2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

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2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Mon 17 Apr, 2017 6:10 pm

Proposal stats - Heavy Gauge Filament ability changed from a %age to knockback into a 20% chance to stun target on hit for 5 seconds.
Heavy Gauge Filament ability changed from a toggled ability to an ability with a duration of 5 seconds.
Heavy Gauge Filament energy cost set to 60.

Proposal Justification - HGDS knockback can mess up with retreating and is RNG. Thereby it is not good for competitive play. It is very annoying to lose a hero for no reason other than HGDS stopped you from being able to retreat no matter how much you spam the retreat button.

Alternative means of doing it - We could remove all RNG and just make it like the current Apo full auto/warboss shoot 'em up which is a flat instant stun for energy cost on a cooldown. A basic active ability.

Topic of discussion - Is such a change preferable? We lose all the flavour and uniqueness of the wargear by doing it. And we've had it for ages. Does it prevent your hero from retreating often enough to warrant making such a large design change right now? Do the numbers proposed make it seem like it would be worth buying the wargear, or would you all pretty much just wait till T2 for the entangling web?

What do you think?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby boss » Mon 17 Apr, 2017 6:41 pm

Yea the stun sound a lot more balance than some stupid knock back chance which sometimes you cant retreat from also the stun will be abit more useful vs immune to knockback hero's and stuff.

I don't no if it should be a chance thing or one hit thing though
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Psycho » Mon 17 Apr, 2017 6:50 pm

Torpid wrote:Alternative means of doing it - We could remove all RNG and just make it like the current Apo full auto/warboss shoot 'em up which is a flat instant stun for energy cost on a cooldown.

Apo's stun is RNG. Sometimes it instastuns, other times it takes well over half the ability's burst assuming it doesn't suddenly decide to target another model if you're targeting a squad, like trying to stun a slugga nob or banshee exarch. Don't know about the warboss. I'd rather have it be a single shot like the techmarine's bolter, if only to remove the RNG for a 100% stun chance while also not stunning several models due to the burst's spread, like how sentinels could be stunned if you targeted a model in front of it.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Black Relic » Mon 17 Apr, 2017 7:06 pm

How about just changing all of those bilities to be on demand suppression (of course suppression after sometime has gone by)? A lot easier to utilize. Maybe even increase the damage as well.

Tbh i would rather the ability turn into timed opposed to toggled. Where the WSE has increased cooldown on his weapon but no reload time during the ability (so there isn't a waste for the ability when its on) and the shot from the WSED do increased damage by a bit. This would allow the easy understanding of a units getting Knocked back and when.

And a timed ability would help against spamming toggling as well as forcing the WSE to focus a bit more on energy conservation.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Mon 17 Apr, 2017 7:12 pm

Black Relic wrote:How about just changing all of those bilities to be on demand suppression (of course suppression after sometime has gone by)? A lot easier to utilize. Maybe even increase the damage as well.

Tbh i would rather the ability turn into timed opposed to toggled. Where the WSE has increased cooldown on his weapon but no reload time during the ability (so there isn't a waste for the ability when its on) and the shot from the WSED do increased damage by a bit. This would allow the easy understanding of a units getting Knocked back and when.

And a timed ability would help against spamming toggling as well as forcing the WSE to focus a bit more on energy conservation.


No suppression, because that is anti-melee and that is not the purpose of any of these wargears. They are meant to be for model sniping and anti-hero. The current stunning mechanic allows you some lee-way with regards to getting utility from the abilities through stunning lead SUT models, etc

Psycho wrote:
Torpid wrote:Alternative means of doing it - We could remove all RNG and just make it like the current Apo full auto/warboss shoot 'em up which is a flat instant stun for energy cost on a cooldown.


Apo's stun is RNG. Sometimes it instastuns, other times it takes well over half the ability's burst assuming it doesn't suddenly decide to target another model if you're targeting a squad, like trying to stun a slugga nob or banshee exarch. Don't know about the warboss. I'd rather have it be a single shot like the techmarine's bolter, if only to remove the RNG for a 100% stun chance while also not stunning several models due to the burst's spread, like how sentinels could be stunned if you targeted a model in front of it.


True that. I intended for it to be like that in the first place tbh, but miscommunication and it being a little harder to implement that way is why it isn't. Might be able to get that changed for you.

What about the topic at hand though Psycho?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Psycho » Mon 17 Apr, 2017 8:36 pm

Torpid wrote:What about the topic at hand though Psycho?


Can't say anything regarding the change's interaction with the rest of the WSE's army, but seeing how the change from the apo's knockback to stun was mostly positive, I'm sure that changing the knockback of the WSE that can turn into permaknockback in practice with enough energy will be as good if not better of a change. Again, if seen from a vacuum.

Balance-wise, it'll trade the effectiveness of knockbacking heroes and models off a cap point, for example, for the ability to deal with heroes with knockback immunity like the CL and HT. Again, same as apo, but if the three heroes get changed to a single-shot 100% stun ability instead of the RNG, it'll also give an immensely more reliable way to deal with SUTs, even if it's just stunning instead of knocking back due to the actual 100% certainty that it'll do what it's asked of. It'll also be an incredible tool to keeping some models like slugga nobs and exarchs stunned while fighting the rest of the squad.

All in all, I'm all for it not just for the WSE but for the Apo and WB too.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Atlas » Mon 24 Apr, 2017 9:25 pm

K WSE stunning on hit is a thing now.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Shroom » Mon 24 Apr, 2017 10:28 pm

Will the stun last after the wse has stopped using the filament ability, or will it only stun while he is using the ability?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Atlas » Mon 24 Apr, 2017 11:23 pm

Shroom wrote:Will the stun last after the wse has stopped using the filament ability, or will it only stun while he is using the ability?


It works as an activated ability more like apo and wb stuns now. Only difference is that he gets a way higher %age to stun due to not having the same # of shots to proc with.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Psycho » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 1:04 am

RNG shenanigans not removed? Beh
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 1:28 am

Psycho wrote:RNG shenanigans not removed? Beh


Can't do it due to unique animations.

Unless you know an animator :P

It will be adjusted though so it is a bit more consistent.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 8:35 am

Having played a lot with the Apos new Bolter I can safely say that it is strong enough even with the RNG element. One way to eliminate this would be to up the damage and shorten the duration accordingly. Then up the chance as well and you basically get the same ability, same damage same stun but it would feel more like a one-shot stun which I strongly oppose.

Now to the topic at hand:
Either the kb needs to go as it should have long ago OR we find a way to somehow fix the issue of a non-retreating model. Maybe we should revisit the code for the internal cooldown between knockbacks because it feels like it is not working as intended.

I don't think that the way the weapon is used would change by much because you primarily use the weapon to deny or cancel the use of abilities or to throw people off a cap or to disable them in a fight. Apart from the cap-denial a stun would basically do the same. What does most definitely change is the way you need to manage your energy. HGDS is currently 10 energy to activate and then 3.5 every second which is a lot less to achieve either of the aforementioned because you usually only need one or two kbs. Assuming you would spend equal amounts of energy, you can either have a 5 second stun or 14 seconds of knockback. Not really a fair trade since you get a LOT more out of the 60 energy if the weapon stays unchanged.

Another problem is that the WSE already has a wargear that does all that but for less energy. 10 energy for a hero that relies on his mobility that much is not trivial. The weapons need to be distinct from one another. I need more incentive to go for HGDS in T1 or I will always wait for T2 and get a weapon that does the same but can be used to disable a whole squad.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Tue 25 Apr, 2017 5:43 pm

It would also be coupled with a price reduction so it costs 90/20

Which seems very cheap for a weapon that also grants the WSE with about 50% extra ranged deeps in T1.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Atlas » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 12:02 am

Torpid wrote:It would also be coupled with a price reduction so it costs 90/20

Which seems very cheap for a weapon that also grants the WSE with about 50% extra ranged deeps in T1.


I mentioned the unusual price to you but you seem to be aware of that. Fwiw, LG GLs are priced the same.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 1:00 am

Atlas wrote:
Torpid wrote:It would also be coupled with a price reduction so it costs 90/20

Which seems very cheap for a weapon that also grants the WSE with about 50% extra ranged deeps in T1.


I mentioned the unusual price to you but you seem to be aware of that. Fwiw, LG GLs are priced the same.


Can the LG teleport around the map?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 1:01 am

Atlas wrote:
Torpid wrote:It would also be coupled with a price reduction so it costs 90/20

Which seems very cheap for a weapon that also grants the WSE with about 50% extra ranged deeps in T1.


I mentioned the unusual price to you but you seem to be aware of that. Fwiw, LG GLs are priced the same.


Well I mean, I worded it as if I was against in that last post haha, but obviously I am not, having proposed it.

