Re-Evaluation of Dire Avengers

[Adeptus Noobus]

Soooooo, after having watched quite a few games and talked to quite a few people about it, I think it is time to take another look at Dire Avengers.

Squad cost - 270 req - 600 health
Exarch Leader - 85/15 (T1) - 275 health
Combined damage output - 5 x 8.75 = 43.75 dps (without Exarch)
43.75 + 12.89 = 56.64 dps (with Exarch)

While one of them is quite fine, getting up to 3 is no problem anymore and as you can see the damage output is quite substantial. Now I know that the dmg fall-off is noticable as you kill off models but I venture to say that the pricing of this unit does still not reflect its current stats/state-of-balance/performance. With the Exarch in T1 you gain quite a lot for the low price of 85/15: detection, leaping melee leader (~24dps), 275 extra health, ~13 dps extra in range. In T2 you gain the 20% dmg reduction for no further cost, which is also quite powerful.
In my opinion the Exarch Leader is too cheap for what he brings to the table and could do with a slight cost-increase to something like 90/20.

I am happy to hear your thoughts on the matter.

P.S: Please let us be serious here, meaning no simple "l2p" or "git gud" answers.

[Kvn]

With the cost of most Eldar squad leaders being high already, I'd personally vote for the DA exarch to just move back to T2 with the same price (assuming his T1performance is the issue you're discussing).

Admittedly, I'm biased since I never buy him until the damage resistance kicks in, but would that solve/help the issue?

[Mathis]

I don't understand why DA's need to do 1,75 more dps (per model) than shootas even though they are otherwise exactly the same unit

[Adila]

I think, it needs to go to t2 again or an higher cost, especially in the ig mu, it feels super easy mode going 3 da and then just kit them out with exarchs for even more dps. Its a bit to much for T1 especially the cost from DAs got down already to 270 req, an t1 exarch with an cost of 85/15 with an special attack which can be controlled to a certain amount is a bit to much at once.

[saltychipmunk]

I don't understand why DA's need to do 1,75 more dps (per model) than shootas even though they are otherwise exactly the same unit

its missleading, guardians are a front loaded unit . ie much of their potency comes very early at the cost of having very very bad scaling.

DA are better than shoots
upgrade DAs are inferior to upgraded shootas


they only do around 57 peirce vs the potential 75 - 85 that upgraded shootas can dish out not too mention the shootas will have a range advantage on two models too. sure shootas are more expensive , but the fact that they can be invest in more is a perk in of itself . too the point that if the shoota nob were functionally identical to the DA exarch in cost and stats , shoota boys would face role DAs

this is really really noticeable in extended game vs DA spamming players(even with the current exarch). they tend to have extremely strong openings leading into t2 but once 2.5 and t3 start getting into full swing you really start to feel the weight of having 36+ pop tied up in a light infantry unit that only does 57 pierce damage

[Dark Riku]

Except for the fact that DA get grenades, can place perfect cover and get FoF for 15 power ...
Da should cost 300 req again.

[GuruSkippy]

and have default 5.5 speed
this one is very good in EvO match up.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Let us also not forget that they get the Embolden ability that breaks suppression, grants suppression resistance and boosts damage.

[Psycho]

In practice the unupgraded DA DPS is a bit higher as they are able to shoot for ~7 'cycles' of 3 seconds each (2 second burst + 1 cooldown, ~21 seconds of continuous shooting before reloading). Before their reload kicks in, they have a DPS of 50, and with triple DA you have a 150 DPS right out the gate with just 540 req investment due to the initial free squad. I know that the same DPS concept applies to everyone else, but with 150 DPS in the first ~21 seconds of the first engagement, it just won't last enough for reloading, snowballing from there. Not even gonna mention the farseer's synergy with them.

Might be just my godawful luck as IG vs Eldar but the exarch never struck me as much else other than an added bonus to the already existing problem I'm having. With the other upgrade that gives the DAs the only perfect cover in the game, grenades, and fleet of foot, which can all be used at roughly the same time if they're level 4, all of it potentially tripled due to 3 squads, the exarch and his bonuses felt less of a threat in comparison. More like the difference between getting driven off in 5 seconds instead of 6.

