Potential Shee Change

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Atlas

Potential Shee Change

Postby Atlas » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 6:08 pm

Howling Banshees:
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Banshee Leap removed.
Banshees now charge into combat.
Banshees charge speed modifier set to only +1 speed.(normally set to +2/+3 speed)
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So, this is supposed to address the issue of Banshees becoming kb immune when they begin their leap animation. This is really becoming a problem for SM and IG in specific, who often depend on their shotgun kb abilities to get shees off a unit.

As for the charge speed, the normal values for melee charge is a squad gaining a +2 or +3 speed bonus. For reference, old charging shees got a +3 speed bonus, which you then stacked on top of the FoF, SwMo and other shit.

The way this change is envisioned is to still give the Shees the ability to close in a unit while not being as toxic fast and avoiding the kb immune shenanigans with leap. This might make them potentially less able to close in on a unit early in the game, when FoF isn't available, but I think it's a decent tradeoff.

Would you guys be cool with this?
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Ace of Swords » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 6:30 pm

Yes leap was retarded, about the charge just give them w/e bonus they had to be in the past they haven't been those super good chasers for a long time now. +1 seems a bit too little.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Kvn » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 6:31 pm

While I understand, and somewhat agree with, the reasoning behind the proposed change, wouldn't a similar thing have to be done then for every other leap-oriented melee unit such as Stoms, Hormagaunts, the Warlock, etc. if it was done under the logic of knockback immunity?

And, perhaps as a side note, do Banshees really need another nerf? It seems a bit much given they've been smacked down pretty hard from what they used to be already.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 6:36 pm

I have to say that I am actually happy to see this discussion. I would agree with Ace, just return their charge with the old bonus. If that seems over the top, make it +2.5 or +2. That should also fix the teleport-leap for Banshees that is.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Psycho » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:12 pm

Kvn wrote:While I understand, and somewhat agree with, the reasoning behind the proposed change, wouldn't a similar thing have to be done then for every other leap-oriented melee unit such as Stoms, Hormagaunts, the Warlock, etc. if it was done under the logic of knockback immunity?

And, perhaps as a side note, do Banshees really need another nerf? It seems a bit much given they've been smacked down pretty hard from what they used to be already.


If it was up to me I'd remove leap from every leap-capable unit and replace it with a charge.

And the thing about nerf, I don't believe that the knockback immunity is taken into account for their balance. If anything, the more predictable charge would allow banshees to be balanced properly since now things like shotgun scouts and catachans will work properly vs them. If they're too weak, they can be buffed, and if they're too strong, they can be nerfed, without their balance depending on the defects of the game engine that make an ability designed specifically to counter them not working as intended at best or making the banshees do things they're not even supposed to be able to do at worst.

Two examples of the latter are banshees suddenly flying to a different squad and tying it up in melee due to changing targets mid-animation (Try being on the receiving end of that one with a set-up team and not ragequitting, and this isn't even with war shout counted in) and a single model getting through explosive shot due to the knockback immunity and suppressing the squad with the war shout due to 300 courage damage per second per model while the rest of the eldar army moves in (P.S. I'm not complaining about War Shout itself).

As far as I know the first of the to examples is possible with ANY leap-capable unit. I've seen it with the Warlock, the DA exarch, banshees, ASM, hormas, you name it, but it's somewhat more difficult with some units due to differences in the duration of the leap animation that gives you this time window to cause the exploit.

If the removal of the leap from ALL leap-capable units were to happen, I do not deny for a second that some units will be hit harder than others, but I'm confident that they can be rebalanced properly with a few tweaks, since their balance will no longer be dependant on being immune to abilities supposed to counter said units.

I don't even need to say how much I fucking hate the units who have knockback on charge ON TOP of knockback-immune leap, like the warlock hero and the DA exarch. It's a strange sight to see either of these completely countering the Warboss' angry bitz by knocking him back mid-charge.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Kvn » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:24 pm

Psycho wrote:

And the thing about nerf, I don't believe that the knockback immunity is taken into account for their balance. If anything, the more predictable charge would allow banshees to be balanced properly since now things like shotgun scouts and catachans will work properly vs them. If they're too weak, they can be buffed, and if they're too strong, they can be nerfed, without their balance depending on the defects of the game engine that make an ability designed specifically to counter them not working as intended at best or making the banshees do things they're not even supposed to be able to do at worst.


