A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Oddnerd
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A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 9:51 pm

Hi all,

I almost never buy kasrkins, and I rarely see people voicing positive opinions of them. Some people like to purchase their grenade launcher purely for its passive knockback, but as far as I remember, any time a high-skill IG player has talked about kasrkin plasma guns, it has been generally negative. I did some number crunching to show a comparison between plasma GM squads and Kasrkins - the comparison includes damage output from the plasma weapons as well as the piercing damage weapons in the squad.

Here is a comparison of a GM (+ Sarge +Plasma) vs Kasrkins (+Plasma)

GM Squad:
Cost - 385/25
Reinforce - 17 for 2 guys (8.5/model)
HP - 940 inf armour

Total ranged damage output vs HI/SHI - 52.9/44.16 dps

Kasrkin Squad:
Cost - 515/90
Reinforce - 46/6
HP - 1375 HI armour

Total ranged damage output vs HI/SHI - 75.4/61 dps

Here is a comparison of a fully upgraded Plasma GM vs a fully upgraded plasma Kasrkin

GM Squad:
Cost - 470/45
Reinforce - 17 for 3 guys (5.6/model)
HP - 1280 inf armour

Total ranged damage output vs HI/SHI - 68.9/51.3 dps

Kasrkin Squad:
Cost - 595/115
Reinforce - 46/6
HP - 1675 HI armour

Total ranged damage output vs HI/SHI - 86.4/66 dps

Looking at these numbers, I can see why people prefer a GM squad. Kasrkin do quite a bit more damage against HI, and slightly more against SHI; however, this does not seem to be in proportion to their increased requisition cost, significantly higher power cost, and their expensive reinforcement cost. The GM have less hp total, but have infantry armour rather than HI armour (HI often is an impediment late game), and are significantly cheaper to replace when models are lost. All-in-all, the kasrkin squad is superior, but not at all in proportion to it's much higher cost, imo. I feel as though the only selling point kasrkin have which GM do not have is their superior melee dps (50.15 dps for GM, 86.15 dps for Kasrkin) and their sprint, which would allow them to assail weaker ranged units such as setup teams in close combat; however, by tier 3, I am really not looking for a ranged unit that can perform this function (if I want a melee unit to tie down or disrupt ranged units, I will get ogryns). A ranged unit that can rush into melee and tie down setup teams would be great in T1/T2, but come T3, it just isn't something I want to spend a lot of resources on.

What are other people's thoughts on plasma kasrkins? Is there ever a good time to get them instead of a plasma GM squad?

I didn't include the full details of how the damage values were calculated because I didn't want the post to be too visually dense, but I can if someone wants.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Nurland » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 10:43 pm

Main issue with plasma Kasrkin is their range. Reason why Kasrkin are decent is the good range of the hellguns. This gets negated by the plasma guns.

The Sarge is also probably slightly overpriced.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Phoenix » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 5:12 am

In my opinion there is not much point in comparing GM to Kasrkin since they fulfill different tasks in the IG composition.

GM are the AI range DPS backbone of your army, they repair (pretty important aspect you left out completely!) and they can soak up damage via their cheap reinforcement (to a certain degree).

Kasrkin on the other hand at some point were GM on crack that outright melted stuff from range but Cael changed them to be a different unit. Now they have less DPS (~ Stormtrooper DPS) but are way more self-sufficient with their 5.5 speed, sprint ability, higher courage than average, 50% faster capping trait and 2 types of grenades which makes them a decent side capping unit to maintain map control in later stages of the game (something IG can struggle with).
That being said Kasrkin are still rather niche since they are a T3 unit and when IG have the resources/time to tech up to t3 they usually want Lemans.

When coming from a teamgame perspective though, I can see why people find them to be lackluster.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby karnakkardak » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 12:58 pm

Karskin is higher cost. But they have grenade, speedrun skill, and slighty tuff.
But plasma gun karskin dosent cost-effective than granade laucher karskin(constant neckback really good to defend VP. And they can perfect disrupt setup team&anti vehicle unit for thearthen leman russ.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby egewithin » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 4:53 pm

Plasma Kasrikin must do higher damage. Why? They are doing lightly more damage than a Tac plasma?

Because in T3, all units are leveled up and we need much better performance than current. They are anti-armour you know, you gonna counter Terminators and shit. You MUST do higher damage.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 13 Jul, 2016 5:39 pm

firatwithin wrote:Plasma Kasrikin must do higher damage. Why? They are doing lightly more damage than a Tac plasma?

Because in T3, all units are leveled up and we need much better performance than current. They are anti-armour you know, you gonna counter Terminators and shit. You MUST do higher damage.


For balance's sake, I don't think other player's unit being leveled up should be a consideration. Balance between units should not factor in level assumptions (imo).