[Carnevour]

DA are actually quite ridiculous at the moment, which is probably the fault of them being able to get a warlock in T1. They become too shooty and too hard to force off esp if its a warlock. They are pretty much the best starting unit in the game atm.
And seriously a starting unit getting detection + durability cuz of the model and dmg increase for 15 power? Something is fishy.

[Kvn]

DA are actually quite ridiculous at the moment, which is probably the fault of them being able to get a warlock in T1. They become too shooty and too hard to force off esp if its a warlock. They are pretty much the best starting unit in the game atm.
And seriously a starting unit getting detection + durability cuz of the model and dmg increase for 15 power? Something is fishy.

To be fair, that detection is only range 15. Soft detection at best. I would agree that exarch should be T2, but let's not exaggerate his perks.

[egewithin]

They may cost 300 again, but I want a reinforce cost decrease. They bleed a lot. And I mean a lot. They are not like bloodletter that I can micro very well. I mean, you may say with all those shields, fleets and stuff they deserve that cost, but let us remember that I am not figting always behind of those shields. And generally in wide open areas.

[Torpid]

DA are actually quite ridiculous at the moment, which is probably the fault of them being able to get a warlock in T1. They become too shooty and too hard to force off esp if its a warlock. They are pretty much the best starting unit in the game atm.
And seriously a starting unit getting detection + durability cuz of the model and dmg increase for 15 power? Something is fishy.

To be fair, that detection is only range 15. Soft detection at best. I would agree that exarch should be T2, but let's not exaggerate his perks.

Soft detection for sure, but it still entirely counters mines/IEDs. It's a powerful option for sure for so cheap. I agree with Carne that they are ridiculous atm. Reasoning below v

They may cost 300 again, but I want a reinforce cost decrease. They bleed a lot. And I mean a lot. They are not like bloodletter that I can micro very well. I mean, you may say with all those shields, fleets and stuff they deserve that cost, but let us remember that I am not figting always behind of those shields. And generally in wide open areas.

This is how eldar always played and I liked it when they played like that rather than a-moving blobs of squads that are far too similar to tacs in terms of durability and dps! Literally, t1 DA with their exarch play like tacs. They're incredibly good. You're not meant to be able to fight out in the open, aggressively, away from your shields with blobs of DA as eldar. That's just not how it is meant to work. the fact that you can is not a good thing, because eldar has many other boons such as their still ever-present retreat killing potential and many supportive abilities/globals (including webway gates) that balance out their weakness in aggressive, frontal pushing so that they are not too weak. (also their units are fast. DA are fast, don't forget that, it's very important)

In response in general to the topic:

As Adila mentioned earlier they have utterly broken the IG vs Eldar MU. Before IG could easily bleed the DA models and force them off gaining a snowballing advantage in terms of req bleed and map control but the extra hp the exarch gives alone makes it exponentially more difficult to do either of these things now. I feel the difference when I go 3x shoota as the warboss vs IG and my shoota nobs that I need to keep a 3/5 shoota squad on the field cost me 25 power and only offer similar boosts to my damage/hp! It's HUUUUGGGE. The timing window is massively inferior, yet shootas by default are worse than DA too...

And on another note, I don't buy into Salty's argument at all that fully upgraded DA are inferior to fully upgraded shootas. Uh-huh. Shootas suck in late t2 tbh. So do DA, EXCEPT DA get grenades and shields which always scale. Shootas don't. Sure fully upgraded in a raw head on fight shootas do better, but that's why you only upgrade 2 of your DA fully - you use them as support units once they've finished with their pressure-frenzy in T1. Also, DA are a lot cheaper in terms of upkeep than shootas. Shootas have 15 pop with nob, avengers only 12 and the nob is 7upkeep vs the 4 of the exarch... Different races, yeah, but please. It should be evident that there is a performance disparity likely here.

