why guardian weapon team speed 5.5?

[karnakkardak]

For Equipoise, speed decrease 5.0 (other faction's setup team speed 5.0 while guardian weapon team has speed 5.5)

As we know setup team used for defensive play not offensive. But eldar can use aggresive guardian weapon team because of their speed.

Its something unfair.

[Kvn]

Why do Devs/Havocs have heavy infantry armor and melee resist? Why to IG heavy weapons teams have additional members? Why can Lootas infiltrate?

They're different setup teams used for different reasons in different factions. If you want to nerf them, you need to look at them in the context of their faction. Eldar are faster because speed is their biggest asset in addition to their damage output. Other setups have other advantages.

[karnakkardak]

Why do Devs/Havocs have heavy infantry armor and melee resist? Why to IG heavy weapons teams have additional members? Why can Lootas infiltrate?

They're different setup teams used for different reasons in different factions. If you want to nerf them, you need to look at them in the context of their faction. Eldar are faster because speed is their biggest asset in addition to their damage output. Other setups have other advantages.

I have no nerf intended, just only for equaility.

And more say, suriken speed at 5.5 give them strategy gain (ease to aggresive setting-push forward)+ highest dps any one setup team in tier 1;it is tactical gain & eldar gwt's Feature)
but other setup team's add fuction give only tactic gain (dev/havoc melee resi&armor, ig hwt 6 member- can excute, loota can stealth;itself a little to use strategic but counterable to detecter.)

[Kvn]

I have no nerf intended

You're asking that it be made worse by lowering its speed. That is a nerf.

just only for equaility.

Then should we change all setup teams to have exactly the same traits across the board? No. Of course not. That's a silly balance decision because they do different things for different armies.

And more say, suriken speed at 5.5 give them strategy gain (ease to aggresive setting-push forward)+ highest dps any one setup team in tier 1;it is tactical gain & eldar gwt's Feature)
but other setup team's add fuction give only tactic gain (dev/havoc melee resi&armor, ig hwt 6 member- can excute, loota can stealth;itself a little to use strategic but counterable to detecter.)

GWT are supposed to be one of the best (read; slightly better than average) suppression teams because Eldar rely on them so heavily. The only other option Eldar have in T1.5 is Rangers, who are situational at the best of times. In addition, they have a weaker upgrade in the Brightlance which has no av snare, a less desirable damage pattern than the Lascannon/Beamy, and have the double edged sword of a die-last weapon platform (it doesn't get de-setup by ranged fire, but is easier to wipe with melee).

Look at it this way. The GWT has a higher move-speed to compliment the Eldar strategy. Eldar can't win defensive fights. It goes against the design of the race. They have to stay mobile to react to different threats, and be able to cut across the map so that they can hit the opponent where it hurts. That's why all Eldar infantry has 5.5 movespeed or higher. To nerf GWT to be in line with other setup teams for "equality" sake is to ignore the basic facets of the race.

[Oddnerd]

What do you mean when you say equality? All units be identical? Why bother having multiple races in this game then?

The eldar setup team is faster and has better range, that is its advantage. Chaos/SM setups have HI armour and melee res, ork setup teams have infiltrate and better close-range damage, and IG HWTs suck ass all around as a way of punishing them for the T2 refractor upgrade. That is how it is designed.

[Cyris]

and IG HWTs suck ass all around as a way of punishing them for the T2 refractor upgrade.

This text is only so this response is more then an image macro.

[Oddnerd]

Whenever I bring up the slow teardown time of HWTs (combined with having 5 other guys who often run off to shoot people with their lasguns and get caught in melee), the responses usually boil down to "something something refractor field".

[Aguxyz]

you forgot to mention that shuris can set up a lot faster than the others

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

IG doesn't need a great sup team. They can move forward easily without one and hold ground.

Las HWT is also heavy amounts of bullshit.

[Adeptus Noobus]

In my opinion the GWT is fine for the reasons KVN laid out. Eldar rely heavily on the mobility and performance overall of the GWT and are quite fragile without it.
I am somewhat amused though that the HWT gets a pass here by karnakkardak when it's clearly the strongest setup team in the game at the moment (even with the increased susceptibility to AoE dmg) even borderline overpowered considering what the shield and IGs reinforcing capabilities bring to the table.

