Straight out - Nobs are OP

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Mel_InstaGibson
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Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Mel_InstaGibson » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 2:27 pm

This might not be the most objective post.

Being a long-time SM player i always appreciated their sturdyness in a trade-off for decreased abilities and reduced micro, i never got too good with that. And i absolutely LOVED the new units the elite mod brought in aswell as many many features. But tbh what happened the last patches just took any fun out of the game for me. The SM became papermarines, superunits arent super at all anymore and a endgame SM army cant stand up against many other races anymore (yes, this is also totally related to me being not a pro)

Anyways, thats not the topic so here we go. after watching this video: (fun starts around the 20 minute mark)
https://youtu.be/V2h-OdG5mpc

I decided to go back to vanilla retribution because somehow any unit is made of paper except fucking nobs. Why arent they capped at one or prohibited from levelling up like the oh so great assault termies with their lightning claws which are supposed to be a nob counter? Funny thing is they just got rolled over by them too. Aswell as 2 whole armies with 3 "super"units two times. And dont tell me about fucking counters im not willing to dedicate half of my army to stop a single squad. And there were TWO armies and they got SHIT ON by fucking 2 squads of ONE army. They dont need a "slight" nerf but rather to be toned down ALOT. Fairest thing would be to cap them at one or prohibit them from levelling up. Or allow all superunits to level up. And yes, they are a super unit for me because they are the best unit in the game. And by best i dont mean cost effective i straight out mean that there is no unit that can kill a levelled nob squad on its own in any scenario. Btw when did SM terminators became so pointless.

This is bullshit and yes, im mad, because i enjoyed the heck out of elite but now im just thinking why not go orcs, get warboss, get painboy or weirdboy, get nobs, win ez gg ty.

Best comment "Seems like the balamced nobs carried the game again"
Ild recommend reading the comments on the video anyways.

Sorry for the rant, i regardless appreciate very very much the hard work you put into creating such a great mod.
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Ace of Swords
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 2:37 pm

That is a replay from 2.6.0 where nobs received a straight HP buff that also scaled with levels making them stupidly resistant this has been fixed in 2.6.1

2.6.0
Nob Squad
Member hp increased from 650 to 750.



2.6.1 changes
Nob Leader hp increased from 1050 to 1150.
Nob Squad Member and Nob Leader health increase per level decreased from 1.15x to 1.1x.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 2:44 pm

1 Nob squad isn't game-breaking (and as Ace pointed out the health buff was changed). However it is common in 3v3 for orks to get 2-3 of them. In fact, they almost become a reward for orks who lose their entire army and free up that pop space and income.

Can't do anything about it though, because they are "special".
Last edited by Oddnerd on Wed 15 Mar, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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boss
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 2:51 pm

I always find it odd that seer Council is cap at 1 and yet nobz can get 2 or 3 I said that termies should be able to level but yea orks are not very hard to play just press a and win is why I don't play them no more
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Torpid
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Torpid » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 5:25 pm

boss wrote:I always find it odd that seer Council is cap at 1 and yet nobz can get 2 or 3 I said that termies should be able to level but yea orks are not very hard to play just press a and win is why I don't play them no more


It's true. I find orks disasteful as a whole in T3 tbh.

that's why level 4 shootas are now better than ever before in terms of dps. Specifically at lv4 rather than 1/2/3.

I think capping nobs at 1, gitz at 1 and kommandoes at 2 might not be the worst idea though. It still seems a -good- thing to do to sack them off which is silly.
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hiveminion
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby hiveminion » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 5:49 pm

Torpid wrote:
boss wrote:I always find it odd that seer Council is cap at 1 and yet nobz can get 2 or 3 I said that termies should be able to level but yea orks are not very hard to play just press a and win is why I don't play them no more


It's true. I find orks disasteful as a whole in T3 tbh.

that's why level 4 shootas are now better than ever before in terms of dps. Specifically at lv4 rather than 1/2/3.

I think capping nobs at 1, gitz at 1 and kommandoes at 2 might not be the worst idea though. It still seems a -good- thing to do to sack them off which is silly.


