2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

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2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Torpid » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 1:16 am

Proposal -
Warrior Brood now has Thorax Swarm (TS) upgrade.
Thorax Swarm costs 75/25 and requires T2 to unlock.

(A bswb can purchase ts, but an agwb can't. A Tswb can't purchase either BS or AG)
Increases health from 990 to 1188 (20% increase)
Increases speed from 5.5 to 6.

Grants dessicator larvae and electroshock grub abilities.
Electroshock grub - Launch electroshock grubs into a vehicle to hamper its circuitry. Inflicts 100 damage, snares target vehicle’s speed and rotation rates by 60% for 10seconds, disables weaponry for 4 seconds, range 24.
Dessicator Larvae - Erupt dessicators in an AoE of 20 around the warrior models that debuff enemy infantry to make them take 20% more damage. Doesn’t affect vehicles. Persists on the ground for 15seconds.

To go with this change:
Zoanthrope Focused Warp Blast damage decreased from 165 to 150.
Zoanthrope Focused Warp Blast cooldown increased from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.

Justification - We needed a way to buff the tyranid AV capabilities slightly, but by mostly adding a snare without making the HM of the race too good. Hence the lack of a super long range snare. You still need to flank and close in to some extent in order to get the snare off. The unit isn't exactly sneaky, but it felt like it did need a mild speed boost to achieve its goal of ever catching things likes razors. 24 range is pretty nice, it's more than the ASM melta range. So it shouldn't be overly difficult to catch someone out of position and snag it with the grub.

On the other hand it should also be fairly easy to focus fire down the squad before it can get in range while backing a vehicle up. It is a melee squad so if it cannot close in due to it having no hp it is effectively worthless and the foe is one squad down so there should definitely be counter play there - you and the nid need to have your wits about you and always be aware of potential flanks on your army. Or of course, retreating that dread out a little earlier than normal because you never know... there might be some Thorax warriors coming at you from the fog of war...

We also wanted to ensure that the HT (who is generally the strongest tyranid hero as well as having the best AV capabilities) wasn't overly powerful post-these changes. And so it seemed like the perfect opportunity to indirectly buff the BSWB! A unit that HTs seldom go for, but RAs/LAs do quite a lot. Now the RA/LA have a better means of transitional AV to compensate for their inferior AV weapons on their hero units themselves compared to the HT.

This new warrior brood type will not be able to solo vehicles itself, hence the power melee. It also will require better usage than say ASM who can just jump on vehicle then throw the melta. The TSWB have less hp than ASM and have no jump, but are quicker and have some utility to them too. You can still use them in a non-vehicle hunting role as they have the best anti-infantry dps out of all warrior brood types. They still provide backlash upon death, so be careful when using them in big battles, as they are not as tanky as AGWB, but still get stuck into melee unlike BSWB. You might want to run them into a big fight just to unleash their dessicator larvae, then run them out to do some side capping. If you merely want them for anti-infantry and front-line melee fighting purposes you would be far better off going for the combination of AG warriors + genestealers. Which would be a lot more potent anti-melee than for example, TSWB + TG. The latter though would fare far better vs an opposing walker play. And the TSWB would be vital for controlling pesky chaos BC spam and tough-to-kill Khorne dreads.

That's the idea anyway. We really wanted to avoid making the zoanthrope central to tyranid AV because it does -everything- and is a really shitty unit to play against.

Because 150 damage on FWB is still a lot in team games where zoans can be spammed much easier we are also considering implementing a unit cap on the zoans of 2. Yes, unit caps are shitty, lazy way to balance, but the problem in this instance is the variation between 1v1 and 3v3. Zoan spam is very easy to deal with in 1v1. Just spam melee and bleed the foes VPs endlessly. In 3v3 however they get allies to go anti-melee for them and the zoans can chill blobbing with an ally and snipe vehicles for days. You nerf them and they are too weak in 1v1. You buff them and they are even more broken in teams. A cap seems the only solution.

That's my thoughts anyway. What about you guys?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Atlas » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 1:22 am

I'll mostly just re-post my own thoughts that I mentioned to you on them. I feel like TSWB is just going to replace AGWB now since as written it's too strong. The radius of the damage buff needs to go to at least 15 and perhaps even implement energy costs on the abilities themselves.

