Some Eldar stuff

[PhatE]

Just a disclaimer:

This isn't a QQ thread but more of an observational post which I'm sure will turn into a QQ/T_T/wah wah/boo hoo/go fuck yourself/etc type thread eventually. But I'll keep it relatively shortish on how Eldar tend to play out in this new patch.

For lack of a better word I'd say that playing as Eldar is very strange right now. Where they were getting hit really hardest has been resolved with the Dire Avenger change, their transition to T2 is far smoother (less surplus in requisition when it comes to T2) and the cost effectiveness of some of "community felt" units have some nice buffs to them. I personally thought Dark Reapers were very good but I can see how their slowishness and not having a Falcon there to support them made them a unit you needed to use in conjunction with something else. Dark Reapers always excelled with the Falcon there way more than any other unit vs HI races, but that's another discussion I suppose.

I do think that though that Eldar, after establishing their T2, becomes a bit too tanky for it's own good considering most of it is heavy infantry. We are having a much larger increase in Fire Dragons and a large decline in Warp Spider usage. Whilst the Fire Dragon was an underused unit for a long time I do think that the more recent changes to them have over shadowed the Warp Spider Squad and make them a far less attractive comparatively speaking. The Warp Spider call in is the rare case in which to see the squad. Don't get me wrong, not saying they're not bought. They're just bought significantly less.

Whilst this is ok, I do think it illustrates the power of the Fire Dragon to the point where in the near future Fire Dragons will need to be re-examined and refined a bit more than what's happened in the past 6 months. Given that they are cheaper, pretty quick and do melta damage it only makes sense that Warp Spiders are phased out more and more. Warlock has Swift Movement and the Farseer has guide. Heck, even crackshot on them can snipe a Predator tank if it's not moved immediately. Even back when Fire Dragons weren't a fantastic unit, the Farseer made them do nasty as fuck damage. But even then Fire Dragons were seriously underestimated in the same way that Dark Reapers are right now.

The DA avenger change is also something that I was advocating along with Hans to which we both received. This in my opinion was the best change for the entirety of the Eldar stuff. However I can see that in a lot of MU's that the Exarch being in T1 can be a bit over the top. IG are having an even worse time now that Eldar have both. Perhaps this is the nostalgia kicking in but I miss the old DA where they were 270 req, BE gave HP, and the exarch was in T2. This makes sense in a sequential sort of way. It also gave more variety to what Eldar openings could be and still be effective enough to make strong impacts. All the while for it to not being insanely strong so that you could respond in a similar way and do relatively well.

I guess there's needs to be a point to each of these posts. Whilst I'm happy to see that Fire Dragons are becoming more of a thing I'd like to see some sort of shift around for Eldar T2. Something where Warp Spiders are more relevant and not thrown away in favour of Fire Dragons. It becomes a straight line if it carries on the same way which is something that the DA change was meant to prevent rather than have the exact same problem the 2.4.2 had but moved into T2. The previous issue was that the cost was quite high and the amount of bleed wasn't sustainable making different builds harder to pull off. Now the issue is becoming "why do I need warpspiders when fire dragons do a lot more for lower costs and will probably snipe whatever I'm responding to"

Right now I don't really have a suggestion as to where to go from here. I'm still waiting to see how the tournament goes and if I'm entirely wrong then I'm totally ok with that. Just putting this out there that it might become an issue gameplay wise

[Asmon]

I don't understand why you're saying that old DA with bonus hp BE and exarch in T2 created more opening build variety... It makes no sense to me.

To me full melta squads are too strong, which includes FD, but I've been saying it from the beginning... WS are just too micro-intensive for about the same utility, except vs heroes where they still shine. Then there is the lower damage against retreating units.

Btw you'll need this to make a good wah-wah thread.

[PhatE]

I don't understand why you're saying that old DA with bonus hp BE and exarch in T2 created more opening build variety... It makes no sense to me.

I meant that if people just buy exarchs in T1 then they don't necessarily need to expand their build orders. Having it as it used to be means that Eldar would more than likely be required to be more creative and pay attention more often than they do currently.

