A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Tex
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A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Tex » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 2:08 pm

Hey guys,

Just a small note from my memory bank here (and yes I know this request is small in importance compared to the very necessary changes that are already coming down the pipeline):

If it is possible, can we remove the chance system in regards to which special attack that the warboss will use when he has a weapon upgrade please? I know that when I buy a weapon on the warboss I am primarily looking to increase damage output. His stomp special is nice with 360 knockback, but his recovery from the 360 special is slow, and his sweep special on the hammer and on the claw do WAY MORE damage. Because the warboss already has a 360 stomp on command, I would much rather know that the special he is going to pop after buying a weapon upgrade is going to be the high damage sweep and not just another weak stomp.

Also, I'm wondering if its possible to tie in the bang bang effect to special attacks as well. That hammer is already incredibly difficult to fit into competitive builds and using it successfully means you need to proc the buff ASAP. Having a hit not proc the buff with the hammer is incredibly disheartening and can even cause you to lose the fight if your damage is centered on it.
The other way to potentially fix this would be to remove the special attacks from the bang bang hammer completely. It wouldn't hurt the warboss because he still has stomp, however I don't think this is the most desired way to accomplish this.
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boss
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby boss » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 4:27 pm

I don't see why the wb need more buffs he quite brained atm
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Atlas

Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Atlas » Mon 23 Jan, 2017 6:37 pm

Oh wow. I'm used to people just leaving me steam messages telling me what they want like I'm Santa Claus. I could get used to this format.

As for the suggestion itself, idk. Doing this would create a precedent that could basically be applied to any unit with multiple special attacks. I don't think it's a terrible idea but idk. Thoughts from other people?
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Crewfinity
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 2:53 am

dont really think it needs changing :)
look upon the majesty that is the warboss special, and cower!!!

@14:00

https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/26555580
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Oddnerd
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 3:35 pm

From my limited experience with the WB I definitely agree with Tex's proposal. I buy the BBH with the intention of charging up that buff and trying to pick off as many models as possible with that whopping 150 dmg per hit. Having 2 specials not only makes the RNG-based special attack system even more unpredictable than normal, but it also impedes your ability to get the damage output and buff stacking that people typically buy the hammer for.

I thought everyone hated RNG because of how unpredictable and uncontrollable it is - I know that melee specials aren't going anywhere, but WB players shouldn't have to deal with a 2nd inferior special (that they can already activate at will through the WB stomp ability) getting in the way of the damage output and buff stacking that they want.
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Ace of Swords
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 4:10 pm

The fully kitted WB can solo armies and is especially hard to deal with a chaos, bang bang makes the use of any melee or melee build useless vs orks due to the insane buff it gives and how fast it stacks and scales extremely well because it makes the use of T3 melee or slow units (SC,termies,other nobs etc) redundant , with the bang bang he also has high chances of easily wiping devs/havoks (it's supposed counters) due to basically 1-shotting the models each swing.

So if he gets even more braindead the hammer needs a massive nerf in damage and as far as the RNG aspect goes it's either the rework blessed spartan and I proposed years ago for ALL units or nothing.
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boss
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby boss » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 4:28 pm

it fine as it is leave it alone their more broken stuff in the game than this that need sorting
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Tex
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Tex » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 6:22 pm

Okay so some opinions have come to bear, that is a good thing.

I think it is important to note that I don't think this change would be a net buff if you isolate just the special attack situation. A 360 special is the best kind of special. I don't think this can really be argued?? I am asking for it to be removed so that it further focuses the bang bang hammer on damage output. This just flat out makes sense, especially for a wargear that really struggles to widen it's niche. Disruption is much better handled by his other wargears. You could probably take a look at other hero's that have multiple specials on the same weapon (is it only the brother captain and chaos lord who deal with this as well?) and make an argument for which special attack should be retained.

The net buff in what I'm suggesting is that the bang bang buff would trigger even for a special attack from the warboss. That's it.

Now, @boss, I know there are much more important things to fix and I have acknowledged that, and guess what, most of them are fixed for next patch afaik. Is it so bad that I suggest a little bit of optimization?

And @Aceofswords, I don't really see your argument as valid here:

First, you start off with a "fully kitted" warboss. I am talking about the bang bang hammer here. If you have a problem that angry bitz is way too good for cost then perhaps you should push (as I have been) to have boss pole be made his 20 power accessory and angry bitz be made into his 25 power accessory. As well, both of the warboss t1 armors seem to be competitive and rather fine in the current patch so I just really don't know what you are getting on about that "A FULLY KITTED OUT TANK STYLE HERO CAN SOLO ENTIRE ARMIES WHEN HE SPENDS ~375 REQ AND ~75 POWER TO KIT HIMSELF OUT IN T1"... please... that's just so not true and you know it Ace.

Second, its not the bang bang hammer that makes melee "useless" against the warboss, but rather it is his inherent attributes that make melee LESS EFFECTIVE against him. Of all the things that the warboss can do to counter melee, bang bang hammer is actually the 3rd from lowest thing on that list, better only than the boss pole and 'eavy armor.
How much warboss have you been playing lately again??...

Third and lastly, I'm not really seeing a massive need for some RNG rework. I don't know what you proposed exactly, but as far as heroes and special attacks go, I can only think off the top of my head three heroes that struggle from the issue of an unpredictable special attack. Perhaps you can enlighten me here but I'm just not seeing it.
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Crewfinity
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 8:01 pm

Tex wrote:
Third and lastly, I'm not really seeing a massive need for some RNG rework. I don't know what you proposed exactly, but as far as heroes and special attacks go, I can only think off the top of my head three heroes that struggle from the issue of an unpredictable special attack. Perhaps you can enlighten me here but I'm just not seeing it.