Not to mention 3x DAs running around with their exarchs make IEDs so so so bad now compared to before. In fact it more or less makes catachans useless (I still think catachans don't do enough ranged dps). If someone went 3x DA, 2x SCP vs me for all history if I go catachans those IEDs are gonna wipe squads all over. But now it just won't since all 3 of those DA are able to detect my IEDs. It sucks.

And then there's the issue of them each doing 55dps in t1. The damage is really overwhelming. Way too good for a mere 15 power.

Should be 90/20 if they are going to remain t1. I don't like them detecting either, but rangers are so terrible that they may have to remain detecting.

[Dark Riku]

They may cost 300 again, but I want a reinforce cost decrease. They bleed a lot. And I mean a lot. They are not like bloodletter that I can micro very well. I mean, you may say with all those shields, fleets and stuff they deserve that cost, but let us remember that I am not figting always behind of those shields. And generally in wide open areas.

L2micro? They bleed as much as you let them.

You forgot to say that DA also repair in comparison to shootas
I also chuckled at the DA-shoota notion.

[Oddnerd]

Definitely a relatively strong unit ATM

Out of the box for 270 req:
-Tac DPS ranged weapons
-Repair

With upgrades:
-Grenades
-Perfect cover
-Speed boost
-Ranged damage resistance
-Detection
-Squad leader who adds reasonable melee damage to the squad (if you need to tie down another ranged unit)

Considering how much you pay for these guys, I would say you get more for your buck than other races would for roughly the same cost.

[Tex]

Squad and pricing is fine I think. It's always been the warlock leader.

I think I remember Cael adding detection options for races dependent on a single unit, which was good, but I am very much in agreement with torpid that the warlock leader (along with his detection) has absolutely RUINED the IG vs Eldar matchup.

[HARRYY]

Consider also the detection-problem for the LA or KN matchups. Id say Keep them leaders T1, maybe for a higher power-cost? Actually those leaders are there to shift detection away from rangers-only! if they have +5 power cost youd atleast have a Chance to tech faster against the eldar, if he feels like going over-the-top with DA-leaders in T1.

[PhatE]

No starting squad should be at 300 req at a starting cost, that's ridiculous.

However the exarch in T1 provides an unnecessary level of durability at this stage of the game when it could just go back to battle equipment. The exarch really is a T2 type thing.

Detection is also something that is really redundant for the exarch. It doesn't help in either the LA or KN matchups considering how small is it is practise. If you're against IG then this only really helps for spotting IED's.

Rangers are still the only thing that can really offer good detection for Eldar other than farsight.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Detection is also something that is really redundant for the exarch. It doesn't help in either the LA or KN matchups considering how small is it is practise. If you're against IG then this only really helps for spotting IED's.

Rangers are still the only thing that can really offer good detection for Eldar other than farsight.

I have to completely agree with this statement. Rangers are far superior for detection purposes, when it comes to detecting units that is. On the other hand, detecting those IED's is extremely valuable because you will never run the risk of losing one of your DAs to it or even losing health to it.

Squad and pricing is fine I think. It's always been the warlock leader.

I think I remember Cael adding detection options for races dependent on a single unit, which was good, but I am very much in agreement with torpid that the warlock leader (along with his detection) has absolutely RUINED the IG vs Eldar matchup.

Eldar vs IG is not the only matchup. SM vs WSE + 3 DAs with Exarch + Banshees + Shuriken spirals out of control so fast it is not even funny. So for 95 power you get 3 Tac+Sergeant (-2.75) dps combined with counter-initiating Banshees and a suppression team, all in T1.

The only thing that bothers me is that if Exarchs go back to T2, Eldar are again super dependant on Rangers for detection which would not go along well with how Caeltos tried to fix the Eldar-detection issue.

So after readin all of your thoughts, 2 seem to apear again and again:

• Exarch gtfo T1
• Exarch and/or DAs need a cost-adjustment

Considering the state of Rangers I feel inclined towards the 2nd.

