teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
karnakkardak
Level 2
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed 01 Oct, 2014 9:18 am

teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Postby karnakkardak » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 1:28 pm

noticed: mostly "elite army"=SM,CSM/ "horde army"=ORKS, IG, NID/ i said in this post

i dont know how NA/EUROPE player feeling balance, BUT most korean player (such as me), heavy infantry army too strong against horde, and people tired situation which elite army spammed like 3 csm, 3 sm, 2 sm+1 csm, etc. and i believe this ELITE MODS for balance. and i know who still in play retribution does not play this mod because balance broken down for another reason.

team game balance in elite mod, honesty, totally wrecked and need to be fix immediately

and so why balance breakdown and how can fix it? HERE are my suggestion

1. upkeep system change to "every faction ease to gathering requsition" more than retribution.
personally i think upkeep down itself dosent bad, BUT the problem is elite army spammed unit this mod too easy & they can push hard in tier 1 beacause they dont beware requsiton starvation. and this accesable elite army recovery their army stregnth even they wiped their major&core unit.

- 1st suggestion: increase upkeep SM, CSM' tier 1 unit(sergent too). they too economical when tier 1 unit compounded.

2nd suggestion: plasma devastator&blastmaster wargear in noise marine DMG or RANGE nerf

no need to say about them, really devastating so horde cannot deal with. and some people use this like siege tank so forced them to come their defense lane. and horde have no tankly unit before tier 3(considering their armor type, other unit's help etc. and with so other element composition in 1v1 lane fight horde rerely crushed defended elite army's lane), they bleed over so much resource and time.


3. AOE skill damage type- why so much skill still have 'flame' damage type ?

this is "sentense to death" for horde. whatever relic's intend(horde army counter, presentation 40K miniature game), its unreasonable, and FUCK them. (dont say move/control ur squad. exactly i say about game design for team game balance.) aoe skill should be focusing wiped not only to horde but also heavy infantry army.

3rd suggestion: flame type aoe skill at now change dmg type to "plasma" type. this will aoe skill doesnt countering horde, but also useful to elite army. (AT LEAST, nurgle cloud should be change immediately becasue they r WTF mobile aoe skill.)

after i upload this,maybe some SM/CSM fanboys blame me just "u dare nerf opinion to my favorite faction?! NOOOOOOO" expected. but what i want to say, "this mod for balance not ur overpowered faction simulator.
User avatar
The Licking Boogyman
Level 3
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu 23 Jun, 2016 7:51 pm

Re: teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 6:05 pm

team game balance in elite mod, honesty, totally wrecked and need to be fix immediately

and so why balance breakdown and how can fix it? HERE are my suggestion


git gud :), most times it just depends on the skill of the other players, counter him and his army, and its not like there are no anti-heavyinfantry weapons for them.

1. upkeep system change to "every faction ease to gathering requsition" more than retribution.
personally i think upkeep down itself dosent bad, BUT the problem is elite army spammed unit this mod too easy & they can push hard in tier 1 beacause they dont beware requsiton starvation. and this accesable elite army recovery their army stregnth even they wiped their major&core unit.

- 1st suggestion: increase upkeep SM, CSM' tier 1 unit(sergent too). they too economical when tier 1 unit compounded.


Hell no, the sm,csm,gk have already high upkeep + if they lose models ,its much more impacting on the economic then on horde races

2nd suggestion: plasma devastator&blastmaster wargear in noise marine DMG or RANGE nerf

no need to say about them, really devastating so horde cannot deal with. and some people use this like siege tank so forced them to come their defense lane. and horde have no tankly unit before tier 3(considering their armor type, other unit's help etc. and with so other element composition in 1v1 lane fight horde rerely crushed defended elite army's lane), they bleed over so much resource and time.


Well first off, its a setup team get it to melee and he cant do shit anymore, its not like you cant ambush him or flank him or ask players to double him.i never had much problems with this kind of weapons even as a horde race. Use jump units, tie him up in melee or counter with other anti-setup aka disruption units. Otherwise yes, it does more damage on horde race, but its not THAT impactful in my opinion.

3. AOE skill damage type- why so much skill still have 'flame' damage type ?

this is "sentense to death" for horde. whatever relic's intend(horde army counter, presentation 40K miniature game), its unreasonable, and FUCK them. (dont say move/control ur squad. exactly i say about game design for team game balance.) aoe skill should be focusing wiped not only to horde but also heavy infantry army.

3rd suggestion: flame type aoe skill at now change dmg type to "plasma" type. this will aoe skill doesnt countering horde, but also useful to elite army. (AT LEAST, nurgle cloud should be change immediately becasue they r WTF mobile aoe skill.)


Well then why you should get aoe weapons anyway, change it to plasma for elite races, even when there are enough for them? Like it seems commander shouldnt get aoe for horde armies at all and making no viable commander wargears for such kind of horde races. The only thing what i would change is the cancer nade aka BLIGHT NADE, but thats it.
User avatar
evilmario5
Level 2
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon 26 Oct, 2015 2:34 pm

Re: teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Postby evilmario5 » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 6:09 pm

+1 for Boogyman
yes I play gk/om a bit no hate plz
User avatar
Psycho
Level 3
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu 24 Dec, 2015 3:08 am

Re: teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Postby Psycho » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 7:34 pm

karnakkardak wrote:- 1st suggestion: increase upkeep SM, CSM' tier 1 unit(sergent too). they too economical when tier 1 unit compounded.


