP/model.
LG doesn't even have to be near the squad after he gives them the pack.
Heal comes out of nowhere.


Please buff the apo's heal again. It's what he does. He's a nurse :p
It's so weird that all the other heals in the game are better than his.
And some are even better out the gate than his maximum potential is on level 10 heal-wise and then have extra benefits on top of it :/


Then about his wargear.
His bolter ability has a reduced range now. While similar things like the merciless Witchblade, WSE heavy filament and the WB Enhanced Kustom Shoota still have this big range. 1 of those even goes forever without costing energy and then another can go on for very long especially when combined with that commander's gayts. Doesn't make sense to me.

Armour of the Apothecarion is a waste of resources.
Would love to hear some remake thoughts on this wargear. (again)

[Asmon]

You're not talking about Apo's passive regeneration aura, whereas it's a constant healing over time ability.

Also healing abilities are mostly effective on units with great health pools, ie much better for Space Marines, GK and Chaos than for the other races. Spiritual rites for example will never benefit Eldar units as nicely as it would benefit Space Marines.

Healing over time needs to be casted at the beginning of the engagement when you play with low-hp models. You can't wait because models would start dropping otherwise. Which would not be the case for Space Marines. With them you'd have a much larger window to cast the spell and it makes a huge difference.

Besides, Armor of the Apothecarion gives the healing over time ability that you're searching for. It could be reworked but it's already good, just not a point-click ability. It works either you're in melee or in cover. It is simply overshadowed by the remaining armor choices.

[Ace of Swords]

You're not talking about Apo's passive regeneration aura, whereas it's a constant healing over time ability.

Also healing abilities are mostly effective on units with great health pools, ie much better for Space Marines, GK and Chaos than for the other races. Spiritual rites for example will never benefit Eldar units as nicely as it would benefit Space Marines.

Healing over time needs to be casted at the beginning of the engagement when you play with low-hp models. You can't wait because models would start dropping otherwise. Which would not be the case for Space Marines. With them you'd have a much larger window to cast the spell and it makes a huge difference.

Besides, Armor of the Apothecarion gives the healing over time ability that you're searching for. It could be reworked but it's already good, just not a point-click ability. It works either you're in melee or in cover. It is simply overshadowed by the remaining armor choices.

It's not viable simply because it slows you down too much in melee, and a ranged blob is extremely vulnerable, especially marine blobs, meanwhile if you go for the ranged option with the armor of the apothecarion you leave your ASM completely exposed.
Oh and yeah, getting that armor for the HoT means also that getting the improved medical equipment is a must.

[Raffa]

+1 to everything Riku and Ace have said. Apo is just a weak hero. The reason his weakness gets overlooked is because the best Apo mains (ie those 2) are such strong players, and almost nobody else plays him because of his shittiness.

At least make his heal 130 hp/model from the start, or increase his passive health regen aura a bit. Also think his heal on commanders should be changed so its double the normal amount of heal, not just +50. All 3 would probably make him over-competetive, not like like the fc and tm.

Armour of the Apothecarion ability should reduce his speed by 50% max, 85% is just ott.

The thing with Apo is also he has fluctuated between being very op to too weak and atm he's too weak.

Please buff the apo's heal again. It's what he does. He's a nurse :p

[Lag]

There is a strong difference between buying an item, or a unit, to perform a certain ability (meaning then you can't buy something else that might be fulfilling a different, albeit very needed role), and having it "for free". That's like me going on about how weak the Commissar's shield is, even though I can equip a misc item and still keep the shield.
Staying power is everything in this game. Having a "free" unit in the beginning which can provide that, and can further it's effectiveness as tiers go, is more than sufficient.
Comparing stuff like this is just bad theory-crafting. If it was a legit way to argue, then I could say that in order to do what the Apo does in his vanilla state, the LG must buy an armor, and a retinue member (which can be killed), must use energy to activate both of those abilities, and can't equip a different shield without losing his AEO healing . "SO UP." :\

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

It seems someone forget the PC Breath of Nurgle when decide to compare the Apo's heal with other heals

Still I have to admit that the Apo it's the weaker of all the three SM commanders. For his design, it's very weak against sniping abilities and BC/HT/CL.

Maybe should receive a weapon_knockback inmunity with any wargear, to make some matchups less painful?