The cap is lazy but fine w/e. I just don't want to add more roles back onto the Zoan. Shifting AV now to WBs is fine. However, I do think that HTs will still benefit a lot from the fact that their warrior callin is also getting a bit cheaper too. Don't discredit that.

Just as a side note, HT is going back to 4.5 speed and talons are getting a slight nerf too.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby HUNTER » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 2:37 am

Unless if this is some long range ability it will be useless. The BSWB lack horrably in range and if the intent is to use them as some AV snare, they will easily get poped before they get remotely close to a vahicle.

As stated above, ASM can jump first and close the range. IG storm troopers can infiltrate. Eldar WS can rele on their target. Other snares are all long range set up teams. I think this is why it was incorporated into the zoan in the first place, and was not really a problem. Also, i think if you wanted to do something, you should incorporate it into the venom brood as an upgrade and give VBrood their synapse automatically maybe since they are a bit underwhealming.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 2:55 am

I like the idea in theory, but it feels like one of those things that could be useless in practice, possibly for the reason Hunter stated.

If you guys made a test patch I'd give it a serious try. I would love to have a new unit to take out vehicles that doesn't require spam.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby boss » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 5:37 am

What oddnerd say is true I do like it but tyranids need a long range snare decrease the damage of zoans by 10 wont do anything you still be force to get them if you want av damage which is not their job it to support your amy by giving them heath regen ant setup team and a snare hence no damage on Focused Warp Blast not to be the av weapon if you want to stop spam then increase the cost of them 60 power they use to be why is it so hard to understand this? they only got 300 heath they can die to anything just do this change this will fix zoans.

Good to see ht get his speed back now maybe he get to level 2 at least :D talons I guess to cost 25 power nerf right? about time I don't no why they went down in elite


Lictor Alpha need most of his war gear to go up in cost and stalk to back in red

Ravener Alpha Hardened Carapace should go up in cost it to cheap, also his hive nod heath should go down to 600 heath also his tunnel making should go up in cooldown abit free gates and all.

Tyranids t3 need to cost less I see no reason to go t3 at all unless you want a Swarmlord, Carnifexs cost more than a leaman russ I faceplam best tank in the game is cheaper than a Carnifexs a default one as well cus default fexs are so good in t3, only the Barbed Strangler fex is worth the cost and that a maybe at best. Decreases default fexs pleas.

Also the Neurothrope cost to much 500 rec and 125 power come on he not what he used to be good old Doom of Malan'tai :D but really he good vs blob and super heavy infantry but not at 500 rec and 125 power he should cost 400 rec and 100 power.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 7:57 am

I like the idea but I'd suggest some hefty beta testing before implementing it. My gut feeling is that 75 power to get a snare on the field is not viable.

This topic is petite so I'll comment on boss's post as well:

I agree with boss that Carnifexes need looking at. Tanks have gradually been buffed and buffed (the speed 7 increase in particular) and Fexes are now a pathetic T3 option in comparison considering their cost. I'm pretty sure a basic Fex would lose out to a Dreadnought in melee yet costs more and is T3. Why not give the basic Fex the venom cannon since it's the worst weapon upgrade for it anyway.

I'm not sure I agree with a price decrease for the Neurothrope but it really needs its shield back so it has some protection from chain knockbacks which are a death sentence right now.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 1:46 pm

While this sounds good in theory, let`s not forget that the key to beating Tyranids is popping those synapse creatures. If we make them even sturdier and thus more difficult to kill we would push Tyranids quite far into the OP direction again. No synapse bombs, no knockback -> OP.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby boss » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 2:22 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:While this sounds good in theory, let`s not forget that the key to beating Tyranids is popping those synapse creatures. If we make them even sturdier and thus more difficult to kill we would push Tyranids quite far into the OP direction again. No synapse bombs, no knockback -> OP.


What Warriors are easy to kill with all races have anti heavy infantry which is often a curse then a good thing come t2 hear plenty of that from sm players.

