Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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_4ut_
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Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby _4ut_ » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 7:35 am

Wy Vanguard need be better in your opinion? And way much better now. Since 2.6.
Look like insane.
Yap one have jump parks and over cost red. I know. Here I'm about melee stats.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Atlas » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 8:54 am

Vans have always been in a sort of weird situation in that it's a very late sidegrade to an already pretty useful unit. You give up both the melta and any experience you have on your ASM in order to get them quite late in the game. Naturally, most decided to just keep ASM as is. The hp buff that has been added in 2.6 is intended to make them more relevant in builds. Something to make them really worth considering.

As for the Chosens, general consensus has held that CPMs have been overly powerful for several patches now. Their ability to shrug off absurd amounts of damage combined with their ability to easily take on walkers put them over the top, The nerfs they received are intended to bring them back in line performance wise to their cost and ease of use.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Torpid » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 10:37 am

One would hope vanguard are better given that ASM+the vanguard upgrade costs way more than CPM ever did minus the red as well, of course, being t3 and thereby coming out far later.

Considering the costs and timings CPM are obviously far better counter-initiation, and do much much better vs high model melee squads which they punish severely with their zombie breathe of doooom.

Vanguards are an elite melee unit that can also jump. Very powerful, but that's why they are T3. Vanguard+a predator is a brutal combination that added on to a heavy SM T2 can beat nearly anything in 1v1. 'Course, as an opponent you shouldn't let an SM get to T3 so easily nevermind be able to get out two fresh T3 units, but that's the purpose they serve.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby _4ut_ » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 10:40 am

Atlas wrote:Vans have always been in a sort of weird situation in that it's a very late sidegrade to an already pretty useful unit. You give up both the melta and any experience you have on your ASM in order to get them quite late in the game. Naturally, most decided to just keep ASM as is. The hp buff that has been added in 2.6 is intended to make them more relevant in builds. Something to make them really worth considering.

As for the Chosens, general consensus has held that CPMs have been overly powerful for several patches now. Their ability to shrug off absurd amounts of damage combined with their ability to easily take on walkers put them over the top, The nerfs they received are intended to bring them back in line performance wise to their cost and ease of use.

But luks like you overpowerd one and overnerft two.
CPM was a god contr option about ASM, and now wey so wek and so expensive, what i don't understand why bay them.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby _4ut_ » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 10:43 am

Torpid wrote:vs high model melee squads

And whereby they have to kill them? CPM damedg potencial in 2.6 puting in deep deep hole/
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 10:52 am

_4ut_ wrote:But luks like you overpowerd one and overnerft two.
CPM was a god contr option about ASM, and now wey so wek and so expensive, what i don't understand why bay them.


ASM will still not win against CPMs in direct combat. It is as Atlas said, CPMs had to be brought in line. Just because they got nerfed doesn't mean they are bad now. It simply means that they are MORE balanced now. Before CPMs could basically walk up to armies and not lose a single model. And with their sick regen and huge health pool could force off entire blobs. Also, Nids had absolutely no tools to deal with them. Now they have at least become more managable.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Torpid » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 11:01 am

_4ut_ wrote:
Torpid wrote:vs high model melee squads

And whereby they have to kill them? CPM damedg potencial in 2.6 puting in deep deep hole/


Their damage didn't really decrease by much. Yes they got a dps nerf per model - but they also got one extra model remember. So the squad dps is not any lower.

They lost the heavy melee DoT so they are considerable less effective vs walkers and heroes, but that's fine they were nuts vs heroes before and there is no reason they should be any AV threat.

They still dominate ASM in 1v1 combat, as they do pretty much every T2 melee squad actually, even bloodletters since their breathe cancels the regen they get from being worshipped ;)

But yeah, they still do the counter initiation role perfectly well. Just their ability to a-move forward alongside ranged plague marines and beat everything has been seriously diminished. They still are tanky vs ranged blobs, but not a counter. Which before they basically were, especially vs SM which are a race that severely lack lots of high dps piercing ranged damage options.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby _4ut_ » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 11:05 am

Torpid wrote:
_4ut_ wrote:
Torpid wrote:vs high model melee squads

And whereby they have to kill them? CPM damedg potencial in 2.6 puting in deep deep hole/


Their damage didn't really decrease by much. Yes they got a dps nerf per model - but they also got one extra model remember. So the squad dps is not any lower.

Oh really, my mistake.

Torpid wrote:and there is no reason they should be any AV threat.