I'm not a SM expert (well, not a expert at all about any race but maybe Chaos) but IMHO the reason (apart of Lag and Asmon said) about the Apo's weak healit's the SM snowball design and how the SM army evolve through Tiers and how the heal got buffed with the Apo's wargear.

[Dark Riku]

It seems someone forget the PC Breath of Nurgle when decide to compare the Apo's heal with other heals

I also didn't include the LG's healing armour.
Which atm is pretty bonkers. GM tanking melee units, tanking plague nades etc -.-

The thing is that those other heroes still perform different roles besides healing and also have an ability or more in case of Eldar from the start.

While the apo gear pretty much revolves around him healing.

[Raffa]

@Lag

I take, and agree with to an extent, your point but I think you're missing the issue here - the Apo is just a crap hero. I'm not saying he doesn't have his uses atm, but there's no real way to justify choosing him ahead of FC or TM.

If anyone actually thinks the Apo is a strong hero then I'd love to hear your argument. Cos I can't think of one. Apart from his very good synergy with the Warboss in 2s or 3s.

[Torpid]

There is a strong difference between buying an item, or a unit, to perform a certain ability (meaning then you can't buy something else that might be fulfilling a different, albeit very needed role), and having it "for free". That's like me going on about how weak the Commissar's shield is, even though I can equip a misc item and still keep the shield.
Staying power is everything in this game. Having a "free" unit in the beginning which can provide that, and can further it's effectiveness as tiers go, is more than sufficient.
Comparing stuff like this is just bad theory-crafting. If it was a legit way to argue, then I could say that in order to do what the Apo does in his vanilla state, the LG must buy an armor, and a retinue member (which can be killed), must use energy to activate both of those abilities, and can't equip a different shield without losing his AEO healing . "SO UP." :\

You're missing the point though. The apothecary is a nurse. Not a paladin warrior like the farseer. The farseer can kick ass in melee with her doombringer, casting spells all over the place and slaughtering everything AND then following it up with an amazing heal. The apothecary is a nurse... he can heal stuff, but what else does he do? Jack shit. He has terrible dps, poor utility, no AV etc etc. All he has is the MCB special and purification rites + his heal. All the other leaders main role is not to heal, they merely support, or in the case of the plague champion counter initiate or the farseer devastate armies (or at least that's how I play her). The apothecary is very one dimensional and the dimension he specialising in he sucks at, that's the crux of the issue.

[Lag]

Having a free heal (both AOE and targeted) for a race which doesn't lose models unless the squad is very low on health sounds pretty awesome to me. Imagine all of IG squads sharing damage (acting like Catas do) and the LG having an option to get his Medpacks for cheaper and more often.

[dance commander]

@Lag

I take, and agree with to an extent, your point but I think you're missing the issue here - the Apo is just a crap hero. I'm not saying he doesn't have his uses atm, but there's no real way to justify choosing him ahead of FC or TM.

If anyone actually thinks the Apo is a strong hero then I'd love to hear your argument. Cos I can't think of one. Apart from his very good synergy with the Warboss in 2s or 3s.

When compared to the FC, everything is crap.

Anyway you can't buff his heal, it's true other commanders have also healing abilities but other commanders don't have to heal the same units the apo has to.

As Asmon (I think) already said with eldar and orks you have to trigger the heal much sooner than the apo one, (not to mention the lower cooldown), for example: depending on the engagement and upgrades a banshee or slugga squad can start losing members (bleeding and losing effectiveness as a concequence) much sooner than a tactical or assault marine squad, you can wait for the ASM to reach 20% health before triggering the heal and you would still have a very good chance of having all the models, it means you have much more time between heals and a higher chance to trigger more than one in a single engagement, also more time to soak damage with your asm (damage that will be wasted, because of the low chance of a model dying, while it will be replenished by the heal, allowing for more fighting time at full effectiveness, while chances are your opponent will already be ready to leave the field with some of his units) and more importantly, it means you don't have to bleed as much.

Having a better heal would just make bleeding impossible and increasing the apo's army staying power way too much, it would become much worse than it used to be when the apo was plain op with its HoT, since the SM t1 is that much stronger compared to retail, Apo is not a bad commander but it's also not op right now, like all average commander it has its bad match up, (tanky, pushy commanders in the early game) but like the farseer wich has the same weakness, if he manages to transition well to t1.5-t2 he gets better. Please don't compare it to the force commander and techmarine, those are just overperforming commanders, it would be like comparing the PC to a CL or Sorcerer, wich are just plain better than him in 1v1, at least the apo has some representation from players in 1v1s.

[Ace of Swords]

Yeah because when apo's heal had the HoT it was so OP right?

@lag
Shall we take into consideration both the melee and ranged starting damage of the LG? Or the staying power he has of which you talk so much? He can easily beat ranged starting squads in both melee and ranged, and can reinforce on the field giving him tons of staying power.
Plus it's able to heal AND to support his troops while still doing very good DPS, exactly what has the apo? He has no staying power, he has no damage to start off, pretty low with bolter and decent with power axe, which is greatly affected by his own staying power on how effective it really is, he has no support, Combat stimulants? They directly lock out the healing capacities of the apo since armor of purity IS a mandatory considering how the CD on his heal was increased in elite and it's still a mere 25% damage buff, which is quite shit in all honestly, for example the FS starts off with an ability that increases damage by 30% AND range, and works on vehicles too meanwhile the LG can almost grant damage immunity to his ranged blob with the armor + refractor shield.

[Torpid]

Having a free heal (both AOE and targeted) for a race which doesn't lose models unless the squad is very low on health sounds pretty awesome to me. Imagine all of IG squads sharing damage (acting like Catas do) and the LG having an option to get his Medpacks for cheaper and more often.

Yeah, sure the apothecary works fine at first, and even in t2, but the problem revolves around him sucking later on when his heal doesn't take units back to full hp, when he dies in seconds due to focus fire and when the other commanders contributions to a fight end up taking out multiple squads.

The apothecary needs more scalibility still, even though his wargears have been buffed and although his economy is pretty nice, he himself is still relatively useless in combat even compared to some of the other support commanders which is why playing him is never as successful as playing FC/TM, ultimately having a FC with a power sword next to your asm is far stronger than a heal+extra knockback, not to mention how one-dimensional the apothecary is, compared to both the FC and TM.

[Vapor]

Some sort of t3 upgrade for the apo that buffs his heal would be nice.

[Lag]

Having a free heal (both AOE and targeted) for a race which doesn't lose models unless the squad is very low on health sounds pretty awesome to me. Imagine all of IG squads sharing damage (acting like Catas do) and the LG having an option to get his Medpacks for cheaper and more often.

Yeah, sure the apothecary works fine at first, and even in t2, but the problem revolves around him sucking later on when his heal doesn't take units back to full hp, when he dies in seconds due to focus fire and when the other commanders contributions to a fight end up taking out multiple squads.

The apothecary needs more scalibility still, even though his wargears have been buffed and although his economy is pretty nice, he himself is still relatively useless in combat even compared to some of the other support commanders which is why playing him is never as successful as playing FC/TM, ultimately having a FC with a power sword next to your asm is far stronger than a heal+extra knockback, not to mention how one-dimensional the apothecary is, compared to both the FC and TM.

You mean like the Inq? Unless she grabs the Mandate thingie, she dies in 2 seconds to focused fire.

[Raffa]

@dance
You are considering Apo Heal almost as an abstract concept (greater field presence etc), and are pretty much ignoring the stats themselves:

110 hp/model. For a hero that relies on healing, and that ability to do it.

I mean have you thought about how small that is? I understand you're concerned about how it would be harder to bleed him if Heal was buffed but it would still certainly be doable.

Otherwise I don't buy any of the stuff that says he's ok atm. If you think so go play Apo and then come back and say he's fine.

Buffing Heal to 130 hp/model seems the most reasonable fix.

[Caeltos]

Stop.

Comparing.

Commanders.

They all function very differently from one another, since the universal factions are not even remotely close to each other in terms of statistical values & what-have-you. They all serve their own niché. I'm largely just seeing "dis commander is better than mine, I want it to be as good at dat at whatever-she/he does!11 evntho we don't share the same armyiessszzz".

It's more crucial to bring up the substance of the inperfections of the performance of the said unit(or whatever) that makes the general army composition/army performance not as good as, what one is to expect of large number of variables. Some cases, it might just be a cost ineffiency, so you can easily try to tune it down through cost cuts, which helps aid future-timing unit/upgrade investments that can turn the tide of fights. Otherwise, the pricing might be right, but the ability/performance is not good enough, but the pricing/cost in general is good- so you're looking at making a straight buff. Otherwise, sometimes both are off, so it'll require a tweak.

Yeah because when apo's heal had the HoT it was so OP right?