Hiveminion

Im sure fex win vs t2 dreads other than a Khorne dread least the last time I check it been awhile since I got a fex least I hope a t3 walker can beat a t2 one otherwise im going to cry.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 3:27 pm

Not to mention Warriors have been medium sized for a while now which means you can pretty much one-shot them with missiles and stuff. I find Warriors more of a liability than a boon these days.

Looking at the codex the Dread and the Fex do the same dps, the Fex has 150 hp more but the Dread has melee resistance so I don't think the Fex wins, even under Synapse. Even a Thornback would struggle if it can win at all.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Torpid » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 4:46 pm

hiveminion wrote:Not to mention Warriors have been medium sized for a while now which means you can pretty much one-shot them with missiles and stuff. I find Warriors more of a liability than a boon these days.

Looking at the codex the Dread and the Fex do the same dps, the Fex has 150 hp more but the Dread has melee resistance so I don't think the Fex wins, even under Synapse. Even a Thornback would struggle if it can win at all.


All melee carnifex get melee resist too. A thornback wins quite easily.

And can we please stop making blank comparisons to races like SM most of all?

Firstly, carnifex are much weaker than tanks cost-cost, but that's because in a 1v1 one typically gets a carnifex onto the field before the opponent even STARTS to go T3. That's how the nid eco works. If nids had a tank instead... my goodness. There would be no hope at all to beat them.

Secondly SM are not tyranids. SM need the dreadnought to fend off melee in T2 as they really don't have much else. Tyranids get TGs, horms (highest dps per pop in the game) and genes. All of which are both great counter-initiation and also great for pushing back the opponent on all fronts, holding them off and taking map control whilst you tech. SM have no capabilities in that regard hence why their walker is so strong compared to others.

The venom cannon carnifex is a dedicated AV tank counter. Why would that be the default variant? Would be a massive buff for no reason. The nid eco can certainly afford to pay for the upgrades as it is if it wants to hard counter a tank.

Also, medium size doesn't make missles hit you regularly... that's large size. It provides only a very minor accuracy bonus to you from small arms fire but for the most part is not an important factor. If anything the worst downside of it is you get pathing priority which is actually a pain for your other units that lose responsiveness when around you.

Heavy infantry armour is most assuredly not good for a -frontline- melee unit in T2. TCSM, power melee, plasma guns, weirdboy shots. A lot of things will punish these warriors brutally if they just run in the frontlines. That's why they do need a speed buff and a hp buff compared to default warriors. Otherwise they'd really just get absolutely rekt and never be able to snare anything.

The way they're designed is such that you can counter them if you spot them coming from a flank and move some units there to focus fire them down. Otherwise they're speed little things for a 3-model squad and have more than standard range on their 'melta bomb' and thus can quite easily flank in round the sides of a vehicle WHILST the main nid army does a big forward push. TG, LA, genes, horms run in the front-lines. Ravs burrow to disrupt, terms focus fire heroes. Thorax warriors run in and snare the razorback so venoms can catch it and shoot it down, or even the TG can. Then they run off and use their high power melee dps to chop up the las-cannon set up team with ease.

So yeah, this is still less brainless than just spamming PMs or las-devs. But there is a bigger reward here - you have that nid eco synergy going on. If nids had something like a las-dev (or a zoan which is even harder to kill than a damn las-dev since you cannot knock it over) they would be beyond broken. You'd never ever be able to close in on it due to all their melee plus double toxin sacs. Zoan with FWB snaring was even worse. Giving them such a long range snare on a primarily anti-infantry unit? Crazy.

Oddnerd wrote:I like the idea in theory, but it feels like one of those things that could be useless in practice, possibly for the reason Hunter stated.

If you guys made a test patch I'd give it a serious try. I would love to have a new unit to take out vehicles that doesn't require spam.


Mhmm. It is a lot of work for something that might end up rejected. But of course everything needs testing first.

This thread is to establish if we think it will actually be worth the effort. Or we should just cap zoans at 2 and leave it at that. Or come up with some other novel means of AV.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 5:21 pm

Torpid wrote:All melee carnifex get melee resist too. A thornback wins quite easily.


My bad, I forgot it was TG that didn't get melee resist.