Absolutely not. With SM and CSM you have to retreat said units due to the risk of bleeding ONE model, whereas with the other factions you just have to retreat to prevent the risk of the actual unit wipe. Even with IG guardsmen squads with one single model are incredibly useful due to the repair with sentinel play.

Not to mention, with SM and CSM you have to wait until the models themselves are fully healed due to the importance of those single models, whereas with others you just need the full squad reinforced and can immediately go out again. If you play IG and you retreat a fully upgraded GM squad with 2 models left and reinforce them back to 12, you won't care about those two last models having even 1hp. It even works better with the health regeneration of units due to it being a flat number rather than percentage, so a SM model with 350hp will NEVER in practical situations heal back to full health on its own with .5hp/s, whereas a guardsman with 100 health might.

karnakkardak wrote:2nd suggestion: plasma devastator&blastmaster wargear in noise marine DMG or RANGE nerf


You shouldn't be charging head-first into set up teams' arc of fire, let alone against plasma/BM as a quantity>quality faction. As much as I hate them, they're an artillery unit by design. Every faction has a way to disrupt them, and if there are so many of them that you can't disrupt them all, you should go with your teammates and gang up on someone else as you'd have the mobility advantage, hopefully.

What's more those units are annoying to EVERY faction. There's nothing pretty about having a plasma dev shot land square on top of your three tactical marines.

karnakkardak wrote: 3rd suggestion: flame type aoe skill at now change dmg type to "plasma" type. this will aoe skill doesnt countering horde, but also useful to elite army. (AT LEAST, nurgle cloud should be change immediately becasue they r WTF mobile aoe skill.)


https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... =flame_pvp
https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype ... plasma_pvp

wat

Nurgle cloud isn't even flame damage, it's heavy melee, and does bonus damage on retreat. It's bullshit, I know, but doesn't excuse you not even knowing what you're talking about.

The only thing I'd be able to agree on with you would be a point you haven't even made at all: that there might be an oversaturation of AoE abilities and attacks. But you didn't even touch the subject.
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 7:43 pm

@karnakkardak
The team game balance is just "fine". It's not broken for any of the things you say anyway.

1 The upkeep for those kind of units is already high enough. There usually is also a higher popcost.
2 There are plenty of ways to deal with those, jumptroops, your own artillery, lik the "horde" manticore, stikkbommas can completely destroy them too, etc.
3 Making AoE abilities do plasma damage while there are already polenti (S)HI destroyers out there is not a good idea.

karnakkardak wrote:after i upload this,maybe some SM/CSM fanboys blame me just "u dare nerf opinion to my favorite faction?! NOOOOOOO" expected. but what i want to say, "this mod for balance not ur overpowered faction simulator.
You don't need to be a "SM/Chaos fanboy" to not agree with these suggestions. Your suggestions do not make any sense for me and should be explained way better as to why you even think this is the case.
Eternal Crusade referral code: EC-OZVT4BVATDHX6 (link)
User avatar
Adeptus Noobus
Level 4
Posts: 970
Joined: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 12:47 pm

Re: teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sat 09 Jul, 2016 8:55 pm

Riku pretty much laid it out why your suggestions/claims are not a good idea.

I remember you being an IG player, which means you should have plenty of counters to setup teams. Since you mentioned Plasma Devastators, let me tell you that it is not that easy to punish "horde" type armies with it. Especially IG has such efficient counters for it, that they have to pay off with single shots otherwise Plasma Devastators would be utterly useless. Stikkbomas, Spotters, etc. are so good at dealing with setup teams, so that should not be a problem for horde armies.

The pop cost and upkeep for (C)SM models is already very high and losing one model, as has been said before, is very damaging for your economy and in 1v1s can even lose you games because all your timings for subsequent purchases are screwed.

AOE has to be potent as well because it is per design a counter to horde armies. I will admit that the noxious cloud is very strong right now but all the other stuff is most definitely neccessary because low model units could never win in a war of attrition/1-to-1 fire fights. Try to image how (C)SM units will do in a direct fire fight with plasma GMs. They will lose every single time.

I would make this request before you delve further into this topic: play with SM/Chaos a lot vs good horde army players and THEN try to argue your points again. I guarantee you that you will have changed your mind about some of the things you claim.
User avatar
Soberson
Level 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue 23 Feb, 2016 10:18 am

Re: teamgame balance about elite/horde is broken

Postby Soberson » Sun 10 Jul, 2016 5:05 pm

Changes and outright nefrs you propose are too major and would gut SM / CSM. Have you seen particular problems being discussed in Balance forum (ie Techmarine structures, Eldar DA Exarch etc)? Starting there is a good way to go
#IGisFINE
Guy gamer.

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests