Further 2.7 Balance discussion

[boss]

Just make it normal upkeep then it wont be so bad cos atm don't get endless swarm unless you want to get t3 your income will be shit cos for some reason fex upkeep is the same as a super unit 57.36 when a fucking leman russ is only 45.9 I fucking faceplam. Also make termagants 240 rec I don't no why they went to 260 rec also if I hear nid op I will get triggered

[Dark Riku]

Nids OP.

[Oddnerd]

Vanilla termagants are probably the worst unit in the game. Reduced upkeep and initial cost seems fair enough.

[hiveminion]

Vanilla termagants are probably the worst unit in the game. Reduced upkeep and initial cost seems fair enough.

They do more melee dps than ranged dps which is kinda funny.

[boss]

So does default shootas but then termagants are not shootas boys but yea that need to go down in cost and fix the high upkeep for gaunts

[Aguxyz]

Vanilla termagants are probably the worst unit in the game. Reduced upkeep and initial cost seems fair enough.

thats not how you spell scouts

[Kvn]

thats not how you spell scouts

*Rangers

[Atlas]

Just in case people are wondering where 3.825 comes from, it's just 2.55 x 1.5. So it's 50% more than "standard".
Likewise, 3.1875 is 2.55 x 1.25.

[Impregnable]

Reason 7 - Nidz, Orks cannot fight a ranged battle without spending power for their ranged units while SM, Chaos can. SM and Chaos can do whatever they want with remaining power after producing Tac, CSM and Orks, Nidz must passively counter what SM, Chaos brings while struggling with power shortage. This is unfair because upgrades for Orks, Nidz basic units are absolutely necessary.

So it's fair that a 240-270 req cost unit can out-duel a 450 req unit flat out? There's not a whole lot to discuss on this one.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3024

Sounds familiar.

The question is. Is elite mod team game mod or 1 v 1 mod?
When it comes down to balancing isn't priority 1 v 1 first and then team game next?

[Adeptus Noobus]

What is this heresy I am reading here? Comparing Tacs/CSM and Termagants in a vacuum is just wrong. First of all Tacs and CSM are supposed to dominate ranged fights. Second, if you tie up Tacs in melee combat, you have just basically reduced the entire effective damage output of the SM player to almost 0. Let us also not forget that while Termagants out-dps Tacs they also get these nifty things called "snare" and "health" and +45% dmg for 75/15. Let us not even talk about the reinforcement costs of aforementioned units.

Regarding Endless Swarm - The reason why Termagants now produce more pop and upkeep is because before the changes to ES, the two extra models would not cost you neither pop nor upkeep which was extremely stupid considering what it gives you (die last, 2 for 1, extra models).

EDIT: A drop to 3 per pop would be reasonable. The upkeep must reflect the effectiveness of the upgrade though!

@Impregnable That is a gross missrepresentation of Shootas. Let's look at what they become if you invest power into them:

Big Shootas - 2x 15.27 dps which is now their main damage output so losing models is not that painful anymore. You also have more range and the ability to suppress on demand.

Nob leader - 285hp leader with 70 melee skill and 16dps extra for the squad while buffing the dmg output by another 15%. He detects in radius 30 as well and is die-last.

That makes them quite formidable and able to best Tacs and CSM ez mode. Let's not even talk about what they will do to light infantry or generators. Fully upgraded Shootas always require heavy power investments to counter for SM. Not so much for Chaos who can just go Grenade Launchers (which will still get either tied up or shot to pieces).

[Impregnable]

@Impregnable That is a gross missrepresentation of Shootas. Let's look at what they become if you invest power into them:

Please read the post in the link sir. This ain't my view. I am just pointing out about similar thread since it is related to this problem imo.

[boss]

Endless swarm ends 2 pop per unit which means since gaunts have such high upkeep = 7.65 per unit your losing per min X3 = 22.95 your loosing sure your gaunts wont bleed but your income will be shit so no it not worth it at all if it wont be so high then it will be fine, it that to much to ask to for to reduce the upkeep for gaunts?

Also I thing to point adeptus default termagants so less damage than Guardsman's with out their upgrade so reduce their cost to 240 wont break the game

[Adeptus Noobus]

Endless swarm ends 2 pop per unit which means since gaunts have such high upkeep = 7.65 per unit your losing per min X3 = 22.95 your loosing sure your gaunts wont bleed but your income will be shit so no it not worth it at all if it wont be so high then it will be fine, it that to much to ask to for to reduce the upkeep for gaunts?

Also I thing to point adeptus default termagants so less damage than Guardsman's with out their upgrade so reduce their cost to 240 wont break the game

I have edited my post regarding upkeep.

Guardsmen lose to Termagants - both vanilla.

[boss]

Guardsmen's with the sage witch you get anyways will win vs default terms it only when you get toxin you can win and even then you can still sometimes lose

[Torpid]

Okay guys let's not get ridiculous now.

This 'problem' has come purely from theory-crafting - looking at upkeep numbers and finding it shocking that nids are different.

Gaunt upkeep has been at this level since retail retribution release AT LEAST. Why in all the years has nobody found this an issue before?

Nobody has ever complained about gaunt upkeep before. Bear in mind that whilst they do have abnormal per-pop upkeep, they also have abnormal per pop dps. A shoota boy is 2 pop per boy, whereas a termagant is 1 pop. In general nids do the most damage per pop. Hormagaunts have the highest damage per pop of any unit in the game, excluding sub-commanders I guess.

[Torpid]

Guardsmen's with the sage witch you get anyways will win vs default terms it only when you get toxin you can win and even then you can still sometimes lose

Makes sense that GM+sarge > termagants. GM + sarge are a ranged superiority unit that costs over 300 req. Termagants cost 260.

Also termagants beat them in melee.

Also termagants fire in bursts unlike guardsmen which have a more consistent firing pattern. Burst damage is always superior to non-burst since you snipe model faster and in general can shoot, and kite out of range to take less damage whilst inflicting more.

Let's not be biased in our analyses...

[boss]

torpid I thought this was fix in elite I had no idea that their upkeep was the same till I just look 2 days ago hence why in retail yo had to throw them away come t2 to t3 . it clear when you see endless swarm now adds 7.65 upkeep for 2 gaunts this is stupid cos of the high upkeep gaunts and I will keep crying about this till you fix this . Termagants are crap for 260 rec 10 les then da or shootas .......... I don't want them to melee I want them to shoot or I just go 3 Hormagaunts build if I want melee

[Psycho]

Also termagants fire in bursts unlike guardsmen which have a more consistent firing pattern. Burst damage is always superior to non-burst since you snipe model faster and in general can shoot, and kite out of range to take less damage whilst inflicting more.

https://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php ... men_lasgun
https://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php ... termagaunt

They have the exact same firing pattern, and I don't think it was changed from the 2.3.1 version the respective pages are last updated to.

[Forestradio]

Also termagants beat them in melee.

L I G H T N I N G C L A W T E R M A G A N T S

[Aguxyz]

Also termagants beat them in melee.

L I G H T N I N G C L A W T E R M A G A N T S

L I G H T N I N G C L A W T E R M A G A N T S

[guymandude]

Is Torpid the balance arbiter now, or is it still Caeltos?

[boss]

Is Torpid the balance arbiter now, or is it still Caeltos?

Yes is torpid


So when gaunts made great again?

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[guymandude]

Yes is torpid

I haven't been here in a while. When did this happen? And is Caeltos still involved?

[Rostam]

could u give the Commissar lord "Bolt Pistol" model . it looks better on him , even the normal commissars have bolt pistols . Atlas told me the balance wouldnt change so i guess it would be cool to see it
like giving fc the bolt pistol with his power sword as u did in the last patch

[Crewfinity]

3.1875 per pop for 12 pop total for good multi specialized 1.5 squad is not the same as 3.825 per pop for 24-40 (3-4 squads with or w\o endless swarm) for the very basic t1 infantry squad.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the way upkeep works is that gaunts will always be charged 3.825 per pop once you go over 30 pop, and up to 50% of your army in pop is gaunts.
"Regardless of the order the units are purchased in, the most expensive ones are always taxed first, while the units with cheapest upkeep go to the bottom of the list."
So basically nids pay higher upkeep than anyone esle if they have 3 squads of gants in their army. 50 pop nids army (let's say, 30 pop in warriors and 20 pop in gaunts models) payes the same upkeep as 60 pop army of eldar (let's say, 24 pop in 2 falcons and 34 models of da). The same 76.5 upkeep total.
For me it highly encourages to throw all gaunts away past early t2, considering they do not scale well, and swap them for any other squads which are 2.55 upkeep per pop - this way my eco will be better (up to 50% less upkeep).