If we do make this change it would probably be good to take a look at the chaos lord, and make sure that the daemonic visage debuff procs when he gets a special attack as well.
Atlas

Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Atlas » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 9:01 pm

Crewfinity wrote:If we do make this change it would probably be good to take a look at the chaos lord, and make sure that the daemonic visage debuff procs when he gets a special attack as well.

That's a really strange tangent to this discussion, but ok.

Tex, there's a lot to consider on special attack properties. While a 360 arc is desirable, it doesn't just make it flat out better in comparison.

My ultimate question to you is: What is the problem with the Bang Bang Hammer as a wargear that warrants this change?

If you isolate the BBH issue here as being due to having multiple special attacks as you have written, be aware that this is not the only unit that possesses multiple special attacks. Why are you not arguing for these other cases (CL/BrC/I think some Dreads off the top of my head etc etc) in addition to the BBH? What makes this case so special otherwise?

One last note is in some quotes of your own:
Tex wrote:His stomp special is nice with 360 knockback, but his recovery from the 360 special is slow, and his sweep special on the hammer and on the claw do WAY MORE damage. Because the warboss already has a 360 stomp on command, I would much rather know that the special he is going to pop after buying a weapon upgrade is going to be the high damage sweep and not just another weak stomp.
Tex wrote:I think it is important to note that I don't think this change would be a net buff if you isolate just the special attack situation. A 360 special is the best kind of special. I don't think this can really be argued??

I'm confused at this point. Do you feel that this special change would ultimately benefit or detract from the wargear? If you simultaneously believe that 360 specials are just better specials whereas also believing that the BBH is hard to use competitively, why not argue to remove the front arc special instead?
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Forestradio
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Forestradio » Tue 24 Jan, 2017 9:12 pm

Atlas wrote:why not argue to remove the front arc special instead?
because the front arc special does triple the damage?
or in the case of the klaw does quadruple the damage?
boss wrote:it fine as it is leave it alone their more broken stuff in the game than this that need sorting
this sums up everything that needs to be said
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boss
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby boss » Wed 25 Jan, 2017 2:43 am

tex let me get this right cos you cant fit the hammer into your builds it needs to be change if this is true then my god i don't even no what to say
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Torpid
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Torpid » Wed 25 Jan, 2017 11:26 am

a 360 special is only objectively better than a non-360 one if it does the same amount of damage, which obviously the jumping special doesn't.

Making bang bang hammer do the high damage special all the time and no jumping ones and/or making it grant its buff on a special? Both pretty gigantic buffs in the current state.

Also, bang bang hammer is far more effective vs melee than angry bitz or cybork. It makes actual melee builds totally impossible because you simply cannot out-melee the ork and going as nids vs it is... ugh.

I mean the wargear clearly doesn't need a buff. It is niche yeah, but really damn good at what it does and I don't see why it needs to be any less niche when it is a melee force multiplier on an already scary tanky melee hero on the race with the best melee in the game.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Tex
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Tex » Wed 25 Jan, 2017 12:44 pm

@Atlas, what makes this case special is that the bang bang hammer has a very small niche. I think you have a good point though in that it could very easily be argued that other units that suffer from this issue should have the scope of their special attacks narrowed down.
The window of opportunity to purchase the bang bang hammer is actually very small. In fact, as soon as you hit the T2 button, buying it will limit your options both in available AV and in power available for tech.

@Boss, I'm not sure if I said I couldn't specifically fit the bang bang hammer into my builds, because I do use it, but at this point I am pretty sure that it has a very small niche.

@Toprid, I still stand by a 360 knockback special being superior man. If you view this as a gigantic buff, then perhaps the damage on the sweep special could be lowered to compensate? I'm also unsure how you think that the bang bang hammer does more vs melee than angry bitz or cybork. That's just crazy talk! The bang bang hammer needs to get in hits before it does anything. Angry bitz gives knockback and helps close or open distances. Cybork is a crazy CC ability that can put the brakes on even genestealers and lit claw termies.
Simply controlling the warboss before fighting would probably go a long way towards eliminating the effect that the bang bang hammer would have on a fight. (crippling poison, awd, etc)

My suggestion was to make the bang bang hammer more attractive by streamlining its use. I guess a lot of people think that it is already very easily used then.
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boss
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby boss » Wed 25 Jan, 2017 1:25 pm

I don't see why the hammer is a niche wargear at all you get a highest dps melee weapon in t1 only the ht can match but then you already have angry bits which buff that damage so then you got the highest dps which has 2 special 360 but less damage and a 180 but very high damage which both are fine and also can buff the damage and speed of all the infantry around him per hit and with waaaagh and wagggggh banners and with waaaagh path it quite mad the buffs you get only the warboss can do this but yet it niche right
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Dark Riku
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 25 Jan, 2017 4:19 pm

No change is needed here.

And I'd like to say in general: Don't change little things that are definitely not necessary. You're only risking breaking the game.
Example: shee pistols.
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Forestradio
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Re: A small improvement suggestion for next patch

Postby Forestradio » Wed 25 Jan, 2017 4:59 pm

Dark Riku wrote:No change is needed here.

And I'd like to say in general: Don't change little things that are definitely not necessary. You're only risking breaking the game.
Example: shee pistols, ist sarge, ist grenade launchers, brother captain, plasma cannon dread, catachan shotgun blast, touch of nurgle, and a million other things that would take an eternity to list out here, only some of which have been resolved
fixed

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