[egewithin]

I was thinking about making fire dragons like noise marines, T1.5 full flamer squad BEFORE I MEET WITH ELITE MOD. But now, this is the last thing that this mod needs. There are too many stupid discussions around and I think I will have a word on that.

[Asmon]

I meant that if people just buy exarchs in T1 then they don't necessarily need to expand their build orders. Having it as it used to be means that Eldar would more than likely be required to be more creative and pay attention more often than they do currently.

In a way maybe. But certainly Rangers not picking models changed the build diversity much more.

[PhatE]

In a way maybe. But certainly Rangers not picking models changed the build diversity much more.

I concur. That has been a really good change that's brought about some frustrations for some but definitely forced those with particular habits to do other things and adjust. I still use them pretty frequently but I feel that I have to use them in pairs for them to have a real game changing impact.

WS are just too micro-intensive for about the same utility, except vs heroes where they still shine. Then there is the lower damage against retreating units.

I can totally get behind this as well. They definitely have their time and place such as vs Orks they do really well but Fire Dragons just charge through stuff like it's nobody's business. Really solid units that provides a lot.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Fire Dragons were meant to give leeway for Eldar to play more on the aggressive front again, whilst still preserving the defensive-preference Brightlance cannon for dealing with vehicles. I feel this has been very much successful, and the symbiosis with Webways and other misc. commander/global abilities that are disposable, they really shine as aggressive shock troopers in this sense.

I think one reason why Fire Dragons are preferred over Warp Spiders is their performance differences when it comes to dealing with vehicles AND other unit types in some matchups. Take for example the Eldar vs SM matchup. Razorbacks are more easily countered by Fire Dragons and Gates than setting up your Brightlance and snaring the RB with a Haywire Grenade. Their damage type also works wonders vs HI and especially SHI in the late-game.

[saltychipmunk]

It could also be because eldar already have a ton of pierce damage from t1 . if you go 3x gu there is pretty much zero reason to go warpspiders as a first pick. Even if the opponents unit composition is conducive to pierce damage. it makes more sense to diversify damage types for if nothing else than to be prepared .

[ChokoBambus]

Have you maybe considered that WSs are not that good in this mod? I mean, they are not that worse then in retail, but a lot of the things around them are stronger and/or cheaper while their upkeep and reinforcement cost remains huge. They do not explode retreating stuff anymore either. THey also have very limited shelf life due to damage type and do not scale into tier 3.

FD are stupid design, as are any anti all units which include and are not limited to: upgraded purgators, terminators, auto cannons, etc..

melta damage needs to be very rare and/or come with a major disadvantage of usage like with WG and not given out like candy. As far as I am concerned, FD can be deleted from the game even though they are amazing performance wise.

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

Warp Spiders seem fine to me. Fire Dragons are just more popular because they counter vehicles so easily just in case any come out.

[Kvn]

FD are stupid design, as are any anti all units which include and are not limited to: upgraded purgators, terminators, auto cannons, etc..

melta damage needs to be very rare and/or come with a major disadvantage of usage like with WG and not given out like candy. As far as I am concerned, FD can be deleted from the game even though they are amazing performance wise.

Just throwing it out there, but Dragons do have several major disadvantages. Namely the total lack of natural approach mechanisms, any kind of snare, very short range, and now their very low durability with a power cost attached to reinforcement. While their damage resistance to piercing remained largely unchanged, they now have effectively half as much hp when going up against things like Plasma, meaning they suffer the same fate as Dark Reapers.

While I'm in no position to talk about people's unit choices, it currently feels to me like the reason you see Dragons a lot more is because people are still riding the "Dragons OP" mindset. It's rare in my mind personally that you'd be better off with them than you would with either the cheaper transitional AV of a Brightlance/Banshee combo, or the almost-all-around better, but slower, purchase of a Wraithguard squad.

[Atlas]

No no, I'm actually with Choko on this one and with the general mindset that anti-all units are bad for the game in general (which I'll credit to Forest since he's the one who mentions it the most to me).

FDs are not for a lack of possible buffs and consider their FotM and weapon knockback immunity, it's not as hard as you think to rushdown a vehicle with it.