Yes, because it was broken with the game mechanics. Health regeneration and it's previous HOT was causing heal spikes that were just downright silly. I find it more important to find work-arounds or limitations to it.

The Apothecary was previously more centric around just healing stuff, and doing close to crap all combat-effiency. And it's mechanics were downright straight-forward for an relatively quick & effient combat advantage. It was abit over-the-top. Now, the futuristic approach is a more combatative-oriented Apothecary, that has still the option to improve his allies combat effiency through sustainability. However, it's not really as prodominant as before. It's more of an exchange. (Baring in mind with some adjustments/changes to his wargear selection)

So in a nutshell, the new Apothecary is more dependant on getting the right wargear for the right situation, rather than just waiting for the unit healthbars to drop low, to kick in with his effiency. The downside is of course, more investment requirement. Which is not to be one of Space Marines strong aspects. (Altho, to some extent, subjective depending on your preferal build order)

[Codex]

Okay, I usually don't like to come out and write long ass balance posts, but some things that have been said have really struck a chord with me in some places and made me shudder from the jaw-dropping nature of it all.

Perhaps it is lesser known but I have mained Apo during the life of DOW2 far longer than I have mained FC. I've seen almost all of the iterations of Apo in action, and played most of those.

Spiritual rites for example will never benefit Eldar units as nicely as it would benefit Space Marines.

Well, yes, of course if you compare the NOMINAL value of the heals, and the window of opportunity to get a good heal off. But the fact of the matter is that even Eldar will get a good damage spread during the fight, meaning that they will not drop too many models until spirit rites becomes epic. The major cases of dropping a couple of models quickly is when the squads are kiting, and fleet of foot mostly alleviates that.

On the other hand, if you are using spirit rites on 3-4 units, including the FS herself, and one of those units is a banshee squad, then you've created a situation where that burst heal can be just as effective (overall) as a touch of nurgle heretic charge. So long as you follow up with banshee retreat chase, you're going to cause some serious hurt.

Since Eldar are glass cannons, I would say that the AOE heal is just AS effective, if not more, in influencing a fight than a burst single target heal on a tough low-model squad. In part I agree with Caeltos, we can't do direct comparisons. But if you do make a comparison, you have to take into account ALL of the variables. Heal on glass cannons makes them superwtfpwnage in combat due to their ability to outdamage anything, whereas healing a tough unit gives them more sustainability which allows them outlast anything.

Saying that the heal will never benefit Eldar as much as SM is just not true, considering that by the time you pop off spirit stones your banshees might have already done more than half of the work.

Re: Heal.

Imo, the heal out of the gate is a little lackluster. I totally agree the HOT had to go, as with certain interactions (like healing a Warboss from nothing to full with just a Now I'm Angry and a vanilla heal) were just stupid. That said, I think the heal might not have been compensated enough for the loss of the HOT.

Taking into account that the Apo's heal scales with levels, the heal becomes good at level 3, and impressive by the time he's level 5. And then there's the fact that he can combine that with purification rites, and Armor of Purity, I think once he has levels (as with all things Spess Mehreen) he's in a good place.

This is part of the reason I favour a T1 Sanguine Chainsword so much in 1v1, it gives him sustainability, (if only there were neutral creeps on the map for me to regen on ), which in turn means he'll be retreating less often, fighting more often, getting xp and levels more often. It dissuades the enemy from focus firing him, and with the pistol heal it allows him to tank quite a lot of ranged damage if you just use cover wisely.

The levels hugely benefit Apo, with a better heal, more energy, more hp... in my mind it's totally worth it, even though it doesn't scale into the late game. I see the SC as an investment.

Going back to the heal, I feel that if we buff the heal out of the gate, the scaling of the heal has to be nerfed a little. Although I should state that the heal may not require a direct buff per se.

[Armor of the Apothecarion] is not viable simply because it slows you down too much in melee, and a ranged blob is extremely vulnerable, especially marine blobs, meanwhile if you go for the ranged option with the armor of the apothecarion you leave your ASM completely exposed.

Maybe we're using it wrong then. Ace, while I agree with your points about the downsides of the advanced heal, perhaps its primary use is to give you map sustainability (removing the need for retreats) and when combined with say a razorback mean that you can keep the momentum going. Healing in combat would be a secondary use and would have to be toggled to get the best usage out of it. Further to this you can still target heal on your ASMs. In the end FC's Defend has downsides too but that's why you toggle it to energy manage it.