However, I agree with the second part of your argument - when T3 rolls around, as an IG player, I am looking for a unit that has very high DPS/cost, compared with most of the IG's roster which is focused on damage soaking and attrition. If am looking for raw piercing DPS I can get STs in T2 (great against seer councils and PM/CPM), but if I want a unit that packs a big punch against HI/SHI, I want a unit that has exceptional plasma/inferno/melta damage. In the case of plasma kasrkins, they don't have the range advantage as Nurland pointed out, nor do they have exceptional damage. A kasrkin plasma gun has twice the damage of a GM plasma gun and the same firing pattern; since kasrkin get 2 guns and GM get 3, this means that buying the kasrkin plasma guns adds only 33% more plasma DPS than buying the GM plasma. The extra piercing DPS is nice and very respectable, but against SHI it means very little.

Overall, I just feel that the improved melee damage, the sprint, and the fact that most members of the squad still do piercing DPS after buying the plasma guns means that Kasrkin don't provide what most people are looking for when they reach T3, let alone enough to warrant buying kasrkin instead of a russ (or if you want piercing damage, some STs).
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Codex » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 12:19 pm

Oddnerd wrote:For balance's sake, I don't think other player's unit being leveled up should be a consideration. Balance between units should not factor in level assumptions (imo).


I don't strictly agree with this principle... for example, a big part of KCSM's strength is that often they come in at level 2 or higher, which gives them superior melee skill and hence performance against opponent's fresh 70 melee skill squads. Consider the effect that levels would have, but obviously in balance with all relevant factors.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby egewithin » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:40 pm

Tested some Kasrikin a few days ago. Went for 2 of them.

-Couldn't kill any SM models with double plasma guns.

-Cound't even be a threat for a Techmarine with shield. He just tanked all of it. Even double GM performs much better.

-Their melee improvment has no use in late game.

And about their vanillia guns. They miss a lot. Like Storm Troopers. No, not IG Storm Troopers, I say Star Wars Storm Troopers. Because of that, their vanillia guns are useless. I told you I couldn't be a threat for a buble shield with 2 of them.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:43 pm

firatwithin wrote:Tested some Kasrikin a few days ago. Went for 2 of them.

-Couldn't kill any SM models with double plasma guns.

-Cound't even be a threat for a Techmarine with shield. He just tanked all of it. Even double GM performs much better.

-Their melee improvment has no use in late game.

And about their vanillia guns. They miss a lot. Like Storm Troopers. No, not IG Storm Troopers, I say Star Wars Storm Troopers. Because of that, their vanillia guns are useless. I told you I couldn't be a threat for a buble shield with 2 of them.


You realize the TM shield has a built-in 20% reduced accuracy right?
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby egewithin » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:44 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
firatwithin wrote:Tested some Kasrikin a few days ago. Went for 2 of them.

-Couldn't kill any SM models with double plasma guns.

-Cound't even be a threat for a Techmarine with shield. He just tanked all of it. Even double GM performs much better.

-Their melee improvment has no use in late game.

And about their vanillia guns. They miss a lot. Like Storm Troopers. No, not IG Storm Troopers, I say Star Wars Storm Troopers. Because of that, their vanillia guns are useless. I told you I couldn't be a threat for a buble shield with 2 of them.


You realize the TM shield has a built-in 20% reduced accuracy right?


Oh shit. Sorry.

But still, my results on Tacs are true right? :D
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:48 pm

firatwithin wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:
firatwithin wrote:Tested some Kasrikin a few days ago. Went for 2 of them.

-Couldn't kill any SM models with double plasma guns.

-Cound't even be a threat for a Techmarine with shield. He just tanked all of it. Even double GM performs much better.

-Their melee improvment has no use in late game.

And about their vanillia guns. They miss a lot. Like Storm Troopers. No, not IG Storm Troopers, I say Star Wars Storm Troopers. Because of that, their vanillia guns are useless. I told you I couldn't be a threat for a buble shield with 2 of them.


You realize the TM shield has a built-in 20% reduced accuracy right?


Oh shit. Sorry.

But still, my results on Tacs are true right? :D


Those should be yeah.
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Re: A Numerical Comparison of Plasma GMs vs Plasma Kasrkins

Postby Psycho » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 11:06 pm

firatwithin wrote:But still, my results on Tacs are true right? :D


Plasma guardsmen can also be deceptively strong specifically because they're weak per model. Remember that if, hypothetically speaking, one plasma guardsman model dies a millisecond after shooting, the next guardsman that gets a plasma gun can shoot immediately, so that's two shots for one, not to take into account that the shots before reloading also get reset. So kasrkin don't get that 'trait' since they're a wee bit harder to kill. Not like you'd even care about lasgun guardsmen against HI.

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