But on the larger topic, anti-all units in general are pretty lame imo. Everybody has it in some form ofc (Psypurgs, Autohavocs, FDs etc) and the most tolerable version of it I've seen so far are WG, which has some actual flaws in exchange for it.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Just throwing it out there, but Dragons do have several major disadvantages. Namely the total lack of natural approach mechanisms, any kind of snare, very short range, and now their very low durability with a power cost attached to reinforcement. While their damage resistance to piercing remained largely unchanged, they now have effectively half as much hp when going up against things like Plasma, meaning they suffer the same fate as Dark Reapers.

I somewhat disagree with that statement. Every Eldar hero has the possibility to buff Fire Dragons in such a way that the typical Dragon-rushdown will be successful most of the times:

• Swift Movement
• Guide
• Crackshot
• Fortune
• Distortion Field
• Gates (most deadly approach mechanism with the Farseer)

The range is also increased to a whopping 28 when the Exarch is purchased (increasing the total cost of Fire Dragons to 445/45 - which is still fine).

@Atlas:
Autocannons and Purgation squads are setup teams which is their "tradeoff". Thus Fire Dragons and setup teams are hardly comparable. I do agree with your statement though that anti-all units are not a very good design in the sense that it requires to little skill to use them or bear to little risk to purchase them.

[Kvn]

I somewhat disagree with that statement. Every Eldar hero has the possibility to buff Fire Dragons in such a way that the typical Dragon-rushdown will be successful most of the times:

Please don't exaggerate. There is no AV unit in the game that works most of the time. If there was, there would be no point in buying vehicles against said unit since it would be such a hard counter to them.

• Swift Movement
• Guide
• Crackshot
• Fortune
• Distortion Field
• Gates (most deadly approach mechanism with the Farseer)

And if you're using all these buffs (with the exception of gates) on the Dragons, it means you're not using them on your core squads, who typically need them a lot more. In addition, it means you have to choose between being able to chase the vehicle (Warlock global) or if you want to deal more damage (FS/WSE), neither of which solve the basic issues that Dragons have in their counters such as melee or just getting shot by their target. Distort Field helps mitigate this, but their low HP pool leaves them extremely vulnerable to things like tanks especially.

In addition, all of those same buffs can be used with Wraithguard, who do pretty much everything that FD do, but better, and more cost-efficiently since they bleed considerably less.

The range is also increased to a whopping 28 when the Exarch is purchased (increasing the total cost of Fire Dragons to 445/45 - which is still fine).

It's only two more range than shotgun scouts, or three more than the only other Fusion Gun user, the Autarch so I'm not sure where the whopping part comes in. Maybe in regards to the twenty range of ST or Raptor Melta guns, but those units also have built in perks such as Infiltration/Melta bomb or Jump/Heavy Armor/Melta bomb. Not to mention, this brings their cost up a lot closer to Wraithguard, who, again, overlap heavily with their combat capabilities.

I'm not asking for them to be buffed or anything like that, I'm just trying to point out that FDs aren't the awesome anti-all unit that people keep saying they are.

[HARRYY]

I think FD have too less of a downside. But actually this should be no problem at all, since everything is pretty much versatile in elite, or has tendejncies of "anti-all" ... I have seen 2 SM-scouts throwing their nades from invisible State onto a 80% HP Chimera ------ blowing it up. Had a fikxing good laugh. FD must be more than fine.

[Adeptus Noobus]

And if you're using all these buffs (with the exception of gates) on the Dragons, it means you're not using them on your core squads, who typically need them a lot more. In addition, it means you have to choose between being able to chase the vehicle (Warlock global) or if you want to deal more damage (FS/WSE), neither of which solve the basic issues that Dragons have in their counters such as melee or just getting shot by their target. Distort Field helps mitigate this, but their low HP pool leaves them extremely vulnerable to things like tanks especially.

Well if you aim your attack to take out a vehicle and fall back afterwards, it pretty much makes sense to support the unit, that will take out said vehicle, the most. Maybe I misunderstood you here but this is not a good argument imo.

In addition, all of those same buffs can be used with Wraithguard, who do pretty much everything that FD do, but better, and more cost-efficiently since they bleed considerably less.

Their biggest shortcoming though is their lack of movement speed. That is why they can be tied up easily.