That said I do I feel that the AoA is overpriced now. I feel that a major part of the reason it cost 150/50 was that it used to provide a chance to self-revive, and now that it is gone from Elite I think a small cost reduction may make it more attractive.

[Major Richard Sharpe]

I typically only use the Armour of the Apothecarion at the end of a engagement (in order to heal my men) or during those engagements in which the enemy rushes into close combat with my marines or when my men start taking massive HP loss (but not fatalities). However, of those moments, when the enemy barges in for CQC, purification rites (and probably the grenade, but i don't use them) seem to serve me better than a simple 'mass heal'. additionally, the increased speed given to wearers of the armour of the Apothecarion is actually not helpful for supporting a blob, Master crafted bolter wielding medics with the AOA tend to defeat themselves because they wind up as vanguard, despite being too squishy for that purpose. AOA should probably be reworked, the speed bonus combined with the advanced healing clashes. (and no, i don't have any suggestions at this moment)

[Kvek]

AoA isn't that bad, but it's high cost and the fact that AoP is a lot better just makes it bad.

[Dark Riku]

Something that came up again in an other topic and has been on my mind
(and on posts of mine) for a long time now: Scout Snipers.


These things are still overpriced.
I never use them anymore since they are way too pricy and don't give you much on the field. I haven't seen them used to any great effect by anyone else either.
It's more of a recourse drain handed over to your opponent. Since you can't buy useful units/upgrades anymore with the resources you wasted on the snipers.

Scout snipers really under perform when you compare them to Rangers:
Rangers cost less;
fire faster: 7.5 vs 12 secs;
see further and detect (and detect further);
have a shotgunblast across the map.

Scouts are faster (as long as the rangers don't use FoF);
Can get grenades and more health at a price.


Suggestion1:
Reduce the price to 100/25
Make them fire each 7.5 secs
Reduce dmg to 160

This will allow you to get snipers for the damage since that is all they provide.
They will still be worse than rangers since rangers detect and provide you with great utility: kinetic pulse, better sight&detection range,
holo fields (when upgraded).


Suggestion2:
keep the price (100/35)
Make them fire each 7.5 secs
Give them a knock back attack across the map
Make them a detection squad with speed:6.5 sight:60 detect:40
Edit: change reinforcement cost to 50/5
Edit: Change the upgrade time to 25 secs
Sergeant and this upgrade can't be used together

These changes would finally justify the steep price snipers have at the moment.
They can finally provide you with something on the battlefield.



The stats as reference right now:

Sniper Scouts (210/0+100/35) = 310/35
Speed:6.5 sight 55
170dmg fires every 12secs
No ability.

Can be upgraded to detect / grenade / more HP for 75/25.
Can be upgraded to infiltrate / regen HP&energy rapidly out of combat for 50/15.


Rangers = 300/30
Speed:5.5 sight:60
160dmg, fires every 7.5 secs
Ability: kinetic pulse (shotgunblast across the map)
Detect:40

Can be upgraded to
infiltrate / AoE infiltrate/ FoF / get back 65weapon range from 55 for 50/10.

[FiSH]

I agree with the snipers being expensive, but making the power cost less than suppression team seems too cheap. With that said, I obviously think that option 1 is too cheap.
On the other hand, option 2 makes more sense, although that option means you basically get rangers that can also repair vehicles. Seems this option is too good too...
Lastly, arent serg 25 power?

[Dark Riku]

Lastly, arent serg 25 power?

Thx for the Typo spot. Fixed it.

[Codex]

I think you have to take into account a few things though:

a) Upgrades have always cost more than buying a base unit:

C.f. MOKCSM cost a lot more than say buying bloodletters out of the gate in t2, and usually if you lose CSM it is more cost efficient to buy bloodletters than KCSM if you want heavy infantry killers.

b) Scouts reinforce for 1 power more, but 15 req less which imo is reinforcing for less. Besides, the models are fast, bleed shouldn't be a terrible problem.

c) Scouts benefit from having 6 speed, making them much harder to catch, and more importantly impossible to catch for most ranged squads if the snipers have infiltrate. They can still get caught by jump troops, but should be infiltrated to minimise this risk.

Related to this Rangers have 55 range out of the gate in mod, but don't have infiltration, so practically they cost 350/40 to get the utility you want from them, even if the upgrade is practically braindead purchase, and the Scout squad with sniper and infiltrate comes in at a comparable cost.

d) Scout 50/15 upgrade gives them insane energy and hp regen, giving them far superior map sustainability than Rangers. They have very short downtimes and as a result can have a big game impact.