[Dark Riku]

No starting squad should be at 300 req at a starting cost, that's ridiculous.

Eldar gets such a strong starting squad for free. If you want them to cost less then they should receive some serious nerfs.
15 power for grenades and they get other abilities with that upgrade while also having tac dps ... Now that's ridiculous!

Detection is also something that is really redundant for the exarch. It doesn't help in either the LA or KN matchups considering how small is it is practise. If you're against IG then this only really helps for spotting IED's.

It helps a lot versus the infiltrating heroes. There is a hug diffrence of being able to go where ever you please with them or need to stay away from the DA.
It helps for spotting IED's and it helps with their survivability and damage output, which is big deal.

[PhatE]

I'll say this right now I have not the time nor the patience to talk about this with you, Riku.

I've given my thoughts on the matter and I don't wish to incite an argument. Let's just say that we agree to disagree.

[Lichtbringer]

Consider also the detection-problem for the LA or KN matchups. Id say Keep them leaders T1, maybe for a higher power-cost? Actually those leaders are there to shift detection away from rangers-only! if they have +5 power cost youd atleast have a Chance to tech faster against the eldar, if he feels like going over-the-top with DA-leaders in T1.

Isn't KN one of the worst matchups for Eldar anyway?

[saltychipmunk]

Except for the fact that DA get grenades, can place perfect cover and get FoF for 15 power ...
Da should cost 300 req again.

well you are kind of omitting the req portion of that upgrade. plus if its cheap plasma nades/cover you dont like would it not make more sense to increase the cost of that specific upgrade ... rather than the base unit?


not everyone is particularly fantastic with plasma grenades and i dont think it is right to hurt other play styles (that might not use said upgrade) just because DA with said upgrade may or maynot be over performing.

by all means nerf them , but nerf the thing about them you actually have a problem with.

[Ordie]

The shield bothers me more than the exarch does, specifically because it offers very limited counter-play.

Perfect cover protects (meaning negates all damage) squads from regular ranged damage, but also from Flamers, Grenade Launchers, even thrown Grenades, so long as its thrown from the other side of the shield. This means that all of the normal mean of countering cover, are useless as long as the shield is in place. And of course, as long as the shield is in place, you are doing no damage to the Triple DAs, which are returning 131.25 piercing DPS (8.75 DPS * 5 Models * 3 Squads). If you have no cover available, it doesn't take very long before you start dropping models, or needing to retreat.Setup teams can be helpful, but the combination of fleet and a grenade on every squad and a fairly long throwing distance, makes it tricky to field them effectively. Of course, your setup team has to be able to set up in the face of 131.25 piercing DPS.

Now, flamers are still useful, because they help destroy the shield, but the Codex indicates that the shields are Tiny Infantry in size and armor, so while there is no penalty while using flamers, there is also no bonus, and they are 500 HP. Regular fire is inaccurate due to their size. All of which adds up to needing a fair bit of firepower to shoot one down.

You can utilize jump troops to break the shield on landing or try to counter the Avengers, but that is problematic itself. ASM are 50 power and are pretty directly countered by Banshees and your choice of Merciless Witch Blade, Channeling Runes, Doombringer/Armor of Fortune/Guide (players choice of 2 will win that fight pretty easy), or the Entangling Web into Grenades (which you get along with the shield, so no additional cost). At most you are paying 35 power to counter a 50 power squad. For raptors, the difference is less, but still an issue, and while Stormboyz are 35 power, they are going to bleed heavily getting into a fight with 3 DA, Banshees and a hero, effectively increasing the cost of fielding them.

Unless you have a hero that provides Crush, I'm not seeing a whole lot of great options to get past the shield. At least as I see it, the issue isn't the cost of the Dire Avengers of the Exarch themselves. The trouble is that, the low cost of the Avengers themselves and the upgrade allows you to field a large number of shields when you are forced off, and those shields provide a huge amount of durability to a very cheap, very high damage squad.