It's only two more range than shotgun scouts, or three more than the only other Fusion Gun user, the Autarch so I'm not sure where the whopping part comes in. Maybe in regards to the twenty range of ST or Raptor Melta guns, but those units also have built in perks such as Infiltration/Melta bomb or Jump/Heavy Armor/Melta bomb. Not to mention, this brings their cost up a lot closer to Wraithguard, who, again, overlap heavily with their combat capabilities.

Well that is where the Eldar army scheme comes in. Their effectiveness partly comes from unit-synergy. The units you mentioned all have their perks built-in and it is justified that their weapons do not have the same stats as Fire Dragons. For example, if STs did not have their melta bomb, their weapons range would render them utterly useless even if the can infiltrate because that vehicle could just drive away.

I'm not asking for them to be buffed or anything like that, I'm just trying to point out that FDs aren't the awesome anti-all unit that people keep saying they are.

Neither am I but they far outshine the combos from back in the days (brightlance + haywire, etc.).


A well setup ambush by Fire Dragons will spell doom for a lighter vehicle most of the time (I stand by that). Not always but most of the time.

A Farseer gate e.g. infiltrates your Fire Dragons and increases their movement speed by +2 to 8.5 which is faster than any vehicle can drive. It is also way faster than any melee unit can run so how will you tie them up? They can not be specialed (unless the special does ability knockback but no infantry unit does that afaik) while moving since they are immune to all but ability knockback. The Farseer can guide them at the same time and put Fortune on them and doom the vehicle. That should pretty much be it for that vehicle.

The Warlock will have to go for a less stealthed approach (unless he has Rangers available) but can put Distortion Field on them as well as use Swift Movement. The result should pretty much be the same as described above. Even more so if you approach from a good flanking position. If you so wish (and I have done so repeatedly) you can also use Channeling Runes to further increase their staying power.

The Warpspider Exarch only has the Crackshot global afaik and is thus not so well equipped to improve the Fire Dragons potential.

On top of all this, their damage type deals additional damage to SHI. That is why I mentioned the Eldar v SM matchup. Terminators do take additional damage whereas Dark Reapers or Warpspiders do not deal increased damage and even less damage in the case of Warpspiders.

In my opinion they are not OP but are a pretty good anti-all unit with good stats. Fast, reasonably sturdy, medium range, anti-all damage, and fit well in to the new Eldar as invisioned by Caeltos: extremely mobile.

[Kvn]

Well if you aim your attack to take out a vehicle and fall back afterwards, it pretty much makes sense to support the unit, that will take out said vehicle, the most. Maybe I misunderstood you here but this is not a good argument imo.

But in order to setup a strike at their vehicle, you need to have your Dragons supported by your army. If you do a massive buff-dump on the Dragons, your opponent has a much easier time shredding your other units, and then turning to deal with your FD. If the opponent sits still and lets you charge in, sure, it would work great, but most likely they'll be pulling back their transport/tank/whatever seeing the amount of investment you're putting on that attack, making the Dragons with their 28 range a lot less effective, and force them to commit much harder. I can tell you for certain that if they wiped vehicles as quickly as people seem to claim, I know that I personally would have a lot more difficulty fielding Falcons against other Eldar players, but I have yet to run into a situation where that was true. Of course, individual experience is subjective, but I also have yet to see evidence of this happening in replays of other players either.

Their biggest shortcoming though is their lack of movement speed. That is why they can be tied up easily.

Which is pretty much the only thing Dragons have above them. That by itself isn't worth the sheer bleed and lack of field presence in my eyes.

Well that is where the Eldar army scheme comes in. Their effectiveness partly comes from unit-synergy. The units you mentioned all have their perks built-in and it is justified that their weapons do not have the same stats as Fire Dragons. For example, if STs did not have their melta bomb, their weapons range would render them utterly useless even if the can infiltrate because that vehicle could just drive away.

Those units also benefit from in-race synergies as well. FD are one of the few units in the game who need another squad to perform their base function. Again, I'm not saying they need they need to be buffed, but this is one of the aspects that come with their design, which is why I've always felt they were a questionable purchase at the best of times.

Neither am I but they far outshine the combos from back in the days (brightlance + haywire, etc.).

That isn't much of an achievement.