In my opinion the increased mobility of scout snipers necessitates that they have the shorter range weapon (55 for scouts vs 65 for upgraded rangers).

e) You get a scout free out of the gate, which reduces the overall cost for acquiring a sniper rifle for your composition.

In light of these considerations, I think scouts are economically in a fine place. It isn't all downsides with this unit, however I do think that the refire rate is a little long.

At most I would say reduce the refire rate to 10 seconds, no other changes necessary.

[Dark Riku]

b) Scouts reinforce for 1 power more, but 15 req less which imo is reinforcing for less. Besides, the models are fast, bleed shouldn't be a terrible problem.

Fair Point, will work that into the suggestion.
A new reinforce cost of 50/5 would be in order I think

Related to this Rangers have 55 range out of the gate in mod, but don't have infiltration, so practically they cost 350/40 to get the utility you want from them, even if the upgrade is practically braindead purchase, and the Scout squad with sniper and infiltrate comes in at a comparable cost.

Rangers with infiltration are 350/40.
Sniper scouts with infiltration are 360/50.
10 power more is a lot. Especially in T1.
And the rangers still have all the benefits over the scouts.
Shoot faster, kb across the map, AoE infiltration, detect (further), see further.

35 power is way too much for a sniper rifle that shoots a whopping 60% slower
and does NOTHING else.

[caralimon]

Don't forget something very important, Scouts also have the Melee Resistance Aura as opposed to Rangers, which is a huge plus when it comes to surviving, specially against their best early game counter, jump troops.

Also, relevant to safety is the fact that Scout Snipers have no Windup-Wind down while Rangers do (0.2-0.8), which makes Scouts a little bit safer compared to Rangers. The rate of fire comparison is abysmal for Scouts, though.

I don't think making Sniper Scouts a Rangers clone-like is a good idea. Decreasing damage to 160 would mean no longer 1-shotting Aspect Banshees (162.5 HP), nor 2-shotting CSM (325 HP).

I do think Sniper Scouts fire at a too slow rate for their 35 Power cost, though. I think a price tweak to 110-120/30 could be tried out, or alternatively, a slight reduction to their cooldown/reload so their rate of fire is a bit higher, as Codex said.


P.S: A crazy idea would be this (bear with me here): Leave them as they are, but reduce their Setup and Teardown time from 1.5 secs to 1 sec so they're the uber-safe Snipers, and they don't lose as much of their capping role in the SM roster when upgraded to Snipers. This would also synergize with the "Speed" theme of the squad.

Edit: I forgot, If Snipers gets any of these "buffs", the upgrade "build time" should probably be increased from 15s to something like 25s, since with the starting Scout Squad you can have a Sniper in the field bleeding models from VERY early in the game.

[Dark Riku]

Also, relevant to safety is the fact that Scout Snipers have no Windup-Wind down while Rangers do (0.2-0.8), which makes Scouts a little bit safer compared to Rangers.

This has no real impact ingame as far as I know.
And with those changes the scouts can just get a copy paste from the rangers which includes this neglectable 'inconvenience".

Edit: I forgot, If Snipers gets any of these "buffs", the upgrade "build time" should probably be increased from 15s to something like 25s, since with the starting Scout Squad you can have a Sniper in the field bleeding models from VERY early in the game.

This is a valid point. I will edit option number 2 with this.

[Torpid]

So... When do Catachans get a sniper rifle upgrade?

I also think one reason why rangers are so cheap is because they are the only eldar detector and in some MUs you don't want the snipers but end up getting them just for the detection, in that scenario the rangers do need to be cheap.

[Codex]

Rangers with infiltration are 350/40.
Sniper scouts with infiltration are 360/50.
10 power more is a lot. Especially in T1.

Yes, but as I said in point a), upgraded units have always cost more.

I think if they fired faster that would be enough. Start with 10 seconds, continue reducing it if necessary.

[Ace of Swords]

I agree with pretty much of what riku said, the cost and the fire rate needs tweaking, but beside that, they offer nothing, and since i don't like homogenization of units, it would be nice if sniper scouts came with an ability but not the same as rangers, maybe it could be 'spot target' selects 1 model and for the next 10 seconds that model (works on commanders and subcommanders aswell as vehicles (op?)) and it would increase the damage that such unit takes by 15%.