Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

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Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 5:38 pm

from my experience with terminators they just seem lacklustre just more piercing dps for range ones unless upgrades with heavy melee, for melee power melee or heavy but pay for slow and cant Retreat for reason like 2.4 gk terminators base raping and just press x. would you ever pick terminators over a Predator tank no just no terminators are the best infantry in the game least they should be for their cost.

chaos terminators are the best, Auto cannons and Lightning Claws and the fact that all heroes can get both but still cost so much to get where their better stuff like pred tanks or save for a super unite and the fact that chaos never really goes t3 anyways.

sm terminators are the most costly for and limited as sm range ones have to pick their range weapon get more piercing for Assault Cannon and slowly suppression or flamer for massed infantry but I don't no why you get a flamer tbh or a Cyclone Missile Launcher for arty but still cost a shit to for any and Assault terminators are only for the Force Commander and they are just damage socks unless you have a Librarian then you can be more daring but sill would you get any sm terminators over a Predator tank never

gk terminators I cant they been broken for the last 6 patch

so the point of this fed is that I think they need a buff in my opinion they cant have Retreat cos of that I said above but I think terminators should be able to levelling up but need more exp for each level like I say this in my opinion and this is why im asking you to post and say what you think tell me to get lost this is bad or Its ok but like really when have terminators won you a game over a tank? pls don't hate me to much
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 5:50 pm

Yes terminators are pretty pathetic damage wise for what they cost, iirc pre-nerf ravs did more damage than them in T1, the only ones that are worth the resources are assault terminators/chaos termies with claws/autocannon.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Black Relic » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 8:12 pm

The Health regen buff they got was pretty small tbh. In all honesty it needs to be increased imo.

I made a suggestion to caeltos awhile back to give Ranged Terminators a Chainfist option and all it did was grant them melee resistance. Maybe it overlapped too much with assault terminators and would give them no almost no screen time.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby egewithin » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 8:36 pm

I belive that SM termies are doing quite good damage by default. Stormbolters are amazing vs light infantry and heroes. I sometimes keep them by default for those stormbolters.

Buuuuuuuuuuutttt....

You are right about cost problem. Assaultcannon Termies for example costs 750 / 160 / 350 and I think they are more expensive than a Land Raider Redemer which is 700 / 180 / 0. Yes, Termies are more expensive with their upgrades. And just look at their performance. This is like 1 and half predator cost! Yeah, Termies are unnecceserrily expensive.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 8:57 pm

increases heath regen wont do a whole lot giving range terminators melee resistance idk their range terminators for a reason yet they suck at it

I belive that SM termies are doing quite good damage by default. Stormbolters are amazing vs light infantry and heroes. I sometimes keep them by default for those stormbolters
yea if I want piercing damage I get more tacs not go t3 and spends a shit tons of cost for it. making terminators cheaper why their the best infantry in the game least they should be
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Nurland » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 2:53 pm

Yeah. Terms have fallen off a bit from the 1v1 meta for SM. Missile launcher is amazeballs in team games but haven't tried it out in 1v1 since Pred is the way to go almost always anyway unless you go AT + Lib.

For Chaos Autocannon Terms and sometimes LC Terms are often a viable option instead of a Pred depending a bit on the enemy AV situation. Though a Pred or GUO/LRP is usually the best option.

I haven't done 1s this patch tho so can't say how easy it is to go T3 and afford Terms in 1v1 as Chaos since BL and PM strain the Chaos eco a bit more now.

Not sure how to buff terms tbh. If they need something it is a minor hp regen increase or some minor hp increase per model. Not sure they even need a lot of buffing. Melee resistance for ranged variants is a no-no imo.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 4:03 pm

I don't no the last time I seen or buy sm terminators in a 1v1 they have became non meta. pred and dread are always the way to go mainly cos you force av and can scale well cos leveing up and be more of a pain in the ass. terminators you don't need av just anti shi which all race have easy these days slow and don't scale well at all cos they get their base heath and damage and unless you change weapon they suck at what that got hence that I say that should be able to level up the more that live and kill the better they become but need more exp per level. terminators are a super unit yet thay suck for their cost and don't scale and pred are better anyways cos scaleing with levels

I don't play chaos much in 1s but I never go t3 for chaos Terminators only pred and super units.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 4:24 pm

They are a super unit that barely does enough damage to threat T1 basic infantry, you know, that may be the problem when Plasma GMs,TCSM or any melee squad beats them in efficiency.
Last edited by Ace of Swords on Thu 23 Feb, 2017 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Black Relic » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 4:33 pm

Some people are not getting me i think. I don't mean to just give them melee resistance outright. It would be a wargear purchase instead of a ranged option.