A well setup ambush by Fire Dragons will spell doom for a lighter vehicle most of the time (I stand by that). Not always but most of the time.

A Farseer gate e.g. infiltrates your Fire Dragons and increases their movement speed by +2 to 8.5 which is faster than any vehicle can drive. It is also way faster than any melee unit can run so how will you tie them up? They can not be specialed (unless the special does ability knockback but no infantry unit does that afaik) while moving since they are immune to all but ability knockback. The Farseer can guide them at the same time and put Fortune on them and doom the vehicle. That should pretty much be it for that vehicle.

The Warlock will have to go for a less stealthed approach (unless he has Rangers available) but can put Distortion Field on them as well as use Swift Movement. The result should pretty much be the same as described above. Even more so if you approach from a good flanking position. If you so wish (and I have done so repeatedly) you can also use Channeling Runes to further increase their staying power.

The Warpspider Exarch only has the Crackshot global afaik and is thus not so well equipped to improve the Fire Dragons potential.

On top of all this, their damage type deals additional damage to SHI. That is why I mentioned the Eldar v SM matchup. Terminators do take additional damage whereas Dark Reapers or Warpspiders do not deal increased damage and even less damage in the case of Warpspiders.

In my opinion they are not OP but are a pretty good anti-all unit with good stats. Fast, reasonably sturdy, medium range, anti-all damage, and fit well in to the new Eldar as invisioned by Caeltos: extremely mobile.

Those kinds of attacks are dependent on your opponent not reacting, or leaving their vehicles overextended. In either case, Wraithguard still do the same job with better cost-efficiency and more utility. The thing about FD is that they're made of paper and bleed like a stuck pig. The power cost attached to them hurts the Eldar eco badly. I mean, it's still a viable strategy to focus down Warpspiders to lock an Eldar player out of buying other tech units because of how much power they cost to keep reinforced. FD are very similar, but with less range, no teleport, and taking additional damage from most of the stuff they're shooting at.

As for how melee units will catch them, simple. By baiting them. You put your melee squad in between the Dragons and your vehicle, and he's forced to either run a circle around, getting shot up in the process, or rush through, getting shredded in melee. Their knockdown resistance doesn't stop them from getting tied up, and most squads deal more than enough damage to wipe the floor with them. Then it comes down to choosing whether you should leave your vehicle stationary (rendering their FotM useless since they will end up punching it) or pulling back from another AV threat (which, so long as it is done carefully, shouldn't be a major issue).

Against Terms, FD have the same issue as DR. They do great work so long as the Terms don't shoot back. Given that DR have a massive range advantage, this is easier, safer, and much more cost-effective to do with them than with FD.

They are fast, but they aren't sturdy at all. I mean, one good doombolts volley will nearly wipe the squad. Their mobility is their only saving grace right now. They're moderately survivable against piercing damage, but that's about it really.

[Lichtbringer]

Well that is where the Eldar army scheme comes in. Their effectiveness partly comes from unit-synergy. The units you mentioned all have their perks built-in and it is justified that their weapons do not have the same stats as Fire Dragons. For example, if STs did not have their melta bomb, their weapons range would render them utterly useless even if the can infiltrate because that vehicle could just drive away.

[...] Neither am I but they far outshine the combos from back in the days (brightlance + haywire, etc.). [...]

[...] A well setup ambush by Fire Dragons will spell doom for a lighter vehicle most of the time (I stand by that). Not always but most of the time. [...]

[...] A Farseer gate e.g. infiltrates your Fire Dragons and increases their movement speed by +2 to 8.5 which is faster than any vehicle can drive. [...]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aJVwPNFsZc
Synergy from Guide and gates and a good trap , spell doom for a light vehicle even with a brightlance. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (hah, just noticed the "doom" "pun".)

Honestly at this point I don't care too much^^ Personally I don't really like using them, but if other people have success with them, great. If they get nerfed further, I couldn't really understand it, but in the end if that makes the game better for others its fine with me.

[Nurland]

I want to add Cloak of Luls, Enhance and Mass yoloport into the list. Heck, even Doom is great.

[SinisterLaugh]

About fire dragons - maybe they should resemble venom brood and have "armor piercing" damage type instead of melta?