Torpid wrote:Also, medium size doesn't make missles hit you regularly... that's large size. It provides only a very minor accuracy bonus to you from small arms fire but for the most part is not an important factor.


It raises the chance of missile hits from 5% to 20%, so that's a significant threat.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Atlas » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 5:55 pm

Just an fyi to an earlier statement, a TSWB would only be 50 power now? 300/25 + 75/25? BS is not a mandatory upgrade for TS.

It's just kind of interesting to see the nids player seem to be saying not enough, and some non-niddies saying might be OP :P
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby boss » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 6:00 pm

I don't no if your talking from 2.4 tyranids or from retail tyranids torpid no more, the whole of what Hiveminion was trying to make sure Carnifexs must be weaker even Tho they cost more and in pop to than tanks fine but on earth should cost so much then? pls answer this why go t3 then if your t2 is way stronger what the gain from teaching up or just staying t2 for more stuff cos atm their is none other than the Swarmlord.

Also sm weak vs nids maybe the weakest of all the races or slow to start of but they have great tool vs them it just takes time to build which is what sm is all about vs all races also sm cant deal with melee play fc :) only apo has it hard vs nids but then apo need a lot of rework to make him a support hero like he should be. Do I even need to start with other races that has it easy vs tyranids like elder chaos even orks or ig even have it easy these days.

Capping zoans at 2 still wont solve sniping zoans at vehicles cos of the damage is does I now said this for the 40 time or more get rid of the fucking damage focused warp blast for a snare and make in cost more power to stop spam ffs tyranids need a long range snare, zoans cant be kill right 300 heath and need babysitting all time or it worthless in 1s. maybe give the zoan a 2 shot firing mode one mode to snare vehicles and the other to do the damage to infantry but you have to pick which one you want but like I said that need a long range snare and their are other thing nids need sorting.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Atlas » Mon 24 Apr, 2017 9:33 pm

K, was decided to increase the damage and snare duration from the opening back up to standards for the TS variant. Landing a snare is basically a game over for anything with transport-ish hp if you're packing a Venom/Genes/ even 1 Zoan now.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Shroom » Mon 24 Apr, 2017 10:08 pm

TS warriors will have an indicator?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Atlas » Mon 24 Apr, 2017 11:20 pm

Shroom wrote:TS warriors will have an indicator?

Grenade icon over their decorator atm, the other variants are unchanged.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 7:39 am

If Nids get a snare like the one proposed here, will Zoans be purely anti-infantry and will Genestealers have access to Rending Claws in T3 again and their hp reworked again?

I also agree with boss on the issue of Nids becoming the next Chaos. There will be no incentive to ever go T3. I strongly disagree with him on the issue of Zoan survivability. The fact that they can't be knocked over is a HUGE deal when trying to kill them. They don't need constant babysitting at all. Just press X and you are good.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 9:21 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:I also agree with boss on the issue of Nids becoming the next Chaos. There will be no incentive to ever go T3. I strongly disagree with him on the issue of Zoan survivability. The fact that they can't be knocked over is a HUGE deal when trying to kill them. They don't need constant babysitting at all. Just press X and you are good.


That is very oversimplified. You are not always in a situation where simply retreating out is an option. For instance when there are units in the retreat path (or a Lord Comissar *shudders*). Zoanthropes are objectively fragile. However, considering their many perks this is an acceptable tradeoff.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 10:14 am

hiveminion wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:I also agree with boss on the issue of Nids becoming the next Chaos. There will be no incentive to ever go T3. I strongly disagree with him on the issue of Zoan survivability. The fact that they can't be knocked over is a HUGE deal when trying to kill them. They don't need constant babysitting at all. Just press X and you are good.


That is very oversimplified. You are not always in a situation where simply retreating out is an option. For instance when there are units in the retreat path (or a Lord Comissar *shudders*). Zoanthropes are objectively fragile. However, considering their many perks this is an acceptable tradeoff.