TL:DR. Get rid of Energy Shield or make the shield susceptible to other Anti-cover weapons, to balance DAs.

[Aetherion]

I would also like to add that 3 DAs with the equipment are sufficiently versatile to counter setups, jump troops, achieve ranged fire parity if not outright winning and fend off melee troops. All this, at 0 upkeep (or a bit if you get the exarchs). The requisition saved can lead to a significant tech advantage since Eldar dont have a req dump other than gens, thus giving access to fast vehicles which are very well supported with 3 repair units. Sure they are not guardsmen in repair, but being able to outrepair a lot of the soft AV adds so much pressure on the opponent in T2. And this is assuming fast tech and killing the opponent later in the game. Throw on the harder hitting T1 eldar stuff to snowball the initial pressure of 3 DAs and the opportunity for counter play gets lesser and lesser. As for the shields, I was quite surprised to find that they are tiny infantry (and hence have accuracy modifiers? someone might have to test this) I personally find that they crumble fairly fast. Also pretty sure grenade launchers somehow work on units behind them (which is why I hate the LG nade launcher). But yes its ridiculous how nades thrown from in front of them, landing behind them dont do damage to the units behind the shield.

[Element]

Except for the fact that DA get grenades, can place perfect cover and get FoF for 15 power ...
Da should cost 300 req again.

-I certainly agree, with that of this said above post. I am still actually rather baffled, puzzled, and curious as to that of why it is they recieved such a requisition starting field price decrease adjustment in the first place.

[Ordie]

I personally find that they crumble fairly fast.

Let me start by agreeing, yes the shields crumble fairly quickly, but when you're playing with these high of numbers, short amounts of time is still a lot of damage.

Example: Lets say you have purchased 3 energy shields to go with your 3 DA. Now lets say your opponent can offer a total of 150 DPS including accuracy modifiers, if any. It will take him a little more than three seconds to break down a shield assuming they focus fire, but for easy math, lets pretend its 3 seconds flat. In three seconds you have pumped 393.75 piercing into a squad of your choice. (131.25 DPS for 3 seconds). One shield is down, lets say you retreat that squad immediately. Your opponent shifts focus to the next shield, since your first squad is off the field. In the next three seconds, you have pumped out another 262.5 (8.75 DPS * 5 Models * 2 Squads * 3 Seconds) piercing. You withdraw the newly vulnerable squad immediately. In the next three seconds, you pump a final 131.25 (8.75 DPS * 5 Models * 1 Squads * 3 Second) piercing into your enemy, then retreat.

In the nine seconds that this fight took, you have dealt 787.5 piercing damage to the enemy. And that's in a shortest case scenario, where you opponent has not bled models or retreated squads, thereby lowering his damage output, prolonging the shields life, and lengthening time you have to put sparkle bullets into his squads.

And again, this 9 second fight assumes you instantly retreat, and your hero is off contemplating the inferiority of other races. Add in Guide or Destructor or WSE damage. Or do none of those things, and have your hero tie up a high damage unit (Techmarine, Tacs, CSM, upgraded Shootas) in melee. For every second you add to the life the shields is another 262.5 damage added to the final amount (8.75 DPS * 5 Models * 6 [(3 squads * 1 second) + (2 squads * 1 second) + (1 squad * 1 second)])

Second, 500 hp of infantry armor goes down quickly to focus fire, agreed. But when DAs have 600 hp to start with, using a shield effectively doubles the health pool of the squad.

And finally, according to the codex, shields protect against grenade launchers. https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype.php?dam=grenade_launcher

Damage vs Energy Shield: 0.

TL:DR, Math seems to indicate that even very very short fights output a lot of damage, while preventing a lot of damage to your squads. To borrow a turn of phrase from HolyHammer, Energy Shields are Shimmer Orbs in tier 1.