Capping units is in my opinion a capitulation to poor balance design. I think you should try to lift as many as possible rather than introducing more.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 5:56 pm

Nice to see I'm not the only one who dislikes Ork T3 infantry.

I would be happy with just the nob squad cap because I think they are the worst offenders by a long stretch, but I can see how kommandos also are prone to abuse - mainly because a kommando nob counts as ~3 tankbustas, on top of the squads amazing infantry killing abilities.

Gitz at least don't have serious AV capacity, although I can see why SM players hate having their level 4 Tac squad insta-gibbed by a 495 damage volley from two blasta squads.
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Cyris
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Cyris » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 6:01 pm

I happen to think Orks have one of the most interesting and internally balanced T3's. And that Nobz are rather well balanced (after the 2.6 goofs). HI infantry vulnerable to knockback and suppression with absurdly high pricetag after upgrades should tear up in melee. 500/100 + 50/25 + 100/25 + 100/50 = 750/200. 650 health per model is high, but not outrageous.

And yeah, adding unit caps is not a direction I support at all. But I don't play tons of ork.

::shrugs::
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby crog » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 8:54 pm

Just Watch the last replay of Indrid 3v3
Nobs tanking 2 baneblades a ton of other units while killing a lrr on their own...ridicul..
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Torpid
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Torpid » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 9:13 pm

crog wrote:Just Watch the last replay of Indrid 3v3
Nobs tanking 2 baneblades a ton of other units while killing a lrr on their own...ridicul..


Yes... Because that's 3v3 and last patch...

oddnerd wrote:

Cyris wrote:

hiveminion wrote:Capping units is in my opinion a capitulation to poor balance design. I think you should try to lift as many as possible rather than introducing more.


I agree that capping units is on principle poor design. The problem however is that there 3v3 and 1v1 balance are so different. There is -nothing- at all OP about nobs, kommandoes or gitz in 1v1. None. If anything the looted tank splash is OP!!!

In 3v3 it is a -totally- different story. You can get away with suiciding half your army in that game mode since map control is way less important from an overall perspective and an individual player one. And games last longer too since it is more laney and gens are harder to bash.

How do you weaken their prowess in 3v3 yet not make them worse in 1v1? I don't know. Hence the reluctant suggestion to cap them :L
Last edited by Torpid on Wed 15 Mar, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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crog
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby crog » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 11:21 pm

Especially in 1v1 nobs can Tear up your whole Army
Compare them with eldars Seer concil

Nerf their hp at least!
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boss
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 11:40 pm

orks have one of the best t3 in the game and one of the worst t2 I say all about shocked your oppent to get to t3, the cheapish tank with the highish burst damage so high I see this tank suppresses because of how high the burst is, nobz with upgrades and abit of micro and support which you have a lot of can deal with an Amy easily. flash gitz I think are one of the worst units for orks in t3 I think other than range kommandoes are way better full of usefully trick and with decent av to and fairly cheap. gits are very dear and high on upkeep
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Mel_InstaGibson
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Mel_InstaGibson » Thu 16 Mar, 2017 1:04 am

Ace of Swords wrote:That is a replay from 2.6.0 where nobs received a straight HP buff that also scaled with levels making them stupidly resistant this has been fixed in 2.6.1

2.6.0
Nob Squad
Member hp increased from 650 to 750.



2.6.1 changes
Nob Leader hp increased from 1050 to 1150.
Nob Squad Member and Nob Leader health increase per level decreased from 1.15x to 1.1x.


Oh, i was certain this was on the latest version since it was uploaded a few days after, my bad i didnt look in the description.