The melee resistance was a means to keep the ranged variants from get steam rolled by t2 and some t1 melee squads. With the resistance (even if it's only like 20%) allows them to stick into combat but they still pretty much have heavy amount of damage that takes the off the field instead of outright killing them, and allowing them to turn around and shoot a bit to do their damage before having to back off and heal.

It would give them a lot more versatility since you can not ever get terminators in any scenario. VS mass range armies, Whirlwind performs better. If you get terminators vs ork or nids you are asking to lose them due to melee (or blastas). Vs chaos you are asking to lose them due to melee from letters and MoT CSM. VS IG terminators they barely fit. IC and inspire terror on terminators. Inquisitor with a manticore, we have seen it before. Lord General with carapace armor, refractor field and Terminators literally can't do anything.

I don't want terminators to do more damage. I want them to stay in combat to do their damage. Because they can't do it well any scenario. The only time they are a good purchase is if you can follow it up with something else.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 4:47 pm

range terminators with melee resistance makes not much sense even a 20% their still suck at base levels and told to get on with it. terminators don't scale aka cant level so when their level 3 gm with Plasmas they get shit on or vs. chaos they just shit over any way you on at them.

and when I say super unit they should be a super unit atm they just crap
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Tex » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 5:06 pm

Last time I checked, plasma tacs or GM's or other efficient shooting squads can't wipe an entire squad(s) of infantry in 3-5 seconds with a 'teleport - surprise - you're dead' combo.

I know this doesn't justify terms being pretty soft in the current meta, but I think its a bit of a stretch to say that terms are getting out shot by those squads. I think terms could get some love, but I also view them as a very unique call in (within the confines of 1v1), that being an "aggressive win the game" call in or a "desperation" call in.

Some ideas that could be used exclusive of one another for making terminators better could be:
-make a new armor type for all terminators and make it more resistant to problematic damage types
-make AV weapons less accurate against them
-reduce costs slightly on red and requisition to improve timings
-improve versatility of upgrades for SM ranged terminators
-improve performance of thunder hammer terminators vs tanks
-improve regeneration for all terminator variants
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 6:27 pm

I guess you mean Cleansing Flame from sm terminators like really when the hell you get these guys in 1s unless it to troll.
soft that's an understatement it not a bad thing they get out shot by their counters their no need to make a new armor for them. less red would be nice av weapons are not much of the problem I don't think hitting them.
-improve performance of thunder hammer terminators vs tanks? this I don't understand what's wrong with them

-improve regeneration for all terminator variants. this is what would fit into allowing all terminators to level along with more heath, damage, melee skill ,regen
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby egewithin » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 6:46 pm

I think giving straight up combat buffs like health regen / damage / resistance may cause more problems than they have now. Just imagine forum topics after next patch.

I think everyone cana agree on a cost reduction. Terminators are not bad, they are just not worth for their prize. Upgraded Termies are as expensive as a LRR. I know that comparing Termies with a tank might be wrong but you have to see the elephant in the room. Same prize as a LRR, with a far worse performance. Or forget about LRR; imagine Seer Council, Nobz, Kommandoz and stuff. You will see the difference.

I think the easyest compare is Nobz vs Assault Termies. Nobs costs 750 / 200 / 0, Assault Terminators costs 720 / 170 / 350. You do realize that they have nearly same prize, even A.T. may cost more because of red. And look at their performance...

Nobz can wreck ANYTHING in game, run after anything, can stand against a whole army (even multiple armys) and can just retreat out without a trobule.

In the other hand, you can't even charge with these fat marines. They can't run into combat since you have to save teleport for their survival, they shouldn't tank ranged damage since they are very fragile, you have to wait 6 minutes to buy another one for some reasons unknowen, do I have to talk about more?
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Torpid » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 9:05 pm

I personally find in 1v1 that often an attempt to use terminators is shut down by an abundance of AV weapons. Since you cannot retreat them out getting hit for hundreds by constant lascannon shots every engagement quickly adds up and leads to model snipes.

I would like them to be medium size targets not large so AV wasn't so ridiculously strong against them. Also it would make them about 9% more resistant to small arms fire too.

I'm not really convinced they need to be cheaper. A comparison to nobs is highly inappropriate, nobs are 'special'. Look at seer council. Terminators do mostly the same work as them and cost similar. The red cost is the only prohibitive thing, oh and the crazy cooldown. But I think they are important to keep for 3v3 balance. Rocket ranged termy spam in 3v3 is a pain in the ass, even if impossible to do in 1v1.

So, make them medium size. Give a little more hp regen all the time (perhaps 3 instead of 2) and finally, what about making them speed 4.5 instead of speed 4?

Their shit speed is after all the main reason they end up getting rekt if the rest of the army retreats. Also it hurts the melee variants loads since they can't catch anything never-mind a tank.

I think hammer-nators are the worst variant though. Perhaps they could have increased base hp and/or a snare on vehicles when struck. Would help them as tank hunters which would be cool, or just as damage tanks themselves =D

Thoughts?
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Atlas » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 9:56 pm

What about just lowering the SM/Chaos Terms Teleport cooldown a touch?
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Cyris » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 10:14 pm

I like more regen best. They are indeed hard to justify in 1v1, with a few exceptions. Tex's comment on the teleporting flamers is one, they absolutely demolish some compositions.

Not a fan of size change. Being hit by AV weapons is fine in my book.

I don't like more speed on ranged termies, but I agree the ass-hammers could use some love.

Teleport CD sounds reasonable too, but it just doesn't evoke what I want them to play like.

Good thread!
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 10:18 pm

Re-introduce leveling on a trial basis. If they get too crazy, play with their scaling (as is being done for nobs currently), or remove the levels and try other options. Experimentation is the key and is what we are lacking with patches that have > 6 month intervals between them. No offense meant there, just suggesting for smaller iterations (see Agile methodology) with hotfixes when possible.


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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 23 Feb, 2017 10:21 pm

Melee termies are already fine, they receive enough support from Kworship/sorc/libby etc to do what they need to do, hammernators are still pretty good taking out other super units, only the ranged ones need to be more relevant.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Black Relic » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 5:32 am

If Assault Terminators ever got a change it would be their charge being to a short ranged teleport.

Range Terminators...maybe just add courage damage to the storm bolters?? I don't think that has been thrown out there. After they shoot at a target for idk maybe 6 to 7 seconds they get suppressed. Would make the assault cannon beastly. Would really change much on the flamers but the missile launcher would just add a bit of AV along with soft suppression and AI. That sounds pretty...super. For a super unit...
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 7:57 am

don't try to compare nobz vs terminators egewithin nobz are a super unit, ever have a level 4 nobz with painboy help in a 1v1 that the dream for orks players and tbh I think nobz just be capped at 1 unit.

I don't think av weapon hitting terminators is a big deal, giving them more speed I don't want them to run I want them to fight better also if they have 4.5 speed then the slowest thing would be the Brother-Captain should have his old 4.5 speed back and soon Hive Tyrant noooooooooooooooo :( :( :(

Having less Teleport cooldown more heath, regen, more damage, more melee skill would fit as I said into allowing terms to level up
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Aguxyz » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 9:47 am

nobz are not a super unit............
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby egewithin » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 10:09 am

Aguxyz wrote:nobz are not a super unit............


I agree. A unit that you can buy for 3 or 4 times is not really a super unit IMO. :D
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 10:15 am

Aguxyz wrote:nobz are not a super unit............


yes they are the one of the best melee infantry in the game which can level, get supported from heros, subcommders and can solo an Amy by them self's I call them a super unit
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Tex » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 4:09 pm

lol...

Standard issue counter to nobs is to right click on the build icon of your Race's suppression team.

Also, whoever was saying that nobs don't cost red is crazy. Nobs will cost you 75 (or whatever the cost of frenzy is now, + waagh sometimes too) red minimum every single engagement. That's the way they work. Huge output, huge cost.

Just a recap on some of the themes coming out in discussion here:

Some ideas that could be used exclusive of one another for making terminators better could be:
-make a new armor type for all terminators and make it more resistant to problematic damage types
-make AV weapons less accurate against them
-reduce costs slightly on red and requisition to improve timings
-improve versatility of upgrades for SM ranged terminators
-improve performance of thunder hammer terminators vs tanks
-improve regeneration for all terminator variants


So just from reading comments, I think in terms of some of the suggestions made (and I might have missed some other peoples suggestions) it appears that making terminators faster, less vulnerable to AV fire, or more capable in overall combat are the popular suggested solutions. A flat cost decrease seems like taking the easy way of fixing this issue, but it would be simple and as previously stated, would help to improve timings.
I also think we can all agree to a higher regeneration rate on such a large HP pool.

From here I think it comes down to a few questions:
Is it only ranged SM terminators that struggle?
Is it only 1v1 where terminators struggle?
Is there ever a match up where terminators are more appealing than a battle tank, or are terminators completely situational?

If we can answer these questions, I think it should be a fairly simple matter of correcting this problem.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Ace of Swords » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 4:43 pm

Tex wrote:lol...
Standard issue counter to nobs is to right click on the build icon of your Race's suppression team.

Suppression does nothing to the warboss whom should be weak to it, let alone the other 2 commanders with built-in anti setup teams mechanics.

Is it only ranged SM terminators that struggle?


It's all bolter terminators, the rest of the weapons are fine
Is it only 1v1 where terminators struggle?
Is there ever a match up where terminators are more appealing than a battle tank, or are terminators completely situational?


In 1v1 they are inexistant, too much anti HI/SHI has been added and on top of that what counters tanks counters terminators pretty well (beamy loota, venom carnie/venom brood/tank bustas are actually very good against them and on top of that any melee will wreck them easily maybe it be power or heavy.), in team games like in 1v1 the only reason to get them is when you have an army almost at popcap with tanks and upgrades rolled out and you complement it with termies, unlikes dreds,preds,asm,lrr or hero upgrades despite their pop cap,upkeep,red,req and power cost are unable to train their weight.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby boss » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 4:48 pm

next patch nobs wont cost so much in red or rec and power and if your really think just count on your Race's suppression team counter nobs your stupid you need at least 3 or 4 setup teams to stop nobz from walking into you that's that like what half your Amy in one spot to stop 1 unit good luck in map control and dealing with the rest of the ork amy to also get a truck suppression team useless . also all of the ork commder can deal with setup team easily. I find it funny that you can get more then 1 nobz yet Seer Council you can only get 1 I no you not to compare units but yet I find this funny


From here I think it comes down to a few questions:
Is it only ranged SM terminators that struggle? no all can struggle but some are okish but all can do a lot better tbh
Is it only 1v1 where terminators struggle? no teams game they die very easily way more firepower but I don't care about team games
Is there ever a match up where terminators are more appealing than a battle tank, or are terminators completely situational? never, I gong go t3 for tanks preds are just better more firepower and scale in levels so thay can do better and have more heath to deal with
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 5:47 pm

I can get behind capping nobz at 1. Either that or don't let them get invincibility and suppression immunity at the same time, make it one or the other.
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Aguxyz » Fri 24 Feb, 2017 9:42 pm

you have plenty of ways to counter nobz if they're getting in your army you're doing something wrong
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Broodwich » Sat 25 Feb, 2017 12:50 am

Aguxyz wrote:you have plenty of ways to counter nobz if they're getting in your army you're doing something wrong

You can say the same for terminators
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Re: Terminators for sm and chaos from a 1v1 view

Postby Aguxyz » Sat 25 Feb, 2017 7:47 am

Broodwich wrote:
Aguxyz wrote:you have plenty of ways to counter nobz if they're getting in your army you're doing something wrong

You can say the same for terminators

True, but usually a good SM player would have a libby to gate them away from any danger they have come into, the same can be said for orks but theirs comes in much harder way to save them
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