P.S: I always thought of Power Armor to be a double edged sword for setup teams as their counters usually have some anti-heavy-infantry option going for them (Stormboys, Rangers, ASM/Raptors come T2, grenades).

[Adeptus Noobus]

Las HWT is also heavy amounts of bullshit.

I'd like to add the Beamy Loota Mekboy with Kustom Forcefield to the list. At least you can counter a shielded Las HWT.

[Aguxyz]

doesn't the shuri itself have HI armor? could of sworn someone said that before

[Ace of Swords]

doesn't the shuri itself have HI armor? could of sworn someone said that before

yeah it has, the members are normal infantry though.

[Fr33man1800]

Whenever I bring up the slow teardown time of HWTs (combined with having 5 other guys who often run off to shoot people with their lasguns and get caught in melee), the responses usually boil down to "something something refractor field".

IG HWT is ULTRA broken ATM , It has shitloads of HP in t1 , amazing refractor field in t2 and overall broken autocanons. Not to menction with 6x members you make it easier to execute and medipacs are even more efective now. Also now if you garrison them a single grenade wont kill most of the time a single member making it incredibly stupid to force off garrisons. Lastly considering the high HP and super quick reinforcement rate , now if you have the eco and reinforcement not even 2x fully upgraded raptor squads can kill them with reinforcement if they are fully upgraded.

So yeah.... basically very strong in t1 with LC and LG , and broken in t2. Especially considering all the IG bufs and reinforcement options. Highest AV as well. IMO 6 member IG HWT needs to be nerfed like now its batshit broken if you ask me.

With all that said I do think some setup teams clearly over perform other the rest so could be worthwhile to take a look and make slight changes if need be.

[_4ut_]

IMO 6 member IG HWT needs to be nerfed like now its batshit broken if you ask me.

IG dont haw to mach. In 1v1 game its always battle for survival, besides vs SM. More members of HWT also his weakness against area based weapons.
For example, you can say that DA Exarch and his ability to break suppress and protect aura, that's fine, but then he knocks down in male it's already too much.

[Fr33man1800]

IMO 6 member IG HWT needs to be nerfed like now its batshit broken if you ask me.

IG dont haw to mach. In 1v1 game its always battle for survival, besides vs SM. More members of HWT also his weakness against area based weapons.
For example, you can say that DA Exarch and his ability to break suppress and protect aura, that's fine, but then he knocks down in male it's already too much.

Yes that sounds good in theory but just try and get close with flamers to a setup teams see if you even get 1 volley off. I get what you say and its true now they are more vulnerable to the already hard counters to setup teams like autarch , imolator , WG etc... But only vs races that have those tools, else its just mega retarded and it should be changed precisely also because of that.

[_4ut_]

But only vs races that have those tools, else its just mega retarded and it should be changed precisely also because of that.

And do you propose to make them weaker to another part of the race, at a time when they will be less likely to IG? I do not understand this. With your skill and perhaps this is obvious, but ordinary players will fill anover pain from this nerf.

Yes that sounds good in theory but just try and get close with flamers to a setup teams.

Easy way. At IG mirror as LG "Stand Firm" abiliti and burn HWT. Of course better 2 flamer GM. And in my low player opinion. 2 flame GM its beter choice from orks, nids, ig and eldar in 1v1. And by the way eldar shuriken do not care for flamers, eavy armor and it should not be nerft.

[Forestradio]

2 flame GM its beter choice from orks, nids, ig and eldar in 1v1

Provide replays or examples of this then, because I don't recall a single high level IG player doing this and most say that flamer gm only exist in 3 gm BOs to have one squad bash and cap.

And against nids and eldar you 100% want plasma guns.

For the rest see Fr33man's post. And listen to him, he is one of the best IG still actually active in this gaem.

On topic: shuries are mostly fine.

[Oddnerd]

I am very suspicious of your GM flamer counter to setups. With their range of 24, a flamer is in the medium range damage category of a HWT, which means their damage is bumped up to 375 per hit (~280dps). At that range you are gonna get smoked before your flamers can whittle down a HWT.

[_4ut_]

I am very suspicious of your GM flamer counter to setups. With their range of 24, a flamer is in the medium range damage category of a HWT, which means their damage is bumped up to 375 per hit (~280dps). At that range you are gonna get smoked before your flamers can whittle down a HWT.

