Veterans...

[The Bad Road]

I was looking through the Codex when I noticed the Sternguard and Vanguard marine upgrades, that makes me wonder if perhaps a few other units could use "veteran" upgrades. Here is one such veteran, for chaos.

Traitors

Parent unit: Heretics

Upgrade cost and tier: It costs 60 requisition and 20 power to purchase this upgrade at tier 2.

Limit: You can only have one squad of traitors at a time, a traitor squad can only be upgraded from a basic heretic squad with no upgrades.

Statistics: Traitors have the same statistics as normal heretics with no upgrades but a speed of 5.5 and a vision of 6.

Effects: Traitors gain an energy pool of 100 points and have the stealth ability as per scout marines, in addition they have a modified doomblast (with no energy cost) based upon the chaos hero chosen. They lose worship effects and the repair skill, instead gaining the Sabotage skill.

Sacrifice to Khorne: Doomblast now deals 30 flame damage in radius 12 and summons a temporary and uncontrolled bloodletter (this effect replaces suppression).

Sacrifice to Tzeentch: Doomblast now deals 30 plasma damage in addition to suppressing all within a radius 12.

Sacrifice to Nurgle: Doomblast now heals 15 hp to allies within a radius 8 and deals 25 explosive damage to enemies within radius 12 in addition to suppressing them.

Sabotage: The traitors can deploy an improvised anti vehicle explosive with a range of 20 that deals 50 explosive damage and immobilizes the vehicle for five seconds, this explosive has an activation time equal to a melta bomb. Cooldown 60 seconds, energy 50.

Goal: Traitors are a ganker alternative to normal heretics that give chaos a true stealth unit, capable of scouting, dealing with setup teams and helping in vehicle hunting.

So here's a sample, tell me if it should be deployed, modified or cast back into Nurgle's gullet. Come up with your own veteran upgrades (the guard could use a few).

[karnakkardak]

Chaos already strong. Dont make SUPER op.

[The Bad Road]

What is specifically wrong with them Karn? You have to point out what's OP (perhaps they are simply too cheap for what they do) before anyone can have a go at bringing them in line.

And another veteran while I'm at it, this one for the Imperial Guard.

Bone 'ead Squad

Parent unit: Ogryn Squad

Upgrade cost and tier: 175 requisition and 30 power, tier 3.

Limit: One at at time.

Statistics: The Bone 'ead Squad is the same animal you can find replacing Lord Bern as an honor guard in the retribution campaign.

Effects: Same as the Bone 'ead Squad from retribution minus any bonuses's from Bern's traits.

Goal: The Bone 'ead squad is meant to be a "super breacher" in the same vein as the Nob Squad minus the invulnerability and squad leader. They are for tying up heavy units like Nob and Terminators Squads or for going after setup teams that would otherwise be tank hunting.

The other pro: As they are already in the campaign they would be a minimal fuss to bring into the elite mod.

Is this a better veteran unit Korn?

[Adeptus Noobus]

Sacrifice to Khorne: Doomblast now deals 30 flame damage in radius 12 and summons a temporary and uncontrolled bloodletter (this effect replaces suppression).

Sacrifice to Tzeentch: Doomblast now deals 30 plasma damage in addition to suppressing all within a radius 12.

Sacrifice to Nurgle: Doomblast now heals 15 hp to allies within a radius 8 and deals 25 explosive damage to enemies within radius 12 in addition to suppressing them.

Let's keep in mind that they cost only 250/20 and can now infiltrate and deal quite a large amount of damage (albeit the reinforcement now costs you power).
Sacrifice to Khorne granting you a Bloodletter (event if it is uncontrollable) is just too strong and would stand in direct competition with the Blood Sacrifice global even though that spawns a whole squad and you can control them. In addition imagine them now fighting a heavy infantry squad. You have replaced the plasma dmg with flame dmg but gained another form of anti-hi dmg in the form of a bloodletter.
Sacrifice to Tzeentch is now a 100% buff to the normal Doomblast. Keep in mind that plasma damage deals extra damage to heavy infantry so the buff is even stronger.
Sacrifice to Nurgle is just a mini touch of nurgle and that is clearly not a good idea. Touch of Nurgle is already subject of so many balance complaints. Since Nurgle shrines reinforce when worshipped, you could have endless healing power with your traitor heretics and endless knockback. This form of sacrifice is by far the most powerfull and broken one. The globals costs 175 red for a reason.

Sabotage: The traitors can deploy an improvised anti vehicle explosive with a range of 20 that deals 50 explosive damage and immobilizes the vehicle for five seconds, this explosive has an activation time equal to a melta bomb. Cooldown 60 seconds, energy 50.