Regardless, thats even a buff in level 1 and 2 making it yet easier to survive and level up and its not like they have ever been too weak i always found them too strong compared to any other T3 unit. Its atleast not the nerf that would be needed (imo), i sincerely dont understand why any other comparable unit is either capped at 1 or cant level up. Its not like its the only viable choice for orcs in T3
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The Licking Boogyman
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Thu 16 Mar, 2017 6:17 am

Well when i did a private factionwar sm vs orks and the player got 2 nobs on my lane, he pretty much amoved while i needed micro my claw termies,fc with Skill Hammer,shotgun scouts,plasmacannon and liberian. Yh whirlwind would have Been a gud idea but i got double Assault termies and it didnt gave problems afterwards. But still nobs=amove unit.
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boss
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Fri 17 Mar, 2017 6:02 am

nobz are not amove really you can but then their wont do their job however nobz have the best support in the game from the heroes and the race its self painboy,weridboy trukks,waaaagh,banners even konmmans have great support for them with Luv da Dakka and smoke bomb and now add in heroes buff and your ready to go and add more nobz cus why not. compare to other t3 infantry don't match in support and yet stuff like seers get caped and terms are weak really need to give back levelling
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The Licking Boogyman
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Fri 17 Mar, 2017 7:03 am

Yh i actually never knew why seer council was capped at 1.
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Aguxyz
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Aguxyz » Fri 17 Mar, 2017 9:37 am

because seers give ranged dmg reduction around them about 15% which nobz don't, plus seers are not a get in that ass unit like nobz "even though they can be used like that" they're mostly there to support your army
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boss
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Fri 17 Mar, 2017 10:24 am

seer Council a support unit wow I thought kill most infantry in a fight but hey their a support unit ok

because seers give ranged dmg reduction around them about 15% which nobz don't


no instead the whole Amy get waaaagh which not only give damage reduction and other buffs
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby crog » Fri 17 Mar, 2017 1:41 pm

boss wrote:seer Council a support unit wow I thought kill most infantry in a fight but hey their a support unit ok



Seer council are support units srs? LOL
Which unit can eldar support to stand with nobs on toe to toe?

I agree with you , compared with nobs they look like a support unit . A better banshee unit.

And i agree with boss, termies need a leveling boost.
Orbital needs also a buff.

I think most people agree with that.
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boss
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Fri 17 Mar, 2017 3:10 pm

Seer council are the unit to stand up to an nobz unless nobz are fully upgrade seers should win a toe to toe but then nobz have way more support to make them the best unit in the game and yet you can make more than 1 they didn't need buff and tbh seer get caped then nobz should have been ages ago
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Torpid
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Torpid » Fri 17 Mar, 2017 3:12 pm

crog wrote:
boss wrote:seer Council a support unit wow I thought kill most infantry in a fight but hey their a support unit ok



Seer council are support units srs? LOL
Which unit can eldar support to stand with nobs on toe to toe?

I agree with you , compared with nobs they look like a support unit . A better banshee unit.

And i agree with boss, termies need a leveling boost.
Orbital needs also a buff.

I think most people agree with that.


Well you just build a fire prism and suddenly nobs are useless...

They're that OP!

Or you know, those pinning shot dark reapers?

A levelling boost would make ranged terminators WAY too good in teams.

And no, orbital doesn't need a buff. It's a great global. One of the more disruptive and the best for retreat killing. It's practically impossible to dodge unlike eldritch and roks.

So no, we don't all agree there.

On the point of seers they passively do KB and a damn lot of it when leaping into combat, as well as having that ranged DR buffing aura as well as being far faster than nobs or assault terminators. Not to mention of course... Being a different race. Nobs are unique unit that only orks are meant to have. Which is not to say I don't disagree that they are too good in numbers in teams, but just that comparing them to seers as if seers are somehow meant to be as good holistically, is silly.
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 12:58 am

Torpid wrote:Well you just build a fire prism and suddenly nobs are useless...

They're that OP!
Well fire prisms ... :)
Torpid wrote:Or you know, those pinning shot dark reapers?
That are countered by frenzy and so many other things? :p
Torpid wrote:A levelling boost would make ranged terminators WAY too good in teams.
Agree to disagree. Terms are a joke, especially in teams :/
Torpid wrote:And no, orbital doesn't need a buff. It's a great global. One of the more disruptive and the best for retreat killing. It's practically impossible to dodge unlike eldritch and roks.
How the hell do you retreat kill anything with an OB? Models get caught in the outer rings and receive almost no damage. You can't hit them in melee cuz you would be lifted ass well. All you can do is put some ranged fire into them which also wouldn't do anything cuz any smart opponent would be in retreat mode and that's IF they get caught in a beam in the first place.
Torpid wrote:So no, we don't all agree there.
Agree :p
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 2:14 am

I think I posted about this ages ago, but why do nobs get invincibility and suppression immunity in 1 ability? I think invincibility is a stupid thing to have in a game like this, but I can accept it as long as I can still crowd control the invincible unit... just as I am ok with a unit gaining complete crowd control immunity if it can still be damaged. Having immunity to the most readily available and reliable form of crowd control along side invincibility just seems excessive.
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Atlas » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 2:30 am

Yeah, I'm siding with Riku on this one Torpid. "Killy" is not a word I would use to describe OB and there's sentiment towards Termis not pulling their weight. I also would be open to hearing about Seer Council tweaks since they don't seem all THAT powerful to be capped at 1. And this is coming from the Eldar hater on the "balance team".

Turning the discussion on Nobs to a more productive direction, maybe something like making Frenzy a bit cheaper for less potency? What exactly it loses can be talked about.
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 5:00 am

Atlas wrote:Yeah, I'm siding with Riku on this one Torpid. "Killy" is not a word I would use to describe OB and there's sentiment towards Termis not pulling their weight. I also would be open to hearing about Seer Council tweaks since they don't seem all THAT powerful to be capped at 1. And this is coming from the Eldar hater on the "balance team".

Turning the discussion on Nobs to a more productive direction, maybe something like making Frenzy a bit cheaper for less potency? What exactly it loses can be talked about.


seer council don't need to be changed at all for their cost they are power melee beasts that give a ranged damage reduction have good speed and a range attack with leap knock back and unless nobz fully upgrade or lc terms or dread seer would win most fights on toe to toe so no leave them alone ffs if fine that they get caped really problem is nobz they are a super unit with great support not just from heroes but from the race as well and for some reason you can get more than 1 cos reason just fucking cap them it not hard this would not only sort spams but deal with this

Orbital Bombardment killing stuff :lol: maybe if you combo it then maybe
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Atlas » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 6:09 am

I'm not so sure. As mentioned earlier, caps are a lazy way to do things. Just listing what SC can do doesn't explain to me why they are special enough to warrant a squad cap at 1. Are they THAT strong that the game would break if you can have 2 SC squads?
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Aguxyz
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Aguxyz » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 6:15 am

Atlas wrote:I'm not so sure. As mentioned earlier, caps are a lazy way to do things. Just listing what SC can do doesn't explain to me why they are special enough to warrant a squad cap at 1. Are they THAT strong that the game would break if you can have 2 SC squads?

abusing leap into combat is a good reason why.......
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boss
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 6:31 am

Atlas wrote:I'm not so sure. As mentioned earlier, caps are a lazy way to do things. Just listing what SC can do doesn't explain to me why they are special enough to warrant a squad cap at 1. Are they THAT strong that the game would break if you can have 2 SC squads?


I don't no what you would class as strong but when 550 100 power squad can kill most infantry in a fight and only the most elite can stand up to them or have an Amy to deal with them combined with speed and gates I wonder what can go wrong with more then 1 seers that just as bad as what happened when gk terms had Retreat only thing is seer have infantry armor and 15% less range damage but yea I wonder what could go wrong with that
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Dark Riku
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 5:07 pm

The leap into combat and the ranged damage reduction stacking are things to consider for the seer council.

Boss. Use punctuations! Like: . , ! ? And use the enter key.
I have stopped reading your piles of messes because it takes forever to try and get what you are trying to say and even then you can misinterpret them.
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boss
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Re: Straight out - Nobs are OP

Postby boss » Sat 18 Mar, 2017 5:18 pm

fine I wont bother posting then.
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