Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
crog
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Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby crog » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 9:05 pm

In my opinion the singing speer(SS)weapon isn't as often used as it should be due to the fact that the cheaper doombringer with little support is a far better av than the speer.

My suggestion: remove the range dmg from the SS since it is a two handed weapon and give the bearer knockback immunity because with that passive ability u would be able to attack walkers or fire prism without falling back and diying immediately.
Take a look on the original speer ( even on the last stand). I think this would make sense and the weapon as little av support useful.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 9:43 pm

How about no.
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boss
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby boss » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 10:02 pm

a support hero with a melee heavy, fleet, damage buff with guide and other shite needs knockback immunity yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa what could go wrong with that I wonder plus tbh doombringer is very strong 40% damage buff on any unit on a t1 weapon which also buff her damage is nuts
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Deflaktor » Wed 21 Dec, 2016 10:48 pm

Interestingly, I started the same discussion a while back:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2177

In hindsight though, I think my initial suggestions were pretty bad. A better special is all it needs.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Tex » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 3:49 am

Things to note here:

1) Farseer is THE BEST SUPPORT HERO IN THE GAME and also has access to a melee_heavy weapon. Please try to view this weapon as circumstantial icing on the cake.

2) The singing spear performs very well when purchased for the correct circumstances. IE) You have an energy heavy build and wont be able to cast another spell and have the money to fill out your wargear; OR you have a chance at sniping a vehicle; OR your opponent is using a melee walker aggressively, OR you are using your farseer and possibly 1 more unit as a roaming squad to control a third of the map and you need them to be a diverse threat.

3) Knockback immunity is one of the best passive buffs you can get in this game.

Hence, I don't think your suggestion is a good one.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 5:09 am

I agree with the other posters - the farseer is a support hero, so if you can get a heavy_melee weapon for her you should be grateful. If you get the armour that gives her fortune, you can also get a decent HP and HP regen buff, so she can function as a pseudo-offensive commander if need be (while still having support abilities that most offensive commanders don't have access to). If the FS could have her heavy_melee weapon and KB immunity, she could be better at being an offensive commander than most offensive commanders, while still having the support abilities that come with being a support hero... this is not fair at all, since DOW2 is balanced around the principle that everyone has a set of strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Torpid » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 7:26 am

Singing Spear is amazing in 1v1.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby crog » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 4:14 pm

Tex wrote:Things to note here:

1) Farseer is THE BEST SUPPORT HERO IN THE GAME and also has access to a melee_heavy weapon. Please try to view this weapon as circumstantial icing on the cake.

2) The singing spear performs very well when purchased for the correct circumstances. IE) You have an energy heavy build and wont be able to cast another spell and have the money to fill out your wargear; OR you have a chance at sniping a vehicle; OR your opponent is using a melee walker aggressively, OR you are using your farseer and possibly 1 more unit as a roaming squad to control a third of the map and you need them to be a diverse threat.

3) Knockback immunity is one of the best passive buffs you can get in this game.

Hence, I don't think your suggestion is a good one.

1.) Almost every support hero as an AV option, take a look at the orcs meks` beamer and rocket launcher .

2.) The reason for this request was to make fs a bit better in fights vs direct walkers rushes from t2.. and to give the fs the option to have an better av and attacker for this high weapon cost´s

3.) Every race has heros with Weapon Knockback immunity except eldar
Lord Comissar for instance has an refrector field reducing energy instead of taking dmg and having WEAPON KNOCKBACK IMMUNITY FOR FREE
Lord Generals his men in a defensive formation, decreasing incoming ranged damage to your infantry in radius 35 by 30% and preventing knockback for 20 seconds on your units

Not talking about brother captain, chaoslord, fc-terminator, hive tyrant...who got that fresh out of gate.
Even Warlocks Providence at t3 for so much resources has no w. knockback immunity.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 4:16 pm

2.) The reason for this request was to make fs a bit better in fights vs direct walkers rushes from t2.. and to give the fs the option to have an better av and attacker for this high weapon cost´s


Your premise is already wrong, heavy melee hasn't been counter to melee walkers by a long time and the FS being a support hero doesn't have the HP to deal with ranged walkers either.
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Forestradio
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Forestradio » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 5:59 pm

wl has kback immunity on the t1 energy shield, wse has soft av in the form of powerblades
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby crog » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 9:50 pm

Forestradio wrote:wl has kback immunity on the t1 energy shield, wse has soft av in the form of powerblades

U mean the Champions Robe which costs 120/30... No it hasnt.
And ofc fs with its low hp isnt able to stay on toe to toe with walkers.. But the SS should give the fs more survibility so she can do at least some dmg
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Tinibombini » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 10:29 pm

crog wrote:
Forestradio wrote:wl has kback immunity on the t1 energy shield, wse has soft av in the form of powerblades

U mean the Champions Robe which costs 120/30... No it hasnt.
And ofc fs with its low hp isnt able to stay on toe to toe with walkers.. But the SS should give the fs more survibility so she can do at least some dmg


Why should she be able do to any appreciable damage to a dreadnought? The SS will help against lighter vehicles such as WW, RB, rhino, manticore, chimera, war truk and probably others. That should be more than enough boon with the FS' other tools and abilities as a support hero.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 11:30 pm

crog wrote:
Forestradio wrote:wl has kback immunity on the t1 energy shield, wse has soft av in the form of powerblades

U mean the Champions Robe which costs 120/30... No it hasnt.