It is cheap though, but that is fine as it is in all ways inferior to entangling web other than it being T1. And with the other nerfs we did before to the WSE's energy management. I think it deserves to be a cheaper price and I think it also buffing his dps by 50% (as it has done for as long as I can remember in Elite) justifies its cost being such.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 3:52 pm

That thing should not go down in price at all.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 4:09 pm

Dark Riku wrote:That thing should not go down in price at all.


Having spoke to some WSE players they all said that they would find it very unlikely that they would get it if all it did was give an energy intensive single-entity stun, and a small dps increase for 25 power. That makes sense I thought given how we recently nerfed the WSE to make him a lot more energy intensive as it is, and of course the knockback -is- a lot more valuable than a stun, which relegates the wargear to minor support vs ASM/raptors or such, and anti-hero.

You do not think given all that it would warrant being 20 power instead of 25?
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Psycho » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 5:06 pm

Torpid wrote:WSE players

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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 5:13 pm

Torpid wrote:You do not think given all that it would warrant being 20 power instead of 25?
Most definitely not.
There are also upsides on a stun. Like vs unsupressable commanders to start out with.

Also need to reword it so it doesn't look like it has a chance of doing 50-250dmg :)
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 5:33 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Torpid wrote:You do not think given all that it would warrant being 20 power instead of 25?
Most definitely not.
There are also upsides on a stun. Like vs unsupressable commanders to start out with.

Also need to reword it so it doesn't look like it has a chance of doing 50-250dmg :)

The problem is that this new weapon would compete with the already existing weapon in T2 that disables unsuppressable heroes and entire squads and does the same damage.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 5:55 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:
Dark Riku wrote:
Torpid wrote:You do not think given all that it would warrant being 20 power instead of 25?
Most definitely not.
There are also upsides on a stun. Like vs unsupressable commanders to start out with.

Also need to reword it so it doesn't look like it has a chance of doing 50-250dmg :)

The problem is that this new weapon would compete with the already existing weapon in T2 that disables unsuppressable heroes and entire squads and does the same damage.


One is T1, one is T2, one stops all abilities, the other only charges.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 26 Apr, 2017 11:15 pm

Torpid wrote:It would also be coupled with a price reduction so it costs 90/20

Which seems very cheap for a weapon that also grants the WSE with about 50% extra ranged deeps in T1.



*Mekboy cries in the corner*
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Atlas » Thu 27 Apr, 2017 1:26 am

Torpid wrote:
Dark Riku wrote:That thing should not go down in price at all.


Having spoke to some WSE players they all said that they would find it very unlikely that they would get it if all it did was give an energy intensive single-entity stun, and a small dps increase for 25 power. ...


I'm going to call you out on this one Torpid, because you already admitted before that the HGDS ups the dps by quite a lot. For information, dps jumps from about 20 ish dps to 34 with HGDS.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 27 Apr, 2017 1:49 am

I also think it's slightly absurd to price it at 90/20 when all other commander sidearms that have this ability (apo and warboss) cost 25 power...

especially since the HGDS is already better than the other 2 stat-wise and its on a teleporting hero. who can boost his dps even more with the improved targeters upgrade (giving him a 45 range, 51.13 dps weapon in T1. on a teleporting hero.)

heavy guage death spinner - current cost 100/25, dps 34.09
customized storm bolter - current cost 125/25, dps 32.08
enhanced kustom shoota - 125/25, dps 33.33


if anything, i would argue that the cost of this weapon should be standardized at 125/25, not lowered -___-
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Thu 27 Apr, 2017 5:00 am

Atlas wrote:
Torpid wrote:
Dark Riku wrote:That thing should not go down in price at all.


Having spoke to some WSE players they all said that they would find it very unlikely that they would get it if all it did was give an energy intensive single-entity stun, and a small dps increase for 25 power. ...


I'm going to call you out on this one Torpid, because you already admitted before that the HGDS ups the dps by quite a lot. For information, dps jumps from about 20 ish dps to 34 with HGDS.


A roughly 50% increase, but then it is also a 14dps increase. The former is high, the latter 'small'.

But yeah, any dps increase on a teleporting hero is more influential - hence you have the mekboy as Crew already recollects.

I am perfectly happy with it staying 25 power, but... would people use it? WSE sure has a lot going for it, but if we remove the retreat-killing nonsense from this wargear will people still use it? That determines the price pretty much.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Psycho » Thu 27 Apr, 2017 5:58 am

Torpid wrote:A roughly 50% increase, but then it is also a 14dps increase. The former is high, the latter 'small'.