I disagree, first off, you would have to ask yourself how melee stuff got behind your back-line unit in the first place and second you can easily just snare it with Crippling Poison and then retreat your Zoan out. Same goes for the Lord Commissar. If you know he can OHKO your Zoan then don't let him get into that range.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby boss » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 10:38 am

I think this is a team game thing more than a 1v1 problem zoans do need looking after you cant send a zoan out it self or it will get force of, it only has 300 heath 500 with the shield it will die very fast only race can struggle kill one is sm all other race have simple ways to kill one.

If zoans didn't fucking 3 shot vehicle like razor back you have to counter to zoans it fucking stupid as fuck they are now the new av unit for Tyranids and if you really think 10 less damage will solve this then my god, they should do no damage in the first place they are a support unit they give you Basic Synapse, Regeneration Synapse, aoe damage and before you went and fuck this up the snare but you have to look after them other wise you lose all of this but now you gave them high burst damage for the trade of the snare so fucking dum they are not av units ffs
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 12:03 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:I disagree, first off, you would have to ask yourself how melee stuff got behind your back-line unit in the first place and second you can easily just snare it with Crippling Poison and then retreat your Zoan out. Same goes for the Lord Commissar. If you know he can OHKO your Zoan then don't let him get into that range.


Do you realise at this point you are describing a situation that will be determined ultimately by relative skill levels and micro-management? That is exactly the point I want to make here. Zoanthropes are undeniably a fragile unit. Keeping them alive requires constant awareness. If your Zoanthropes are never in danger your opponent is doing a bad job or you are instantly retreating them at the first sign of trouble, in which case they can't be very effective.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Psycho » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 4:03 pm

hiveminion wrote:Do you realise at this point you are describing a situation that will be determined ultimately by relative skill levels and micro-management? That is exactly the point I want to make here. Zoanthropes are undeniably a fragile unit. Keeping them alive requires constant awareness. If your Zoanthropes are never in danger your opponent is doing a bad job or you are instantly retreating them at the first sign of trouble, in which case they can't be very effective.

The same logic can be used to say that if your zoanthrope is in danger, you did a bad job of keeping aware of your surroundings and allowed your opponent to exploit whatever opening you gave him. Fact of the matter is that the zoanthrope also has no projectile, instant travel time for the shot, and no setup time, so unlike other units like Pdevs or blastmasters it's can't be dodged as effectively if at all, AND is more mobile by virtue of needing no setup time.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 4:54 pm

Psycho wrote:The same logic can be used to say that if your zoanthrope is in danger, you did a bad job of keeping aware of your surroundings and allowed your opponent to exploit whatever opening you gave him.


Yes.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Atlas » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 5:20 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:If Nids get a snare like the one proposed here, will Zoans be purely anti-infantry and will Genestealers have access to Rending Claws in T3 again and their hp reworked again?


We kept the surrounding army mostly unchanged in terms of AV capabilities. Zoans will be now be hard capped, and with the weaker FWB mentioned. Genes AV are untouched as well. If the TSWB really works out then we'll reconsider supplemental AV. But there's no guarantee, so we left the rest as is for now to ensure that the situation couldn't possibly get worse than where Nid AV is now.

Also, keep in mind that TSWB will still benefit from Towers and all the usual bonuses, so it's not hard to bump them to speed 7 as needed. With that, the leap for a quicker close in and the increased hp, we think it'll be enough to make the snare a threat for vehicles. Also, vehicle pathing isn't a thing so :P
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Torpid » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 5:36 pm

hiveminion wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:I disagree, first off, you would have to ask yourself how melee stuff got behind your back-line unit in the first place and second you can easily just snare it with Crippling Poison and then retreat your Zoan out. Same goes for the Lord Commissar. If you know he can OHKO your Zoan then don't let him get into that range.


Do you realise at this point you are describing a situation that will be determined ultimately by relative skill levels and micro-management? That is exactly the point I want to make here. Zoanthropes are undeniably a fragile unit. Keeping them alive requires constant awareness. If your Zoanthropes are never in danger your opponent is doing a bad job or you are instantly retreating them at the first sign of trouble, in which case they can't be very effective.


The reward to a non-zoan user for having higher skill than his foe and thus very seldom getting into a situation to kill a zoan when they are not IG is far far lower than the reward for a zoan user having somewhat 'meh' skill and thereby never allowing anyone of any skill to get behind his zoan and kill it (except IG).