Sorry, I probably should have specified that I was referring to their base performance rather than their ability to take advantage of an unforeseen bug. With the proposed changes, their combat leap (which is not all that great of a distance-closer, but is still something) would be replaced with a speed 1 combat charge (which, as far as the Banshees would be concerned, would be marginally better than not having a combat charge at all). I'm all for getting rid of the leap seeing as it causes issues on both sides with knockback/teleleaping, as well as hampering their chase potential and causing insta-wipes from grenade spikes.

I apologize for not clearing that up.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Psycho » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:35 pm

Kvn wrote:Sorry, I probably should have specified that I was referring to their base performance rather than their ability to take advantage of an unforeseen bug. With the proposed changes, their combat leap (which is not all that great of a distance-closer, but is still something) would be replaced with a speed 1 combat charge (which, as far as the Banshees would be concerned, would be marginally better than not having a combat charge at all). I'm all for getting rid of the leap seeing as it causes issues on both sides with knockback/teleleaping, as well as hampering their chase potential and causing insta-wipes from grenade spikes.

I apologize for not clearing that up.


Ah, right. The speed 1 combat charge seems more oriented to counter the various speed buffs banshees can get, though it does hinder then in the early early game when said buffs are not present other than maybe FoF. I was imagining that perhaps a global hard-cap on infantry speed could be put in place so that they get their early game charge speed while not turning into a full battlewagon in terms of speed late-game, but I'm not even sure if it's possible or the unforeseen consequences it can bring since it was just a fleeting thought. The reason why it'd be a global hard-cap is because it'd feel strange for the hard-cap to only apply to banshees.
Atlas

Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Atlas » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:43 pm

Leap vs Charge is more than just an arbitrary setting. Leaping units, by virtue of their behavior, are less able to pursue kill. Stormboyz for example, would be the perfect example of this. If you made Stormboyz charge, you would almost definitely have to compensate with less general melee prowess.
But if you do that, then they are obviously less capable vs units when in combat. In summation, leaping is a way to keep units powerful, but not utter squad wipers.

Banshees is just the hotspot for this discussion because of the Warshout causing super problems. It only takes 1 Banshee model for Warshout to essentially have its full effect on a squad, which then forces a retreat. That being said, there was a reason the old charge was removed in the first place. There's too many ways to enhance that speed to the point of just being ridiculous.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Psycho » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 7:57 pm

I'd consider the stormboyz, along with ASM, somewhat of a special case since their leaping isn't as pronounced due to the jump ability being their main venue of closing in, and the subsequent leaping just allowing them to close in more precisely on the squad that might've moved a little without disrupting/stunning them. In that case, the knockback immunity given on purpose after they land overlaps with the leaping, so the knockback immunity brought by the leaping isn't even something to consider for the opponent using catas or scouts since one would wait for the knockback immunity to wear off anyways.

I do admit that I somehow passed them over and put all leap units in the same basket, but the stormboyz and ASM (and any unit that I might've forgotten following the same logic) do not use the leap as their main venue of closing in, whereas banshees, warlock, hormas, and so on, do.

At the end of the day this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation unless one alters a plethora of other things like even buffing the retreat speed of units to compensate.

I hope this isn't asking for too much, but can we get a list of all leap-capable units?
Atlas

Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Atlas » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 9:12 pm

Psycho wrote:I hope this isn't asking for too much, but can we get a list of all leap-capable units?


Off the top of my head:

Autarch
Warlock
Seer Council
DA/WG Exarchs
Shees
Palas/GK Terms (1 of them, forget which)
Horms
Warriors
ASM
Stormz
Raptors
Bloodletters
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 9:27 pm

Atlas wrote:
Psycho wrote:I hope this isn't asking for too much, but can we get a list of all leap-capable units?


Off the top of my head:

Autarch
Warlock
Seer Council
DA/WG Exarchs
Shees
Palas/GK Terms (1 of them, forget which)
Horms
Warriors
ASM
Stormz
Raptors
Bloodletters


Remember though that not all leaps are the same. Some knock back, some don't. If you take away the leap from the Warriors e.g. they wont knock back units any longer. Same goes for Warlock and Seer Council. The GK Termis are the ones that can assault teleport. They do it frustratingly often which makes kiting them close to impossible. We should tread carefully here.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 10:23 pm

Kvn wrote:And, perhaps as a side note, do Banshees really need another nerf? It seems a bit much given they've been smacked down pretty hard from what they used to be already.
What the hell are you talking about? Their vanilla HP buff? Their cost decrease? Or any of there other buffs?
The only big "nerf" (which is just a fix in my eyes) is that they can't chase down units from across the whole map from full HP any more.