Misleading. Against models like tacs with big hp pool and armor that reduces the damage you have a point, but against low hp high model squads it's damning. The burst damage jumps from 70 (35*2) to 112 (56*2). It's enough to 1shot tics/GMs/unupgraded sluggas/termas/hormas/unupgraded DAs/etc and make it so that it can kill scouts in two bursts rather than three, since the WSE would need two bursts to deal 140 damage and the scouts would regenerate at least 1hp in the meantime. There are numerous other examples with other low hp units, but the core principle is that it makes the WSE require less bursts to bleed models if not outright oneshooting them. For models with less than 112hp, it'd be effectively nearly HALVING the time needed for the WSE to kill them.

It gets worse with how the engine makes bursts continue to the very end even if the target walks out of range, exemplified with how vehicles can run away from autocannons and yet they'd still be getting shot due to the burst not ending. This in effect can "condemn" a model to die assuming the WSE doesn't interrupt the burst himself. The mekboy's big shoota is an example of this with how it has a 3 second burst, with the upgrade increasing his total burst damage from 82 default to 189, but with a dps increase of "just" around 14. It doesn't see a lot of use because it competes with the deffgun, which turns the mekboy into a teleporting SUT, and also because the big shoota has no ability to go with the WSE's weapon as proper comparison.

The warboss' and apo's weapons cost 25 power. The warboss' differs in that it's a one second burst of 50 damage with .5 cooldown. Closest example is the apo's bolter, with 2 less total burst damage (55*2) and with 1 more second of reload, and the obvious FotM. Other than that, it would have the stun ability the HGDS would be given, but the HGDS would be reduced in price purely because it competes with another weapon, not because of shortcomings of the weapon itself. It's needlessly buffing it even though the core issue here is redundancy, which this isn't going to fix. Hell, from the PoV of the other factions, it's outright bullshit, since the stormbolter and custom shoota are going to stay at 25 power.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Torpid » Thu 27 Apr, 2017 7:26 pm

Psycho wrote:
Torpid wrote:A roughly 50% increase, but then it is also a 14dps increase. The former is high, the latter 'small'.

Misleading. Against models like tacs with big hp pool and armor that reduces the damage you have a point, but against low hp high model squads it's damning. The burst damage jumps from 70 (35*2) to 112 (56*2). It's enough to 1shot tics/GMs/unupgraded sluggas/termas/hormas/unupgraded DAs/etc and make it so that it can kill scouts in two bursts rather than three, since the WSE would need two bursts to deal 140 damage and the scouts would regenerate at least 1hp in the meantime. There are numerous other examples with other low hp units, but the core principle is that it makes the WSE require less bursts to bleed models if not outright oneshooting them. For models with less than 112hp, it'd be effectively nearly HALVING the time needed for the WSE to kill them.

It gets worse with how the engine makes bursts continue to the very end even if the target walks out of range, exemplified with how vehicles can run away from autocannons and yet they'd still be getting shot due to the burst not ending. This in effect can "condemn" a model to die assuming the WSE doesn't interrupt the burst himself. The mekboy's big shoota is an example of this with how it has a 3 second burst, with the upgrade increasing his total burst damage from 82 default to 189, but with a dps increase of "just" around 14. It doesn't see a lot of use because it competes with the deffgun, which turns the mekboy into a teleporting SUT, and also because the big shoota has no ability to go with the WSE's weapon as proper comparison.

The warboss' and apo's weapons cost 25 power. The warboss' differs in that it's a one second burst of 50 damage with .5 cooldown. Closest example is the apo's bolter, with 2 less total burst damage (55*2) and with 1 more second of reload, and the obvious FotM. Other than that, it would have the stun ability the HGDS would be given, but the HGDS would be reduced in price purely because it competes with another weapon, not because of shortcomings of the weapon itself. It's needlessly buffing it even though the core issue here is redundancy, which this isn't going to fix. Hell, from the PoV of the other factions, it's outright bullshit, since the stormbolter and custom shoota are going to stay at 25 power.


You raise very good points. I now agree indubitably that it should stay at its current price.
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Atlas » Thu 27 Apr, 2017 8:45 pm

I'd actually argue it should go up to 120/25 but then again some people think I am a bit of a wse hater :p
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Re: 2.7 Proposal - WSE Filament stun instead of KB

Postby Psycho » Fri 28 Apr, 2017 2:18 am

Nothing wrong with hating eldar things my boy

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