Basically, the skill cap is different. To stop your zoan from ever dying you don't need to be -that- good. Maybe 7/10? And you will never lose a zoan to even a 10/10 player.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 5:47 pm

Will the Ranged Synapse increase the melta dmg? Or any other synapse for that matter?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby boss » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 6:01 pm

Atlas wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:If Nids get a snare like the one proposed here, will Zoans be purely anti-infantry and will Genestealers have access to Rending Claws in T3 again and their hp reworked again?


We kept the surrounding army mostly unchanged in terms of AV capabilities. Zoans will be now be hard capped, and with the weaker FWB mentioned. Genes AV are untouched as well. If the TSWB really works out then we'll reconsider supplemental AV. But there's no guarantee, so we left the rest as is for now to ensure that the situation couldn't possibly get worse than where Nid AV is now.

Also, keep in mind that TSWB will still benefit from Towers and all the usual bonuses, so it's not hard to bump them to speed 7 as needed. With that, the leap for a quicker close in and the increased hp, we think it'll be enough to make the snare a threat for vehicles. Also, vehicle pathing isn't a thing so :P


so instead of fixing the zoan your going to cap it nids need a long range snare the tswb wont work alone cos now you have to pick which one you want Barbed Strangle, Adrenal Glands or Thorax Swarm upgrade unless your telling me 2 Warrior is a good build
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Indrid » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 6:05 pm

Sounds cool but I don't like vehicle snares that also disable weapons. Genestealers could approach a melee walker with impunity which would be enough for it to die real fast if they are buffed, SM couldn't use Emp Fist either.

I'd rather it hit for a smaller amount of damage, but then cause the target vehicle to take increased damage for a duration and not disable weaponry.
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Torpid
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby Torpid » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 6:36 pm

boss wrote:so instead of fixing the zoan your going to cap it nids need a long range snare the tswb wont work alone cos now you have to pick which one you want Barbed Strangle, Adrenal Glands or Thorax Swarm upgrade unless your telling me 2 Warrior is a good build


2warriors might not be so bad for the HT. Maybe this will encourage some more melee-spam builds from the HT rather than defaulting to abusive zoan spam builds. 1 BSWB in T1, another to be dropped in T2. BSWB goes AG, the fresh on goes TS. Crushing Claw HT, TG, and genes. You are gonna overwhelm your foe with melee very fast! Add in charge and psychic scream, ahhh how disruptive and powerful.

Otherwise, yeah, you need to flank with the TSWB. Again, I suggest 'screening' foes with the TG to control their movement, or perhaps even two of them. Meanwhile you get your TSWB in position to flank, hit with the electro-grub and then retreat, then the two TGs run up and finish off the vehicle.

You may just not want to get the TSWB at all. Maybe rely on the LAs melee snare? HT venom cannon? Ra ranged blob? People have been winning as nids still just using that. Or get a warrior and keep it non-AG to deter vehicles. And only once they are committing into a heavy T2 infantry build go AG.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Will the Ranged Synapse increase the melta dmg? Or any other synapse for that matter?


No. (thank goodness there is one question that is easy enough to answer xD)
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - AV Warrior Brood 'Melta bomb' Upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 6:59 pm

Torpid wrote:The reward to a non-zoan user for having higher skill than his foe and thus very seldom getting into a situation to kill a zoan when they are not IG is far far lower than the reward for a zoan user having somewhat 'meh' skill and thereby never allowing anyone of any skill to get behind his zoan and kill it (except IG).

Basically, the skill cap is different. To stop your zoan from ever dying you don't need to be -that- good. Maybe 7/10? And you will never lose a zoan to even a 10/10 player.


This is just a ridiculous argument you are trying to defend. Purely based on stats there is almost no unit in the game with worse defenses and hit points than a Zoanthrope. There is no way a Zoanthrope is more difficult to wipe than anything else in the game.

You yourself have argued many times that to counter a unit does not mean to kill it. If a Zoanthrope is impossible to kill because it is always in retreat it might as well not have been purchased.

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