Don't remove all the leaps. Warriors for example need it. Just start with shees. They seem to be the only issue. And the DA exarch should not leap and do knockback. Another good example of how crazy good DA are. They do not need this. The leap can fuck up so many things.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 10:47 pm

I think it would be a good change.

Atlas wrote:Banshees is just the hotspot for this discussion because of the Warshout causing super problems. It only takes 1 Banshee model for Warshout to essentially have its full effect on a squad, which then forces a retreat. That being said, there was a reason the old charge was removed in the first place. There's too many ways to enhance that speed to the point of just being ridiculous.

IIRC, the main reason the old charge was removed is because they could simply hit units in full retreat thanks to their FoF and movement speed Eldar buffs.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Deflaktor » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 11:25 pm

Psycho wrote:And the thing about nerf, I don't believe that the knockback immunity is taken into account for their balance. If anything, the more predictable charge would allow banshees to be balanced properly since now things like shotgun scouts and catachans will work properly vs them. If they're too weak, they can be buffed, and if they're too strong, they can be nerfed, without their balance depending on the defects of the game engine that make an ability designed specifically to counter them not working as intended at best or making the banshees do things they're not even supposed to be able to do at worst.


This is probably going to be the last patch for elite, so this is a very delicate change. Removing the leap and giving a weak charge can be a pretty big deal, especially when considering that DA are also getting nerfed and as such next patch would impact the whole eldar core army. To me it seems people are underestimating the impact a balance change of such core units can have. Keep in mind that neither Dire Avengers nor Banshees scale very well into later tiers.
As eldar player for me the bugging leap is also quite annoying, so I am glad if that would go. However the compensation needs to be an equally strong charge.

EDIT: That being said, I want the leap to stay. It was an instant fix to that retreat killing potential without crippling the unit in other aspects. Imo the best compromise would be to tie the leap to the aspects. As such they cant use FoF in combination with charge speed bonus. Unupgraded shees would then get a charge with +2.5 speed or something.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Kvn » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 11:35 pm

Dark Riku wrote:What the hell are you talking about? Their vanilla HP buff? Their cost decrease? Or any of there other buffs?
The only big "nerf" (which is just a fix in my eyes) is that they can't chase down units from across the whole map from full HP any more.


You know Riku, it gets very tiresome having you pick and choose which tiny details to look at while ignoring the big picture, and talking down to people the whole time. Ask any Eldar player whether Banshees are better or worse than they used to be, and they will almost all say, as they have been saying for a while, that Banshees are less effective.

They might have a lesser cost, but they have much less cost-effectiveness. Their damage is less impressive, as well as their significant loss in chase potential, which was one of the main things that made them so lethal in the past. Whether you think that was justified or not, you can't pretend that it wasn't a nerf.

Many people are already leaning towards the idea that they're simply not worth the effort anymore, and have phased them out of builds in favor of pure DA openings.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:13 am

Kvn wrote:...
You know what's really tiresome? Reading some of the bullshit that gets posted.
The things you are claiming here are not in the slightest "tiny details". And if you thought they are then why bother posting them?

Banshees are not less effective at all, let alone less cost-effective because with the cost decrease they have become way more cost effective.
The only reason you see Dire Avengers more often is because DA are stupidly strong and I assume easier for most people to use than banshees are.
It probably also doesn't help that most people only play 3v3's where melee is generally harder to use and less effective.
The banshee DPS is exactly the same as it was in retail and on top of that they have the option to specialise versus (S)HI with their aspect of fleetness.
Their chase potential made them retarded. They are still very lethal due to how strong their KB attacks are in melee.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Psycho » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:17 am

Deflaktor wrote:EDIT: That being said, I want the leap to stay. It was an instant fix to that retreat killing potential without crippling the unit in other aspects. Imo the best compromise would be to tie the leap to the aspects. As such they cant use FoF in combination with charge speed bonus. Unupgraded shees would then get a charge with +2.5 speed or something.


The leap has to go. If there was an option to keep the leap in but also not have it grant immunity to knockback while the animation is playing, I'd be all for it, but there can't be a compromise because of the game engine's limitations. As much as it fixes the retreat killing potential, it fucks up proper engagements in equal or greater manner due to abilities no longer being reliable in what they're supposed to do, granting an advantage to the banshees that can just be annoying at best to deal with or an outright engagement-winning scenario of an engagement that shouldn't have been won, and could lead to the aforementioned retreats.

