Give PM and CPM HI Armour?

[Oddnerd]

If you changed the hp of PM to 445 and CPM to 500, then gave them HI armour, they will have the same effective HP against piercing damage that they currently do, but will have the weakness to plasma/inferno/power weapons that other units wearing power armour have.

I once asked why giving them HI armour was out of the question and someone said it would be horribly unfair to orks (they would be very painful for races with no anti-HI ranged damage to bring down, which is a fair point). I don't see why chaos deserves to have a unit that has a huge HP pool, incredibly high HP regen, and none of the damage weaknesses that other power armour units have.

[hiveminion]

If you changed the hp of PM to 445 and CPM to 500, then gave them HI armour, they will have the same effective HP against piercing damage that they currently do, but will have the weakness to plasma/inferno/power weapons that other units wearing power armour have.

I once asked why giving them HI armour was out of the question and someone said it would be horribly unfair to orks (they would be very painful for races with no anti-HI ranged damage to bring down, which is a fair point). I don't see why chaos deserves to have a unit that has a huge HP pool, incredibly high HP regen, and none of the damage weaknesses that other power armour units have.

PMs just need that fourth model reinstated so they have increased bleed potential and that retarded anti-infantry damage nerfed.

[Cyris]

PMs just need that fourth model reinstated so they have increased bleed potential and that retarded anti-infantry damage nerfed.

Agree there (though one or the other, not both nerfs imo)

Part of me would like to see them as HI, mainly for aesthetic reasons. Why are they the one unit in power armor that isn't HI? Balance wise it's a lot more scary though, but it does make for more clear counters to them. I'd rather see one of the changes hive mentioned though, in addition to the upkeep already listed in the patch notes.

[Torpid]

I think that's just too big of a change for no real balance reason. In the early days of elite PMs certainly weren't seen as being OP, but their AI damage and the 3 models are the changes. Personally I'd rather just reduce their AI damage. The squad is after-all designed to be tanky. Great at capping and not bleeding a lot. It shouldn't however be able to beat dedicated ranged units in ranged firefights...

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Part of me would like to see them as HI, mainly for aesthetic reasons. Why are they the one unit in power armor that isn't HI? Balance wise it's a lot more scary though, but it does make for more clear counters to them. I'd rather see one of the changes hive mentioned though, in addition to the upkeep already listed in the patch notes.

Balance reasons, I suppose. With a more lore perspective, its simple because their armours are half flesh and Nurgle stuff and half power armour.

I think that's just too big of a change for no real balance reason. In the early days of elite PMs certainly weren't seen as being OP, but their AI damage and the 3 models are the changes. Personally I'd rather just reduce their AI damage. The squad is after-all designed to be tanky. Great at capping and not bleeding a lot. It shouldn't however be able to beat dedicated ranged units in ranged firefights...

Which dedicated ranged squads beats PM? Default Scouts? Default Shootas? A squishy ranged squad out of cover, with a third of the PM health? Because without cover or support, with 31 dps aren't going to beat too much dedicated T2 ranged squads.

Still, have to admit that they are doing a bit too much AI dps, if we have in mind their role and their stats and it should be reduced a bit.

[Torpid]

I think that's just too big of a change for no real balance reason. In the early days of elite PMs certainly weren't seen as being OP, but their AI damage and the 3 models are the changes. Personally I'd rather just reduce their AI damage. The squad is after-all designed to be tanky. Great at capping and not bleeding a lot. It shouldn't however be able to beat dedicated ranged units in ranged firefights...

Which dedicated ranged squads beats PM? Default Scouts? Default Shootas? A squishy ranged squad out of cover, with a third of the PM health? Because without cover or support, with 31 dps aren't going to beat too much dedicated T2 ranged squads.

Still, have to admit that they are doing a bit too much AI dps, if we have in mind their role and their stats and it should be reduced a bit.

I've seen it quite a lot. Guardsmen for example that are fully upgraded doing nothing to PMs. DA and shootas underperform too, termagants likewise.

Dps is misleading since a good chunk of their dps ignores cover, then them having 3 models means they don't really get a damage drop-off over the course of the firefight (whereas other squads do, especially lasgun GM and termagants) and then they have the high regen that gives them way more effective hp over the long 1v1 firefights.

Gotta remember 3 shoota models is more expensive than a PM model too... PMs help vs SUT since they fire normally in suppression and ignore a portion of cover. They help vs melee due to their passive snaring aura and explosion on death. And they are very strong AV. When all of this is considered it becomes quite clear why they seem to be overperforming.

[darthmisery]

+1 to torpids comments, pm's dot and VERY high health regen really annoys me when trying to force them off, even with two gm squads. My GM's just keep bleeding and the pm's just sit in heavy cover and laugh.