Endless swarm is just plain out hurtful in that case, even if it was a free upgrade.

So yeah, nids eco is weak because of that. How am i supposed to spam multiple carnifexes to counter a tank if all my req already y spent on gaunts?

Again, correct me if i am wrong in my calculations - i want to wrong in that case. Because from now on termagants for me are straight up the worst unit in the game.

yeah, you're wrong in your calculations....
First of all, the extra 2 gaunt models from endless swarm dont cost you any pop or upkeep. so a full squad of either one with endless swarm (or without) costs 8 population and 30.6 upkeep.

taking a look at your example -

Nids
2x termagaunts - 16 pop, 61.2 upkeep (3.825 upkeep/pop)
1x hormagaunts - 8 pop, 30.6 upkeep (3.825 upkeep/pop)
1x warrior brood - 15 pop, 38.25 upkeep (2.55 upkeep/pop)
1x venom brood - 15 pop, 38.25 upkeep (2.55 upkeep/pop)
totals - 54 population, total upkeep 168.3

however, since it only charges you upkeep for your most expensive models, and your first 30 population is free, the warriors and venom brood don't cost you any upkeep, meaning that your total applied upkeep is just 24*3.825 = 91.8 upkeep


Eldar
2x dire avengers (w/ exarch) - 26 pop, 66.3 upkeep (2.55 upkeep/pop)
1x banshees (with exarch) - 18 pop, 38.45 upkeep (2.14 upkeep/pop)
guardian weapons team - 9 pop, 22.95 upkeep (2.55 upkeep/pop)
falcon - 12 pop, 30.6 upkeep (2.55 upkeep/pop)
totals - 65 population, total upkeep 158.3

Now in this case, the standard upkeep is what you'll be paying, for 35 population total. this means that your total applied upkeep is actually 2.55*35 = 89.25 upkeep

if we were to add an additional hormagaunt squad to the above nid army, you would have to pay an additional 30.6 in upkeep. if you decide to get raveners instead, you'd have to pay an additional 38.25 in upkeep. So this is where you're getting off track - while it is true that the itty bitty nids have very high upkeep per population, they also have very low population per squad. This means that they end up paying essentially the same upkeep for equitable army sizes. Another factor is that they dont have to buy any leader upgrades - instead their squads scale from the synapse mechanic. other races have to spend large amounts on buying leaders and then pay the upkeep on them, leading to very high population squads. meanwhile nids can just plow on to T3 and get carnifexes

[boss]

First of crew your wrong

Hormagaunts Brood/Termagant Brood
•Endless Swarm now increases the maximum squad count by 2. (no die-last leaders) 2.6 even say so in the tooltips when you abuse op tyranids
Hence why no go endless swarm unless you want to pay 7.65 for 2 litte gaunts

If you really think nids can just plow though to t3 then might be why their your worst race their not orks you no who can just skip tech

[Crewfinity]

First of crew your wrong

Hormagaunts Brood/Termagant Brood
•Endless Swarm now increases the maximum squad count by 2. (no die-last leaders) 2.6 even say so in the tooltips when you abuse op tyranids
Hence why no go endless swarm unless you want to pay 7.65 for 2 litte gaunts

All that the change in 2.6 says is that the endless swarm models don't die last anymore.... Doesn't say a word about upkeep or population changes. Are you sure that those were changed as well without any documentation?

[Crewfinity]

regardless of whether or not the endless swarm models cost you pop/upkeep, that's still only 7.65 upkeep/minute for each squad... meaning that if you lose 2 or more gaunt/gant from that squad each minute, it's still a net positive on your economy (each gaunt model costs 15 and gants are 16 to reinforce).