I do agree with the others in terms of just removing it for the banshees and DA exarch/WG warlock to start off, and I'd also consider the warlock hero himself, as it's still something that affects the early game leading to snowballing if it gets out of control due to unpredictable results in those engagements. This, added to war shout, added to a near-instant special wind-up time which hits you even if you walk away from it, added to the exarch's 50% ranged damaged reduction while FoFing if it happens in T2, added to the natural damage reduction due to being in melee, just add up and synergize with each other since they happen at the same time. I'm not complaining about anything I just mentioned, mind you, they're traits rather than issues. I think sluggas have the same special wind-up time while ASM have the common slow one, but as far as I know nobody has brought attention to it regarding those two units if only because they're small little traits that don't get piled up onto other traits that benefit each other, so they're not even worth a look, and nobody minds it, and that's alright.

Yet, they're alright because there's something designed to counter it, and if the counter doesn't work 100% of the time, then it becomes an issue. Now this is the type of situation where balancing is hardest since you either fuck one thing up or fuck another thing up, and the choice of just increasing the retreat speed of units will fuck up years of muscle memory regarding nades or guesswork regarding where a unit would be time later if retreating.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Atlas » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:26 am

I'm not entirely sure, buy we might be able to put on a speed cap on Shees. Would that help?
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Psycho » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:41 am

Perhaps, but that'd also lead to the question on how to get it across to players who don't know about it, same issue as the LR's DR.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:49 am

Psycho wrote:Perhaps, but that'd also lead to the question on how to get it across to players who don't know about it, same issue as the LR's DR.


Just put it in the tooltip?
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Kvn » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:54 am

Dark Riku wrote:You know what's really tiresome? Reading some of the bullshit that gets posted.


And this attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. Assuming that nothing anybody else says has any value is a very toxic attitude to take, and colors your posts before you even make them.

Dark Riku wrote:The things you are claiming here are not in the slightest "tiny details". And if you thought they are then why bother posting them?


Because of the simple code of etiquette when debating with someone. If the other person makes a point, whether you think it has merit or not, you make your counterpoint. Very little is taken as self-explanatory.

Dark Riku wrote:Banshees are not less effective at all, let alone less cost-effective because with the cost decrease they have become way more cost effective.


They are less cost-effective. Significantly. They don't kill nearly as much thanks to their toned-down damage output (see below before dismissing), and can't pick off anywhere near as many fleeing units thanks to their leaps being put in place of chase. A combat leap that doesn't knock down or deal damage is largely inferior to a charge in almost all cases, with the main exception being the bugs that can be abused. Many players, and I'm assuming you as well, put this as a fully justified change, but again, whether you think this is justified or not, it doesn't change the fact that it makes them perform to a much lesser degree than they used to.

Dark Riku wrote:The only reason you see Dire Avengers more often is because DA are stupidly strong and I assume easier for most people to use than banshees are.


The funny thing is the only big changes DA got between now and back when Banshees were using their fearsome chase potential (slightly toned down from retail of course) is the fact that they can get their Exarch in T1 without the damage resist and the bouncing back and forth between 300 and 270 rec (started 300, changed to 270, pushed back to 300, leap introduced, and finally changed back to 270, ironically with the lessened Banshee performance being a contributing factor discussed on a few forums back around 2.5.1), but their current base stats were the same at the time.

Dark Riku wrote:It probably also doesn't help that most people only play 3v3's where melee is generally harder to use and less effective.


So players like Asmon and, if I recall correctly, Adila (I apologize to him if I'm mistaken as I'm not 100% sure on that one) who were talking about the lessened effectiveness of Banshees vs DA only play 3v3?

Dark Riku wrote:The banshee DPS is exactly the same as it was in retail and on top of that they have the option to specialise versus (S)HI with their aspect of fleetness.


Their damage output was reduced by virtue of their lessened chase potential and the benefit to kiting from the leap's attack animation delay. Not all nerfs are done purely by numbers.

Dark Riku wrote:Their chase potential made them retarded. They are still very lethal due to how strong their KB attacks are in melee.


If that's your view of it, that's fine and it's perfectly reasonable for you to think that. But to try and say that they're just as good as they used to be isn't going to cut it. They're not. Plain and simple. They have had some considerable nerfs thanks to the changes made both directly (the leap over the charge being the big one) and indirectly (competing with DA who are much more cost-effective nowadays).
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:21 am

Kvn wrote:And this attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. Assuming that nothing anybody else says has any value is a very toxic attitude to take, and colors your posts before you even make them.
It's priceless how you are accusing me :) Remind us again who went on the personal side right away by stating that my posts are tiresome and that I don't consider the whole picture. Bitch please.
I sunk a great deal of my free time into this and posts and this kind of bullshit you are pulling is just priceless :)
Kvn wrote:Because of the simple code of etiquette when debating with someone. If the other person makes a point, whether you think it has merit or not, you make your counterpoint. Very little is taken as self-explanatory.
Okay? Then why don't you follow your own advice and apply that yourself? °_O
Kvn wrote:They are less cost-effective. Significantly. They don't kill nearly as much thanks to their toned-down damage output (see below before making a counter-argument), and can't pick off anywhere near as many fleeing units thanks to their leaps being put in place of chase. A combat leap that doesn't knock down or deal damage is largely inferior to a charge in almost all cases, with the main exception being the bugs that can be abused. Many players, and I'm assuming you as well, put this as a fully justified change, but again, whether you think this is justified or not, it doesn't change the fact that it makes them perform to a much lesser degree than they used to.
Non of this changes the fact that their DPS is unchanged against all targets.
And they stay cost effective for sure because of their own cost decrease. Why wouldn't you factor that one in is beyond me.
Kvn wrote:The funny thing is the only big changes DA got between now and back when Banshees were using their fearsome chase potential (slightly toned down from retail of course) is the fact that they can get their Exarch in T1 without the damage resist and the bouncing back and forth between 300 and 270 rec (started 300, changed to 270, pushed back to 300, leap introduced, and finally changed back to 270, ironically with the lessened Banshee performance being a contributing factor discussed on a few forums back around 2.5.1), but their current base stats were the same at the time.
The only funny thing I find here is how you can think that the cost reduction to 270 and the leader upgrade moved to T1 while also providing detection is something insignificant.
Kvn wrote:So players like Asmon and, if I recall correctly, Adila (I apologize to him if I'm mistaken as I'm not 100% sure on that one) who were talking about the lessened effectiveness of Banshees vs DA only play 3v3?
I am not going to believe you on your word. That has worked out badly for people in the past already ... You should be careful when speaking for other people.
And even if they are of that opinion I most strongly disagree.
Kvn wrote:Their damage output was reduced by virtue of their lessened chase potential and the benefit to kiting from the leap's attack animation delay. Not all nerfs are done purely by numbers.
Do you know what DPS means?
Kvn wrote:If that's your view of it, that's fine and it's perfectly reasonable for you to think that. But to try and say that they're just as good as they used to be isn't going to cut it. They're not. Plain and simple. They have had some considerable nerfs thanks to the changes made both directly (the leap over the charge being the big one) and indirectly (competing with DA who are much more cost-effective nowadays).
Let me take it a step further then: Shees in Elite are strictly better in every way except for their chase potential.

Great derail here KVN, good job!
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Kvn » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:47 am

Dark Riku wrote:It's priceless how you are accusing me :) Remind us again who went on the personal side right away by stating that my posts are tiresome and that I don't consider the whole picture. Bitch please.
I sunk a great deal of my free time into this and posts and this kind of bullshit you are pulling is just priceless :)


Here's the thing. You've been making this personal for a lot longer than just one thread. I've been dealing with you insulting both the points I'm making and your perception of my skill level for quite some time, dating back to my original topic titled "A few Eldar Questions".

Dark Riku wrote:Okay? Then why don't you follow your own advice and apply that yourself? °_O


I am. Hence why I'm responding to each of your posts with detailed points, on each of your own.

Dark Riku wrote:Non of this changes the fact that their DPS is unchanged against all targets.
And they stay cost effective for sure because of their own cost decrease. Why wouldn't you factor that one in is beyond me.


As it happens, just because something's cost goes down, doesn't mean it's cost-effectiveness goes up. The Banshees got cheaper, but their lethality was lessened, hence why they became less cost-effective overall. Basically the TL:DR version of my entire post.

Dark Riku wrote:The only funny thing I find here is how you can think that the cost reduction to 270 and the leader upgrade moved to T1 while also providing detection is something insignificant.


Take a look at it then. DA alone with Exarch in T1 at 300 rec were considered too weak, and thus buffed. That buff took the form of a thirty rec decrease in cost. While not tiny by any means, it's certainly not a super-unheard of price change. This is what I thought was funny. They went from being not effective enough to compensate for the Banshee drop, to, as you put it, "stupidly strong" in the eyes of many people purely by a relatively small change in requisition.