Goal: Traitors are a ganker alternative to normal heretics that give chaos a true stealth unit, capable of scouting, dealing with setup teams and helping in vehicle hunting.

This one is just outright broken. First of all Chaos does not need a snare for vehicles or any buff to their already super crazy AV capabilities (Lascannon, Plague Marines, Autocannons, MoT Dreadnought - two of them already snare). And we are not even talking about a snare but a disable out of infiltration. Stormtroopers may be able to do the same but they cost a lot more and can do a lot less.

Your new squad can do all the above and that for just 20 power and 60 req = 250/20 in total. Scouts cost more and can still only dream of ever becoming such a high impact unit. Them losing worship effects (which are just replaced) and repair skill means nothing because for just 190 req you can get another squad that will do just that.

P.S: You forgot to mention, why Chaos needs this unit at all. It's not like they are lacking in any of the areas that Traitors would cover. You always need to explain why faction X needs buff/unit Y. Other than that, good job on your post.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Concerning your veteran Ogryns: I do not know what traits Bern grants but Ogryns are already a very good line breaker unit if supported well by the respective hero. Infiltration, Execution and Speed buffs make them very scary already if they come charging from your flank. Ogryns do not need any more buffs.

[Black Maw]

As awesome as it sounds to have Tics exploding all over the place in pretty colours, it's very complicated, would probably be tricky to balance and isn't really all that necessary. Tics are now a cannon fodder and utility unit - their damage dealing days are pretty much behind them. Any serious damage at least.

If you feel like Tics don't perform so well after the nerfs then i'd go over to the thread titled 'Tics need to give less xp' and discuss. A few people have suggested that they regain their former stats on purchase of the AC, which seems more reasonable.

If i had to pick a unit to have a veteran option from the chaos line-up, it would be the Bloodcrusher. Silly amounts of single target damage but so little health and no upgrades makes it too fragile to use in T3. At least if you want to stay in combat long enough to deal any worth while damage in a big battle. But i digress, it would also be another totally unecessary addition to the game.

Still, i like the way you think

[Adeptus Noobus]

Bloodcrushers cost 250/60 and benefit from worship. They have a charge and the ability to scare off any unit apart from vehicles. Let's please not give Chaos any Veteran unit. You fail to mention why they need it in the first place.

[egewithin]

I can acccept different exploding colours on Heretics but I can not tolerate any of this nonsense. These are just for eye candy, totally balance breaking.

[Black Maw]

But i digress, it would also be another totally unnecessary addition to the game.

Yes, i realise how a Bloodcrusher works Noobus, i'm merely lightly touching on how in 2v2s and 3v3s they can go down extremely quickly when you could have other units that do the same job with less fragility. Please don't jump down my throat, it was not a serious suggestion or a claim that they are UP or that Chaos need a veteran unit.

Still, gotta give props for creativity.

[Oddnerd]

Even though some of these upgrades seem cool, these decisions are only made for the sake of balance.

I would love a bullgryn upgrade for my ogryns, but I don't think that is sufficient for Elite mod to create one.

[The Bad Road]

Thanks for the info Noobus

Alright a rework for the Traitors, this time as a ranged support unit...

Traitors

Parent unit: Heretics

Upgrade cost and tier: It costs 110 requisition and 30 power to purchase this upgrade at tier 2.

Limit: You can only have one squad of traitors at a time, a traitor squad can only be upgraded from a basic heretic squad or a heretic squad with only the Aspiring Champion upgrade.

Statistics: Traitors have the same statistics as normal heretics with no upgrades but with different weapons.

Weapons: Traitors use ig guardsmen lasgun (https://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php ... men_lasgun) and ig_guardsmen_fist (https://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php ... dsmen_fist).

Effects: Traitors gain two special passive ability depending on the chaos hero chosen, this replaces their parent unit's worship abilities and repair abilities.

Blood for the Blood God (Chaos Lord)! For each kill the traitors make they and all friendly units within 25 radius gain a 2% bonus to damage dealt and a -1 bonus to damage received, this effect lasts for fifteen seconds per kill and can stack up to five times.

Favor of Khorne: This unit takes 25% less damage from melee weapons.

Ephemeral shot (Chaos Sorcerer): The traitors do not receive a penalty to ranged damage when their target is engaged with another unit in melee combat.

Favor of Tzeentch: Traitors have a sight of 6.5 instead of 5.

Plague flies (Plague Champion): Traitors are engulfed in a shroud of plague flies, receiving -20 less ranged damage from all sources.

Favor of Nurgle: Traitors have their courage boosted to 200.

Goal: Traitors are designed to universally enhance the ranged capabilities of Chaos, they are also designed to be a less powerful but more mobile and active support unit then normal heretics.