Noup. 2GM + Stand Firm + Move! Move! Move! and I'm not saying that this is a hard counter of setup teams, but it is possible against infantry armor.

[_4ut_]

2 flame GM its beter choice from orks, nids, ig and eldar in 1v1

Provide replays or examples of this then, because I don't recall a single high level IG player doing this and most say that flamer gm only exist in 3 gm BOs to have one squad bash and cap.

http://rgho.st/7jMxN9c9R - 1v1
http://rgho.st/7sHgQChpK - 3v3
Flame GMs do a lot of work.

And against nids and eldar you 100% want plasma guns.

Againtst nids yes, but why they are against the Eldar? Outshoot Wraithguard? Realy? Or firedragon focus? Is it just for that.

For the rest see Fr33man's post. And listen to him, he is one of the best IG still actually active in this gaem.

I now what Fr33mans is best. I watch casts with him for a long time. But problem is, what iam not a best player, and many other players too.
And if you offer nerf IG for the reason that Freeman plays so well, and everyone else go to shit. Its bulschit.

\

[Adeptus Noobus]

2 flame GM its beter choice from orks, nids, ig and eldar in 1v1

Provide replays or examples of this then, because I don't recall a single high level IG player doing this and most say that flamer gm only exist in 3 gm BOs to have one squad bash and cap.

http://rgho.st/7jMxN9c9R - 1v1
http://rgho.st/7sHgQChpK - 3v3
Flame GMs do a lot of work.

And against nids and eldar you 100% want plasma guns.

Againtst nids yes, but why they are against the Eldar? Outshoot Wraithguard? Realy? Or firedragon focus? Is it just for that.

For the rest see Fr33man's post. And listen to him, he is one of the best IG still actually active in this gaem.

I now what Fr33mans is best. I watch casts with him for a long time. But problem is, what iam not a best player, and many other players too.
And if you offer nerf IG for the reason that Freeman plays so well, and everyone else go to shit. Its bulschit.

\

Wraithguard are the biggest threat to IG that Eldar have so investing in Plasma Guns is worth it.

Actually it makes a lot of sense to balance the game around the best players as they are the ones who can play a faction to their limits and can show you what that faction can do and can't do. Skill must always be a determining factor in balance discussions. If e.g. Freeman says IG can't counter unit X then it is more likely to be true because he knows their entire arsenal and combinations and will have tried them first before claiming imba whereas lower level players do not know ALL the options and will claim imba much earlier.

[Vindicarex]

Cuz balance?

Oh - and power armor is really more of a negative on weapons teams than an advantage.

Suppression teams usually have no problem dealing with ranged units - that's their job. So the extra damage reduction they get vs most ranged units is largely meaningless.

On the other hand, they take more damage from melee, power melee, and explosives (grenades) - all ideal counters to set up teams. It's FAR BETTER to have extra speed to kite than to have useless power armor and have marginal differences in set up times.

Is it any wonder why Eldar players spam shuricannon cannons as meta?

[Vindicarex]

Provide replays or examples of this then, because I don't recall a single high level IG player doing this and most say that flamer gm only exist in 3 gm BOs to have one squad bash and cap.

http://rgho.st/7jMxN9c9R - 1v1
http://rgho.st/7sHgQChpK - 3v3
Flame GMs do a lot of work.

And against nids and eldar you 100% want plasma guns.

Againtst nids yes, but why they are against the Eldar? Outshoot Wraithguard? Realy? Or firedragon focus? Is it just for that.

For the rest see Fr33man's post. And listen to him, he is one of the best IG still actually active in this gaem.

I now what Fr33mans is best. I watch casts with him for a long time. But problem is, what iam not a best player, and many other players too.
And if you offer nerf IG for the reason that Freeman plays so well, and everyone else go to shit. Its bulschit.

\

Wraithguard are the biggest threat to IG that Eldar have so investing in Plasma Guns is worth it.

Actually it makes a lot of sense to balance the game around the best players as they are the ones who can play a faction to their limits and can show you what that faction can do and can't do. Skill must always be a determining factor in balance discussions. If e.g. Freeman says IG can't counter unit X then it is more likely to be true because he knows their entire arsenal and combinations and will have tried them first before claiming imba whereas lower level players do not know ALL the options and will claim imba much earlier.

I agree, but with that being said not a lot of really good players remain in this puny community.