IG imbalances

[BbBoS]

Aspiring Champion its male oriented unit. It has 45 damage per hit and +3 damage broke the game? Perhaps the opinion of those who have lost the game? As if there was not, to us it is irrelevant. GM has not focused on melee.

Guardsmen may not be a melee focused squad, but melee squads & some ranged squads will be forcing guardsmen to fight in melee and having a boost in melee damage by that much will be noticeable in early engagements throughout the game.

[_4ut_]

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?
https://youtu.be/xPV2H3KFi5M?t=18m56s

[_4ut_]

Aspiring Champion its male oriented unit. It has 45 damage per hit and +3 damage broke the game? Perhaps the opinion of those who have lost the game? As if there was not, to us it is irrelevant. GM has not focused on melee.

Guardsmen may not be a melee focused squad, but melee squads & some ranged squads will be forcing guardsmen to fight in melee and having a boost in melee damage by that much will be noticeable in early engagements throughout the game.

What example melee squads? Ranged squads? Do you mean Termagant and Avenger? Oh yes, I see every game as they give a kick to GM.

But can solve this problem in another way. Post Sergeant lasgun and simply remove the sword.

[Wise Windu]

Guardsmen reinforce cost is 18 for tow now (And we do not forget that this option does not always work correctly, as already discussed above.)

When does it not work correctly? Do you have any replays showing that? I've never heard of that bug.

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?

Can't actually tell if this is sarcasm, but if not, I very much doubt 10 melee damage will affect Paladins at all. The damage type is not great against SHI, and the damage is basically insignificant when compared to Paladins' total health.

[Nurland]

End the game before T3. Executioner Leman should be pretty nice. Also playing Inq would help there

Also nobody said that GM melee damage would help against T3 units. It would help against T1 squads.

[_4ut_]

Guardsmen reinforce cost is 18 for tow now (And we do not forget that this option does not always work correctly, as already discussed above.)

When does it not work correctly? Do you have any replays showing that? I've never heard of that bug.

Just read the discussion before responding to it.

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?

Can't actually tell if this is sarcasm, but if not, I very much doubt 10 melee damage will affect Paladins at all. The damage type is not great against SHI, and the damage is basically insignificant when compared to Paladins' total health.

Yes, it's sarcasm. It is surprising that it is necessary to explain it. And what should be the reaction of IG LC in this situation to win?

End the game before T3. Executioner Leman should be pretty nice. Also playing Inq would help there
Also nobody said that GM melee damage would help against T3 units. It would help against T1 squads.

But it was necessary to act in a situation on replay? LC. Leman? They are teleported to it and cut into pieces. And still need to wait until it was built. And then Leman be built, GK will have two Terminator squads.

[Wise Windu]

Guardsmen reinforce cost is 18 for tow now (And we do not forget that this option does not always work correctly, as already discussed above.)

When does it not work correctly? Do you have any replays showing that? I've never heard of that bug.

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?

Can't actually tell if this is sarcasm, but if not, I very much doubt 10 melee damage will affect Paladins at all. The damage type is not great against SHI, and the damage is basically insignificant when compared to Paladins' total health.

Just read the discussion before responding to it.

Very helpful, thank you. I have read the whole discussion, and the only reference I've found to the reinforcement not working was you saying

2 extra weak GM and reinforcement discount that not working properly.

which isn't helpful or insightful in any way. And if you're talking about the two models not reinforcing because they reinforce before two models die, that isn't a bug. It's how the upgrade works, and it's how the upgrade is stated to work. The discussion earlier in the thread was discussing whether or not the upgrade should be changed to account for that, not that it was bugged. Because, as Riku mentioned as well, it would also slightly affect IG economy. I'll ask again, do you have a replay or specific situation in which the upgrade doesn't work?

If you want to actually help to make it better, help me figure out where the issue is instead of being needlessly petulant.

Yes, it's sarcasm. It is surprising that it is necessary to explain it. And what should be the reaction of IG LC in this situation to win?

Hard to tell with people sometimes. Plasma Guardsmen, Executioner Leman Russ, anything that deals good damage to SHI.

[_4ut_]

I'll ask again, do you have a replay or specific situation in which the upgrade doesn't work?

I'm not saying that this is a bug. But in my opinion, it is not working as it should have been. After all IG Sergeant has only one ability, free reinforc. But it is not always free.

[Kvn]

You seem rather sure of your position given that you're willing to argue with Caeltos directly, but I'll try to weight in a bit as well.

Aspiring Champion its male oriented unit. It has 45 damage per hit and +3 damage broke the game? Perhaps the opinion of those who have lost the game? As if there was not, to us it is irrelevant. GM has not focused on melee.

It's not about whether the squad is focused on melee or not that is relevant. He's saying that an extremely minor change (+3 damage on a unit with already decent melee damage) flat out made them overpowered. What you're asking for is to more than double the Sergeant's melee capabilities. Huge changes like that have long reaching consequences.

Well, let's take a look at the picture in greater detail. Now we haw 4 serg dmg and 2+2 free gm dmg. 8 dmg for all. If serg dmg will increase to 10, in total it will 14dmg. Its greet male dmg? Not. How it impact on the game? Probably nothing, because GM not melee squad.

Believe it or not, GM squads can already win certain melee fights against other ranged units just due to how much staying power they have. Especially once you get a Commissar upgrade. Especially especially if you have a reinforcement point nearby.