Subgoals:

Chaos Lord: Khorne traitors are designed to bolster the rest of the army, giving them that extra push to make them excel while being able to survive (at least initially) melee combat.

Chaos Sorcerer: Tzeentch traitors are deliberately designed to synergize with rapid/teleporting units like the Sorcerer, Bloodletters/Chaos Raptors and the Bloodcrusher, making these tactics both more accurate (via favor of Tzeentch) and more hard hitting (via Ephemeral shot).

Plague Champion: Nurgle traitors are designed to hold positions with ease and seize them even when facing suppression fire.

Modeling notes: Traitors apart from the Champion should look like a more ragged, spiky version of the normal guardsmen squad.

Why should chaos have these guys running around? To breath a little fresh air into chaos strategy, giving Chaos just a little bit more unpredictability.

So is this a better veteran guys?

Bone 'eads: I get it guys you don't want em.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Blood for the Blood God (Chaos Lord)! For each kill the traitors make they and all friendly units within 25 radius gain a 2% bonus to damage dealt and a -1 bonus to damage received, this effect lasts for fifteen seconds per kill and can stack up to five times.

Favor of Khorne: This unit takes 25% less damage from melee weapons.

This is a mini bloodlust which could spiral out of control very fast depending on the dps values of the lasguns. Chaos already has this feature. Now the damage resistance would hopefully not stack with their already existing melee resistance because that would otherwise add up to 65% melee damage mitigation which is nuts.

Ephemeral shot (Chaos Sorcerer): The traitors do not receive a penalty to ranged damage when their target is engaged with another unit in melee combat.

Favor of Tzeentch: Traitors have a sight of 6.5 instead of 5.

That is actually a huge deal. If I remember correctly being tied up in melee grants a 30-40% damage reduction from ranged weapons. Taking that away is quite the huge buff to their ranged weapons (depending on their ranged dps). The keen sight radius increase is really not significant because if they have the Aspiring Champion, they already have a bigger detection radius than that. Unless you mean weapons sight radius which would mean that they are virtually blind and can't do anything on their own...

Plague flies (Plague Champion): Traitors are engulfed in a shroud of plague flies, receiving -20 less ranged damage from all sources.

Favor of Nurgle: Traitors have their courage boosted to 200.

I am being reminded of Fire Dragons here with the Dragon Scale Armor they used to have. Is this supposed to be 20% or a raw 20 damage value?

Goal: Traitors are designed to universally enhance the ranged capabilities of Chaos, they are also designed to be a less powerful but more mobile and active support unit then normal heretics.

And that is why I can't jump onto the support waggon for this unit. Chaos does not need it at all. Their ranged capabilities are already very effective and borderline OP (thinking Autocannons and Plague Marines here). I see you want to add options for possible Chaos builds but the thing is, they first need to lose some of their anti-all capabilities before such a unit should even be considered.

[The Bad Road]

It would seem traitors are a no go...

So how about another veteran for the Imperial Guard...Emperor knows they need it.

Cadian Shocktroops

Parent unit: Guardsmen Squad

Upgrade cost and tier: It costs 115 requisition and 15 power to purchase this upgrade at tier 3.

Limit: Effectively "none", although their reinforcement cost is doubled and they do not benefit from the free reinforcement bonuses given by the Sergeant and the Commissar.

Statistics: Cadian Shocktroops have 20% more hp per model then a normal guardsmen squad, deal 10% more ranged damage per model and have a courage score of 200 instead of 100.

Weapons: Cadian Shocktroops have the same weapons (plus the 10% ranged damage boost) of a normal guardsmen squad, however if they have the flamer or plasma gun upgrade they receive an additional two copies of the weapon to their squad, bringing the total to 6 flamers/plasma guns per squad.

Effects: Cadian Shocktroops still retain the repair skills and if they possess the Commissar the execute ability.

Notes: This is a very deliberate upgrade, designed to replace the Karkskin effectively. Why you ask? Because the Karkskin doesn't see enough use to justify his existence as a unit, the tanks are the only things the IG player will want to crank out come tier 3 both because of time and resources. This at least cuts down on time, making them a more attractive option to Karkskin.

Role: Cadian Shocktroops are effectively designed to perform three roles for the guard, taking ground from suppression fire, supporting tanks and hunting down super heavy infantry such as terminators. In exchange however they are more expensive then guardsmen to reinforce and do not benefit from the ability to get 1-2 free models per reinforcement.

Have I found a winner Noobus?

[Atlas]

I don't really see a reason for them considering we have Cadian Kasrkins already. These kind of veteran upgrades would be more viable units that are pretty weak and don't scale at all. There's really not that many units like that imo.