[Tinibombini]

In the early days of elite PMs certainly weren't seen as being OP, but their AI damage and the 3 models are the changes. Personally I'd rather just reduce their AI damage.

I would also add back the fourth member but there is a lot of wisdom to just reverting units to the state they were in prior to being seen as OP instead of tinkering further (this goes for quite of a few of the relatively recent balance changes in Elite).

While we have the benefit of experience with PMs, what about CPMs? They have always been a bit silly to me and I wouldn't mind a change to HI to see how that helps deal with them and forces PC players to think about how they will get into melee instead of just walking them it.

[Torpid]

Change Proposal:

Plague Marines -
Upkeep increased from 10.2 to 12.75.
Plague bolter damage per hit reduced from 18 to 12. (retail was 9 for reference).

Chosen Plague Marines -
Cost increased to 480/30/175 from 500/50/200.
On hit DOT’s damage type changed from heavy melee to ordinary melee pvp (no anti-walker capabilities and perhaps more importantly less insane destruction of hero armour).
Chosen Plague Marine plague knife DoT damage stacking limited to stacking a maximum of 5 times.
Chosen Plague Marine health reduced from 750 per model to 700.

Justification/Impetus:

For CPM - Intent is to make them still fulfill their anti-blob-melee role while not being quite so hard to focus down and thus just making them “OP” in a chaos melee bumrush as well as not being supplementary anti-walker and very good anti-hero.

Why not reduce hp regen of both?

"I don't agree with reducing the hp regen on PMs as that is their unique thing. And they are meant to be a tanky squad that is the whole purpose of them - they need to be tanky to stall melee, to cap points under fire, to counter suppression. I also don't agree with your analysis that high HP regen is more justifiable on PMs than CPMs. Yes, CPMs become tankier when in combat - so don't engage them. Run away. They are slow and vulnerable to ranged fire unlike PMs that will use cover and precisely due to that low speed they will take a lot of damage getting into a fight.

DOT stacking capping is not a bad idea though. That will stop them being so uber vs heroes too.

And without the hp regen nerf we won't need to buff nurgle's rot via a cd change.

Their overall tankiness could however be slightly reduced, so a -50hp from each model may be enough for now. Baby-steps."

Do we agree that this issue is resolved?

[Crewfinity]

Change Proposal:

Plague Marines -
Upkeep increased from 10.2 to 12.75.
Plague bolter damage per hit reduced from 18 to 12. (retail was 9 for reference).

Does this mean that the PM's DOT will be decreased as well? That's a much bigger problem than the actual damage on hit in my opinion, and I'd rather see nerfs that target the sustained dps rather than the up front hits.

[Oddnerd]

It will be hard to say until we get to practice with/against them, but those seem like fair changes. Looking back, 30 power for CPM and their Heavy_melee DOT was bonkers. The reduction in PM bolter damage seems like a good idea as well; hopefully this will make them less able to function as an anti-infantry unit.

EDIT - I expect a lot of people will want to see the DOT reduced or removed, but in another thread you mentioned the desire not to eliminate quirky traits that make certain units unique... in general I agree with this, having these one-off properties adds some flavour to the game and keeps the army rosters more distinct from one another.

[Atlas]

A loss of 50 hp a model on CPM is not even going to be noticeable. These guys are still going to tank armies worth of dps imo. Maybe the stacking limit, which ultimately caps their dps quite significantly, will be enough.

[Ace of Swords]

CPMs, for whatever reason, were intended to be anti-melee tech, however their current health pool and regen makes them tanks that will get the focus of the entire army of your opponent and still get in melee range.

It's pretty obvious they need a massive HP decrease so that they are only purchased as a reactionary choice to mass melee/multiple jump/teleporting squads.

[Crewfinity]

CPMs, for whatever reason, were intended to be anti-melee tech, however their current health pool and regen makes them tanks that will get the focus of the entire army of your opponent and still get in melee range.

It's pretty obvious they need a massive HP decrease so that they are only purchased as a reactionary choice to mass melee/multiple jump/teleporting squads.

because those are viable builds against PC anyway XD

totally agree though, they're still stupid tanky, especially with all the methods of support that he has (suppressing shrines that heal, nurgle heal thing, worship, ToN, etc...)

[Oddnerd]

I think one of the best ways to judge the balance of a unit is to see what kind of play styles it tends to promote. Based on my own experience I would say that CPM are a complete disaster in that respect. They are pretty much the pinnacle of mindless a-move tactics.

I think Ace hit the nail on the head - we will know CPM are well-balanced when they are primarily purchased as a counter-melee / melee superiority unit, not a large damage sponge that can force an entire army to focus them down or flee.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Problem with Chosen Plague Marines is if you increase the damage they do (melee superiority?) and decrease their health you have a KCSM squad with less speed, no melee charge and a constant little AOE snare.