Yes, the Champions Robe grants knockback immunity. Always has. The only two situations where infantry type units are immune to ALL types of knockback are Angels Of Death and Incoming!
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 11:35 pm

crog wrote:U mean the Champions Robe which costs 120/30... No it hasnt.
And ofc fs with its low hp isnt able to stay on toe to toe with walkers.. But the SS should give the fs more survibility so she can do at least some dmg


Farseer can already be kitted out as a beatstick, she doesn't need any buffs here. Let's throw out some hard numbers...

With armor of fortune and singing spear, Farseer costs 240/65 to kit out and has:
780 hp
3.5 hp/s regeneration
76.92 heavy melee dps
Speed 5.5
Along with 2 awesome support abilities - guide and fortune. These can be used on any unit, and when she casts them on herself she turns into a massive beatstick with:
1115 effective hp (30% damage reduction on 780 health)
3.5 hp/s regeneration
100 heavy melee dps


Let's compare this to another beatstick with a heavy melee weapon, the Warboss. With power claw and spiky armor, he costs 250/75, and has:
1170 hp
3 hp/s regeneration
95 heavy melee dps
Speed 5


Soooo Farseer is essentially as tanky as a Warboss and can deal more damage, for less investment. More than enough to counter fast walkers and with gate infiltration she can even be a risk to transports.

TL;DR quit whining, Farseer can already be more stompy than a warboss
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby earthsongs » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 5:44 am

Farseer is a support hero, so by design she should have maximum efficiency when deployed with other troops. All of her other wargears follow this design principle.

Except for singing spear. It veers off from this principle - its design has always perplexed me. It gives no ability and gives even less synergy with troops than heavy-melee wargears of offensive heroes.

If singing spear has to be changed, I think it should either 1. get a new support ability with much reduced combat effectiveness or 2. be removed.

Your suggestion makes singing spear a wargear suitable to offensive heroes, not support heroes, so I'm against it.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby crog » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 7:50 am

Crewfinity wrote:
crog wrote:U mean the Champions Robe which costs 120/30... No it hasnt.
And ofc fs with its low hp isnt able to stay on toe to toe with walkers.. But the SS should give the fs more survibility so she can do at least some dmg


Farseer can already be kitted out as a beatstick, she doesn't need any buffs here. Let's throw out some hard numbers...

With armor of fortune and singing spear, Farseer costs 240/65 to kit out and has:
780 hp
3.5 hp/s regeneration
76.92 heavy melee dps
Speed 5.5
Along with 2 awesome support abilities - guide and fortune. These can be used on any unit, and when she casts them on herself she turns into a massive beatstick with:
1115 effective hp (30% damage reduction on 780 health)
3.5 hp/s regeneration
100 heavy melee dps


Let's compare this to another beatstick with a heavy melee weapon, the Warboss. With power claw and spiky armor, he costs 250/75, and has:
1170 hp
3 hp/s regeneration
95 heavy melee dps
Speed 5


Soooo Farseer is essentially as tanky as a Warboss and can deal more damage, for less investment. More than enough to counter fast walkers and with gate infiltration she can even be a risk to transports.

TL;DR quit whining, Farseer can already be more stompy than a warboss

Ofc
compare your calculation with an ard Boys and use ur choppas wb.
+ another third Slot for more hp regeneration
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Tinibombini » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 9:46 pm

crog wrote:Ofc
compare your calculation with an ard Boys and use ur choppas wb.
+ another third Slot for more hp regeneration


Talk about whoosh.

It's going right over your head that the FS should not be able to compete with the warboss for a direct combat role isn't it.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Kvn » Sat 24 Dec, 2016 12:30 am

Tinibombini wrote:It's going right over your head that the FS should not be able to compete with the warboss for a direct combat role isn't it.


She can't. What's being described above is a Farseer under several different buffs (which are temporary, I might add, whereas the Warboss stats are constant with their wargears) against a Warboss without any, and without taking his other abilities/anti-melee capabilities into consideration.

As for the original topic, the SS is a strange weapon. It doesn't really have all that many good scenarios where it's useful, but it's not all that bad in and of itself either. Giving FS knockback immunity might be a bit much, but it would be interesting to see some kind of other alterations made to change up the purpose of the spear since its just a beatstick at the moment, which doesn't really compete with the two other great abilities she can choose from in Gravity Blade and Doombringer.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Tinibombini » Sat 24 Dec, 2016 3:44 am

Kvn wrote:
Tinibombini wrote:It's going right over your head that the FS should not be able to compete with the warboss for a direct combat role isn't it.


She can't. What's being described above is a Farseer under several different buffs (which are temporary, I might add, whereas the Warboss stats are constant with their wargears) against a Warboss without any, and without taking his other abilities/anti-melee capabilities into consideration.



True and I appreciate that, but even without the temporary buffs, she is doing pretty well (based on the stats in the same post) and then she can turn into a beast, albeit temporarily. But I still don't think that is really her role so her stats (both unbuffed and buffed) are really quite good when coupled with her constant utility as a support hero (which the Warboss in comparison is not, well i guess maybe if you go for a different build with the bang bang hammer).

Also, Crog's point in reply was that the Warboss was even stronger if you spent even more resources on him (accessory) and applied some red-based temporary buff, which I think just misses the point.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 2:23 pm

I dont know why a SUPPORT hero should beat a melee Walker or why the farseer as a SUPPORT hero should be tankier then a waaaghboss that is considered to be a tanky melee beast. By the way the listed support heroes who have gud av are actually ranged heroes, so they can kite and by the way beamy deffgun or say rokit launcher From kn have AV for giving up effectivness for av,techmarine has a set of antivehicle wargear so he can made to be tank hunter while Farseer has just singing spear is the only AV the farseer has except for army or doom combo, ravener alpha has a temporarily AV though its more like a Addition to av, LC or PC can become tanky to actually have heavy melee while fist of brookus and plague fist give nice abilites and LG has melta which gives him too an ability to buff army gud though meltas can get meleed to stop them From firing agile pushing forward can be deadly sometimes to keep firing, farseer is something like eldar sorcerer, buffing army or spamming abilities, while being a melee unit without real hp. I think singing spear is really weird weapon for a support hero granted, a reason why i never really buyed, doom being much betta to actually force of a unit or wiping it or gravity blade for anti-melee or combos, while singing spear is just a heavy melee blade. But knockback immunity wont help that much against dreads anyway. I say give it an ability, that helps her With her role. Point me out if i wrote something wrong being at the phone and writing a wall of Text ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Nurland » Thu 29 Dec, 2016 8:07 pm

Simging Spear is niche but still a very nice wargear. Less useful in team games compared to 1v1 but still a nice addition if your accessory and armor are very energy intensive.
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Toilailee
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Toilailee » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 3:49 am

Now that we're on the subject I can say that I never understood why eldar commander heavy melee weapons are so cheap when literally all other races pay 50 power for heavy melee on their commanders. SS even does respectable dps and WSE has his teleport.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 4:47 am

Toilailee wrote:Now that we're on the subject I can say that I never understood why eldar commander heavy melee weapons are so cheap when literally all other races pay 50 power for heavy melee on their commanders. SS even does respectable dps and WSE has his teleport.


My guess would be that a heavy melee weapon is much less deadly on a fragile Eldar commander (FS and WSE) than it is on a Warboss/Hive Tyrant/FC/LC+carapace+stubbornness. A WB or HT/LC can hold his own against a melee walker with some support, and a FC has the FOS ability, while the FS and WSE with their heavy_melee weapons are only really effective at manticore/transport sniping.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby Nurland » Sun 01 Jan, 2017 3:59 pm

They are better for transport/tank/manti sniping. Which is anyway a lot harder than killing a walker.
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Re: Farseer's weapon Suggestion

Postby lolzarz » Tue 03 Jan, 2017 3:04 am

crog wrote:1.) Almost every support hero as an AV option, take a look at the orcs meks` beamer and rocket launcher .

2.) The reason for this request was to make fs a bit better in fights vs direct walkers rushes from t2.. and to give the fs the option to have an better av and attacker for this high weapon cost´s

3.) Every race has heros with Weapon Knockback immunity except eldar
Lord Comissar for instance has an refrector field reducing energy instead of taking dmg and having WEAPON KNOCKBACK IMMUNITY FOR FREE
Lord Generals his men in a defensive formation, decreasing incoming ranged damage to your infantry in radius 35 by 30% and preventing knockback for 20 seconds on your units

Not talking about brother captain, chaoslord, fc-terminator, hive tyrant...who got that fresh out of gate.
Even Warlocks Providence at t3 for so much resources has no w. knockback immunity.


1. The beamy deffgun turns the mek into a set-up team and he's not so much a support than a ranged DPS hero. There's a reason why none of his weapons have abilities and the farseer has 2.

2. The farseer shouldn't be involved in a direct fight against a walker. Use one of her 800 abilities to help the fire dragon/brightlance/(insert AV option here) KO the walker. Use her to kill escaping APCs.

3. The Lord Commissar's energy field is free because it is also the least efficient one in the game and is often called a liability late game because it takes away energy from other abilities. The Lord General's ability also requires energy. Everyone who gets weapon knockback immunity by default is a slow melee tank hero. You're asking for passive knockback immunity on a support hero.
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