[HARRYY]

I would also like to add that 3 DAs with the equipment are sufficiently versatile to counter setups, jump troops, achieve ranged fire parity if not outright winning and fend off melee troops. All this, at 0 upkeep (or a bit if you get the exarchs). The requisition saved can lead to a significant tech advantage since Eldar dont have a req dump other than gens, thus giving access to fast vehicles which are very well supported with 3 repair units. Sure they are not guardsmen in repair, but being able to outrepair a lot of the soft AV adds so much pressure on the opponent in T2. And this is assuming fast tech and killing the opponent later in the game. Throw on the harder hitting T1 eldar stuff to snowball the initial pressure of 3 DAs and the opportunity for counter play gets lesser and lesser. As for the shields, I was quite surprised to find that they are tiny infantry (and hence have accuracy modifiers? someone might have to test this) I personally find that they crumble fairly fast. Also pretty sure grenade launchers somehow work on units behind them (which is why I hate the LG nade launcher). But yes its ridiculous how nades thrown from in front of them, landing behind them dont do damage to the units behind the shield.

yep. played some eldar now and with good micro you reaelly can do a lot with them and save so much req. Also the shields. they make them stand a lot fo things, making eldar pretty strong in staying stationary. eldar being able to stay stationary something shouldnt really be possible, they are hit & run and should hush away from direct confrontations.
Id say:
DA 270 req -> 280 req.
shield hp decreased. they should just give initial protection

[Aetherion]

And finally, according to the codex, shields protect against grenade launchers. https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype.php?dam=grenade_launcher
Damage vs Energy Shield: 0.

Dayum, thats bad

To borrow a turn of phrase from HolyHammer, Energy Shields are Shimmer Orbs in tier 1.

Lel, we even get to fire out of them

I think they remain necessary to give Eldar some form of staying power especially against pressure based races. I would suggest increasing the energy cost of throwing down shields since at 45 energy, they can fleet to a place and plop down shields, or 1 squad throwing down 2 shields during downtime (or like 6 shields between 3 squads...so like extra 3000 hp for the army). Say 60/70 energy and it should help the issue of shields though I personally like them as they are now (Elderp master race)

[Nikster]

And finally, according to the codex, shields protect against grenade launchers. https://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype.php?dam=grenade_launcher
Damage vs Energy Shield: 0.

Dayum, thats bad

To borrow a turn of phrase from HolyHammer, Energy Shields are Shimmer Orbs in tier 1.

Lel, we even get to fire out of them

I think they remain necessary to give Eldar some form of staying power especially against pressure based races. I would suggest increasing the energy cost of throwing down shields since at 45 energy, they can fleet to a place and plop down shields, or 1 squad throwing down 2 shields during downtime (or like 6 shields between 3 squads...so like extra 3000 hp for the army). Say 60/70 energy and it should help the issue of shields though I personally like them as they are now (Elderp master race)

Yeah, that's an idea which I also wanted to bring up. If Shields are really such a big issue, increasing the energy cost of them by, say, 15-20 power could keep Eldar players from spamming them and force them to be even thriftier with their energy management (on a squad which is already fairly energy intensive, to be fair). The number of shields which can be on the battlefield at the same time could also be limited. Apart from that, their size could also be changed from "tiny" to "small". It has infantry armour and melts fairly quickly to concentrated fire, as some people have already pointed out. This way, they would go down even faster. But nerfing them into the ground or even removing them shouldn't be a option. Eldar units, being both very fragile and expensive, are just so reliant on ability usage, buffs, damage mitgation and general "evasiveness".

Well, and the Exarch, for all I care, could be moved to T2 again. Apart from that, I don't see an issue with him (although I main Eldar (does that surprise anyone? ), I also play IG almost as often (and every once in a while Tyranids and Chaos) and have played quite a few matches against Eldar players, which could really go either way, even with them going for triple DAs and double Shuriken. Well supported Sentinel(s!)/guardsmen, Spotters and good hero play can be an absolute nightmare for ranged-heavy Eldar in T1). Although when it comes to detection, I don't really like the idea of being even more reliant on Rangers in T1...