CPM, if you want them to be a bodyguard squad, must be focused in make the target don't reach the allied target (CC, snares)more than kill it by themselves. Chaos already have some squads which can do that.

[boss]

Problem with Chosen Plague Marines is if you increase the damage they do (melee superiority?) and decrease their health you have a KCSM squad with less speed, no melee charge and a constant little AOE snare.

CPM, if you want them to be a bodyguard squad, must be focused in make the target don't reach the allied target (CC, snares)more than kill it by themselves. Chaos already have some squads which can do that.

So why their they even put in then?

Cpm cant be balance cos they have no place in a chaos amy without being op cos they have other squads to beat melee with and a brain dead hero to shit on melee with some dum globals to so again why does a Plague Champion need CPM to?

[Tinibombini]

Cpm cant be balance cos they have no place in a chaos amy without being op cos they have other squads to beat melee with and a brain dead hero to shit on melee with some dum globals to so again why does a Plague Champion need CPM to?

This is a good point. I seem to recall the reasons CPM were created was because no one really used the Plague of Undeath Global. So instead of a global no one used, we got a global with a pointlessly OP unit that doesn't really fill a real role. Probably better to just get rid of CPM altogether than tinker away with them.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Cpm cant be balance cos they have no place in a chaos amy without being op cos they have other squads to beat melee with and a brain dead hero to shit on melee with some dum globals to so again why does a Plague Champion need CPM to?

This is a good point. I seem to recall the reasons CPM were created was because no one really used the Plague of Undeath Global. So instead of a global no one used, we got a global with a pointlessly OP unit that doesn't really fill a real role. Probably better to just get rid of CPM altogether than tinker away with them.

It's not that they don't have a role. They are just fullfilling another role as well, namely that of a damage-sponge, which they were not supposed to be. Their main role is that of a counter-initiation melee-superiority unit, which they fit very very well.

[boss]

Cpm cant be balance cos they have no place in a chaos amy without being op cos they have other squads to beat melee with and a brain dead hero to shit on melee with some dum globals to so again why does a Plague Champion need CPM to?

This is a good point. I seem to recall the reasons CPM were created was because no one really used the Plague of Undeath Global. So instead of a global no one used, we got a global with a pointlessly OP unit that doesn't really fill a real role. Probably better to just get rid of CPM altogether than tinker away with them.

It's not that they don't have a role. They are just fullfilling another role as well, namely that of a damage-sponge, which they were not supposed to be. Their main role is that of a counter-initiation melee-superiority unit, which they fit very very well.

Counter-initiation melee-superiority unit yea cos chaos really needs more of this plus its the plague champ also which I sure the pc alone counter melee also chaos has lots of ways to not only deal with melee but outright beat any race In melee plus add plague champ and yea chaos/pc don't need cpm

[Tinibombini]

I guess I should have been clearer. They fill a redundant role in counter-initiation and they do it in a really silly way of being OP. They also fill the role that Noobus mentioned, which is even worse - the super damage sponge.

I still maintain that they are not needed and it would be better if they were never added. I think the best that can be said for them is that they look cool.

This is coming from a PC main so it's not as if I am salty about their performance against me.

[Black Relic]

Honestly i liked plague of undeath premise because it \had you solidify a winning engagement by turning their dead against them. But I dont think it really got the use as it was intended for.


I would like it to come back but have a few changes. First being that the zombies last a tad bit longer. And that the global affects all infantry turning your own loses into zombies. Would make it quite harder to push the PC. My only think would be that heretic that are turn to zombies under this global would have to lose doomblast since the damage spike could be ridiculous.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Plague of Undeath had too much problems.
1. Spawned increase the Chaos upkeep the time they are in the field.
2. Spawned units are un-upgraded lvl 1 units. Isn't the same a EW TCSM zombie than a regular CSM.
3. Spawned units last too little.

And that without mention the balance reasons, like being not worthwhile at all when you have ToN which costed less, have inmediate effect and great synergy with Heretics.

[Black Relic]

1. Could be fixed but it would be tedious since it would require making a copy for each model in the game that does not have upkeep.
2. True, then i would say make the zombies immune to damage for a time (5 seconds) and when they die from the duration have it either knockback and damage enemies or knockback enemies and heal allies.
3. Could be increased but that would also be tedious because it would require going to each and every model to change the duration. I would like it to be like a 15-20 seconds duration if we came back to this global.


It could revive the PC if he is down as well. I find that when the PC gets downed i have a hard time in 1v1. But hey that's my 1 cent.

ToN was always a good global and i think is to strong on tics. But I think I also want to try and give this global another go at giving it another reason to exist. Like making it a bit of a comeback mechanic when an engagement starts off poorly. IDK i think i could see this being a cool niche global.