And why VV can get wey power fist? Maby shold put Dot heavy malee on upgrade instead of throwing it in the trash?
Last edited by _4ut_ on Fri 23 Dec, 2016 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Torpid » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 11:07 am

_4ut_ wrote:
Torpid wrote:Their damage didn't really decrease by much. Yes they got a dps nerf per model - but they also got one extra model remember. So the squad dps is not any lower.

Oh really, my mistake.


Yup. Which also should explain to you why their explosion's damage and healing effects were nerfed - if there are more models there is will be more explosions so I nerfed them by the appropriate amount to fit the fact that there would be at least 33% more explosions.

I'll forgive you for not noticing since they are not a common unit and the patch was.... massive ;)
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 11:12 am

IIRC, the main problem with CPM was their heavy melee DOT. They are supposed to be tanky, because a) They don't have melee charge, b) They are slow c) They are supposed to be a damage sponge and d) PC have no real ways to make them reach their target quickly, compared with other Chaos commanders.

I agree with the change of heavy_melee to power_melee DOT and their cost increase. Their CD increase it's a bit too much (are now CPM Terminators? XD) but I can live with it. But the rest seems unnecessary to me, and not a correct way to balance something.

On the other hand, VV are a total different theme. Sadly, don't have enough experience with them. But the HP buff IMHO seems mostly reasonable.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby _4ut_ » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 11:26 am

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:heavy_melee to power_melee DOT

Wou wou wou, stop.
They write:
>Knife DoT damage type changed from heavy_melee_pvp to melee_pvp.

melee_pvp that is a problem. Yes, so it might be, if there was an upgrade to heavy melee.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 1:01 pm

_4ut_ wrote:
Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:heavy_melee to power_melee DOT

Wou wou wou, stop.
They write:
>Knife DoT damage type changed from heavy_melee_pvp to melee_pvp.

melee_pvp that is a problem. Yes, so it might be, if there was an upgrade to heavy melee.

Lol, I thought I read Power_melee. My bad.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Torpid » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 4:14 pm

_4ut_ wrote:
Torpid wrote:and there is no reason they should be any AV threat.

And why VVS can get wey power fist? Maby shold put Dot heavy malee on upgrade instead of throwing it in the trash?


I was speaking about chosen plague marines - they are not meant to do any heavy melee.

I don't like the heavy melee damage of time feature. I'd be happy to let it go to the trash. I don't see why it was appropriate in the first place.

Vanguards are a different unit. They become very very expensive with the power fist and even then are rather mediocre AV not even being as good as raptors due to the lack of a melta pistol. I think it fine for them to have that option if they want it. It fits well with the versatility of SM.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby _4ut_ » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 4:32 pm

Torpid wrote:
_4ut_ wrote:
Torpid wrote:and there is no reason they should be any AV threat.

Vanguards are a different unit. They become very very expensive with the power fist and even then are rather mediocre AV not even being as good as raptors due to the lack of a melta pistol. I think it fine for them to have that option if they want it. It fits well with the versatility of SM.

But its not answer wy wey haw fist, and CPM cant hawe upgred to hw melee. And i fing wats melee heavy One of the key points of the game and drop it in trash for the reason that someone can not get away from one of the slowest unit in the game is not the answer.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Ace of Swords » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 4:36 pm

_4ut_ wrote:
Torpid wrote:
_4ut_ wrote:

Vanguards are a different unit. They become very very expensive with the power fist and even then are rather mediocre AV not even being as good as raptors due to the lack of a melta pistol. I think it fine for them to have that option if they want it. It fits well with the versatility of SM.

But its not answer wy wey haw fist, and CPM cant hawe upgred to hw melee. And i fing wats melee heavy One of the key points of the game and drop it in trash for the reason that someone can not get away from one of the slowest unit in the game is not the answer.


Because CPM aren't meant to counter vehicles, ASM do have melta bombs and lose them on top of losing levels for a worthless T3 squad that's only good if you are still level 1.

Did you seriously need to ask that? On top of the fact that the PF is inferior when compared to the melta bomb in every case and SM as a faction need to combine different sources of AV in order to effectively counter vehicles unlike chaos that can field insta firing lascannons, the best AV walker in the game and PMs which have are a super durable squad with a slow tied to their missile launcher.
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Re: Vanguard Veteran vs Chosen Plague Marines

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 25 Dec, 2016 11:00 pm

You want to compare units in this way?

--> Why do raptors have a power first on their sarge and the ASM sarge only has a power sword?
--> Baff ASM sarge to power fist.

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