Dark Riku wrote:I am not going to believe you on your word. That has worked out badly for people in the past already ... You should be careful when speaking for other people.
And even if they are of that opinion I most strongly disagree.


I'm not speaking for other people. I'm pointing out that other people spoke out for themselves. You stated that most people play only 3v3s, and I countered by pointing out that the people speaking up are pretty strong and dedicated 1v1 names.

You're free to disagree, but don't go toting your beliefs as facts.

Dark Riku wrote:Do you know what DPS means?


Yes, and I'm shocked that I need to point out to you so many times that there are so many factors in play.

Dark Riku wrote:Let me take it a step further then: Shees in Elite are strictly better in every way except for their chase potential.


And given that they're considered, performance wise, much weaker now, what does that tell you?

Dark Riku wrote:Great derail here KVN, good job!


Sigh. Hypocrisy. My initial post was purely on the topic of the proposed Banshee changes. This is the post that derailed everything:

Dark Riku wrote:What the hell are you talking about? Their vanilla HP buff? Their cost decrease? Or any of there other buffs?
The only big "nerf" (which is just a fix in my eyes) is that they can't chase down units from across the whole map from full HP any more.


But seeing as I agree with things getting off-topic, consider this my last post on this subject.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Atlas » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 2:07 am

Ok, let's call it here folks. It's hard to really get a feel where people are on the idea if the thread is hijacked by 2 peeps feuding with each other.
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Flash
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Flash » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:06 am

I'm curious about the speed cap. That might be a good thing to look at. I'm all for getting rid of the leap, that is crazy OP currently. I think charge speed 1 is too small. I don't think banshees should require FoF to get into combat. So on that speed cap.

Could it be capped at 8.5? 8.5 is the base speed + FoF. That would mean you couldn't stack the charge and the FoF, nor the Swift Movement and charge/FoF. Swift Movement will take speed to 7.5 currently. Another thing to tinker with, would be charge delay. Is it possible to have the delay increase by say 1-2 seconds after each charge is activated, resetting after a set period of time? idk 15-20 seconds (handwavium numbers)? That way banshees can have their speed but can no longer chase things all the way back to base, which was the original problem.
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Psycho
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Psycho » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 5:30 am

Banshees get a base speed of 6 with the exarch upgrade due to a .5+ base bonus, if you wanted to use base speed + FoF as cap. If said speed turns out to be an issue it could be altered to give an increased charge distance like the apo's sanguine chainsword instead.
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Torpid
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Torpid » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 7:42 am

Alternatively of course we could give them high speed but a very very low damage-on-retreat modifier like we did with warp spiders.

The boon to this is that they would once again be effective AV, which I think they deserve really as they are a fragile unit. But ever since they got their leap their AV capabilities have been meh at best.

You've got to love the depth of this game where something as simple as a change from a unit having a leap into combat or a melee-charge into combat affects so much!
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:47 am

I respectfully disagree with you Torrid. They don't need higher AV capabilities since we now have Fire Dragons on top of everything else Eldar have.
Also, it should be rewarded if you out-flank a player and get some models on retreat. That is what Banshees were all about. Counter-initiation and flanking machines. Let us not forget that their biggest bleed potential has been capped in the knee as well with the last patch: Rangers. If you take it away from Banshees as well, I fear they will be in an even worse spot against races like SM for example or HI heavy races in general. Their models are already hard to kill.
I am also at a loss about this constant complaining about some Eldar units from players I know to be SM mains (Riku excluded here) which are currently simply not cutting it vs SM. Namely Banshees and Rangers. I recommend you all go look at replays from Tex or Torpid to see how Eldar can be dismantled by clever tactics and Eldar won't do shot against that.

The charge change should be mainly thought of as a fix to the leap-bug above all else.
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Atlas » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:23 pm

Noobus my god man, since when did you start sticking up for Eldar so hard :X
(But it's fine :P )

For reference, their retreat damage reduction was actually removed in 2.4, when they got the leap into combat. We could probably reinstate that, as Torpid has alluded to, should it be needed.

But as Noobus mentions, the main point of the change we're discussing would be to remove the kb bug on leap. I think it needs to be established if this is worth fixing.

Putting the charge back in is not really intended to make Banshees wipe units from across the map. Is there some compromise here with reinstating the charge and some kind of speed cap/retreat damage reduction?
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Flash
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Re: Potential Shee Change

Postby Flash » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:57 pm

Is a delay in subsequent charges possible?

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