Lets assume you're correct, and look at a scenario where you have 2 gants and 1 gaunt squad. we can compare the total economic impact of those squads over the duration of a minute based on different squad losses.

without endless swarm (over a 1 minute duration): total upkeep is 91.8
taking 2 model losses from each squad: (16*4) + (15*2) = 94 reinforcement cost - 185.8 total cost/minute
taking 4 model losses from each squad: (16*8) + (15*4) = 188 reinforcement cost - 279.8 total cost/minute
taking 6 model losses from each squad (shouldn't have blobbed into that doombolts man): (16*12) + (15*6) = 282 reinforcement cost - 373.8 total cost/minute


with endless swarm (over a 1 minute duration): total upkeep is 114.75
taking 2 model losses from each squad: (16*2) + (15*1) = 47 reinforcement cost - 161.75 total cost/minute
taking 4 model losses from each squad: (16*4) + (15*2) = 94 reinforcement cost - 208.75 total cost/minute
taking 6 model losses from each squad: (16*6) + (15*3) = 141 reinforcement cost - 255.75 total cost/minute

if you lose 2 models from each squad every minute, you'll end up saving 24.05 req/minute if you get endless swarm
if you lose 4 models from each squad every minute, you'll end up saving 71.05 req/minute if you get endless swarm
if you lose 6 models from each squad every minute, you'll end up saving 118.05 req/minute if you get endless swarm


okay maybe that's being a little harsh, you're probably not losing that many models/minute.... what you're complaining about is the upkeep, which is a constant economic impact. so if you're having less big engagements and not constantly losing models,the upkeep may be weighted more than the reinforcement costs as far as total economic impact.

Lets look at a difference scenario, where you have 4 minutes of skirmishing with no losses, and then 1 minute where you engage/lose models/have to reinforce

without endless swarm (over a 5 minute duration): total upkeep is 459
taking 2 model losses from each squad: (16*4) + (15*2) = 94 reinforcement cost - 553 total cost >> 110.6 total cost/minute
taking 4 model losses from each squad: (16*8) + (15*4) = 188 reinforcement cost - 647 total cost >> 129.4 total cost/minute
taking 6 model losses from each squad: (16*12) + (15*6) = 282 reinforcement cost - 741 total cost >> 148.2 total cost/minute

with endless swarm (over a 5 minute duration): total upkeep is 573.75
taking 2 model losses from each squad: (16*2) + (15*1) = 47 reinforcement cost - 620.75 total cost >> 124.15 total cost/minute
taking 4 model losses from each squad: (16*4) + (15*2) = 94 reinforcement cost - 667.75 total cost >> 133.55 total cost/minute
taking 6 model losses from each squad: (16*6) + (15*3) = 141 reinforcement cost - 714.75 total cost >> 142.95 total cost/minute

if you lose 2 models from each squad every 5 minutes, you'll end up saving 13.55 req/minute if you don't get endless swarm
if you lose 4 models from each squad every 5 minutes, you'll end up saving 4.15 req/minute if you don't get endless swarm
if you lose 6 models from each squad every 5 minutes, you'll end up saving 5.25 req/minute if you get endless swarm


So the takeaway from this analysis - in most 2v2's and 3v3's you'll probably be taking enough losses from your gaunts and gants that endless swarm is always worth it. I suppose it is possible that it's a better idea to skip endless swarm in some 1v1's, if you can micro like a god and never drop models from those squads... but if you lose even a moderate amount of models, the economic benefit from 2:1 reinforcement will outweigh the upkeep impact.

[boss]

It does add pop and upkeep now crew trust me you can just check for your self if you want, I don't think you understand what this mean you are lowing your income per min as nid you want to keep getting new squads or upgrades not having to buy an upgrade which then lowers your income for 2 gaunts and 2for1 which don't mean much when you add in ravs lost and warriors this is where is hurts much cos your bad income you can't keep up with these losss.

[Crewfinity]

It does add pop and upkeep now crew trust me you can just check for your self if you want, I don't think you understand what this mean you are lowing your income per min as nid you want to keep getting new squads or upgrades not having to buy an upgrade which then lowers your income for 2 gaunts and 2for1 which don't mean much when you add in ravs lost and warriors this is where is hurts much cos your bad income you can't keep up with these losss.

Did you just completely ignore my last post? Almost all of the time endless swarm is still worth it - the decreased req resulting from the additional upkeep is usually outweighed by the 2:1 reinforcement.

It's essentially the same as the Guardsman Sergeant upgrade. That upgrade gives you 3 additional models @ 2.55 upkeep each, which means that buying the Sergeant adds 7.65 upkeep to your army.... The exact same as endless swarm. Buying squad leaders is a similar investment - you add upkeep to your army in exchange for another model and additional benefits.