Games where IG feels the worst. If in game 1v1 your GM stuck in the melee, and do not retreat, it is dead GM squad. Help them 10 sword against banshee, heretics, sluggaboyz, hormagaunt? No. Maybe it helps against Dire Avenger, without Exarch, and maybe not.

Banshees, heretics, sluggas, and hormas already have a hard time against IG because of how much ranged damage they have to endure just to get into melee, not even counting the amount of stuns/snares/cc abilities being brought out by things like the Sent and the hero. They have to be pretty bad in melee, or those units would be completely useless (debatably, they already are against the Inquisitor). Add in the fact that the Sergeant is a die-last model meaning he will always be doing his damage so long as the squad is alive, and you make his effectiveness skyrocket.

How can we know this effect without tests? Speculative. I doubt very much that all the players at the IG immediately begin to send their guards in melee to get this ephemeral advantage. Even LC. Execution' ability of the LC its own buf. And he continues to be the weakest IG character in T1.

Because we have precedence for these kinds of things already. As stated by Caeltos, similar, and much smaller buffs have been done in the past with huge impact results. Said buff doesn't have to make them into a full on melee squad to be a big deal. Just think about retreat killing for one example. That extra damage would noticeably increase how effective those squads are at killing fleeing units, which is one of IG's main shortcomings.

I've never understood why people think the LC is weak. I've had him as my secondary commander after the Farseer for a while now, and honestly he kicks ass. Sure he's not as straightforwards as the Lord General or as hard-lockdown as the Inquisitor, but his execution buffs and plethora of support abilities make him an absolute monster.

Low cost? Compared to what? Perhaps Baneblade. All T1 start squad has same or similar price. Sergant upgrade? Lets calculate.
85rec for 3 units. Guardsmen reinforce cost is 18 for tow now (And we do not forget that this option does not always work correctly, as already discussed above.). 85-18=67rec for 150 hp and 4 dmg. Here's something wrong already. And also do not forget that this is not just an efficient upgrade. This is a inevitable upgrade. Without it, GM simply walking dead. And yet if we consider the case, then we pay 295 reс for normal squad. But this is more than in the rest of the starting units. In 105 more than the same heretics. That still may cut GM melee. But GM can shoot them, if you're lucky or skillful. So again, it is not necessary to bring here LC, his ability is his own ability. While he was the weakest on T1. And such a small buff not prevent him. And then there's need to think about it. Execute guards when they are in close combat, they can`t retreat in time, most often it`s auto wipe him.

Low cost compared to literally every other squad leader upgrade in the game. The Sergeant is 85 rec 0 power which is a massive deal. All the other squad leaders you listed cost power, which in turn delays teching up, T1.5 units, and (in the case of non-die last models) makes them much more painful to replace when they go down.

And what about the upgrades on those other starting units? They cost money too, and most of them have a power price tag attached. IG was long renowned as the only faction which could get away with a power-free T1, and while that isn't as viable anymore given the need for tech units, their squads are still some of the cheapest and most efficient in the early game.

You vastly underestimate how useful the execute ability is.

So if you have something to say let's continue. Because while all this seems to be the fact that "I do not care at IG." "So everything is good." "This is a OP fraction and for Needless them to change something."

Now you're just being petty. That's not what he said at all. You're asking for a large, needless buff based on nothing else than visuals. You don't have the moral high-ground to stand on here.

Yes, I calmly accept the fact that this fraction is for advanced players. They are difficult to play. This is normal. I'm not asking to give the guards force weapons and heavy armor. Or do Spotter for free. I just do not understand unreasonably low damage of the sword. That may not greatly affect the game in general. And in fact it affects, it is impossible to know without testing.

Because guardsmen are designed to be bad in melee. They already do a decent job of it come T2 with their Commissar leader, so there's really no need for the buff. Just because something looks like it should work a certain way, doesn't mean it's a good idea balance-wise. Here's some other visual discrepancies made for balance purposes in the Eldar faction alone:

Rangers - Have sniper rifles, but can't one-shot anything bigger than an unupgraded Heretic model. Also carry power swords but deal regular melee damage.

Warlock - Merciless Witchblade deals regular melee damage despite carrying the appearance of a power weapon.

Dire Avengers - Team colored instead of being decorated in the blue armor of their shrine.

Wraithguard - 8 foot tall necromantic kill-bots, but can only punch as hard as a Dire Avenger.

Autarch - Executioner spear does power melee instead of heavy melee like the Banshee equivalent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it at that. Just because something is modeled a certain way doesn't mean it has to reflect that perfectly. The sword is purely for aesthetic reasons and to differentiate him from the normal guardsmen.

[_4ut_]

Now you're just being petty. That's not what he said at all. You're asking for a large, needless buff based on nothing else than visuals. You don't have the moral high-ground to stand on here.

Yes, I calmly accept the fact that this fraction is for advanced players. They are difficult to play. This is normal. I'm not asking to give the guards force weapons and heavy armor. Or do Spotter for free. I just do not understand unreasonably low damage of the sword. That may not greatly affect the game in general. And in fact it affects, it is impossible to know without testing.

Because guardsmen are designed to be bad in melee. They already do a decent job of it come T2 with their Commissar leader, so there's really no need for the buff. Just because something looks like it should work a certain way, doesn't mean it's a good idea balance-wise. Here's some other visual discrepancies made for balance purposes in the Eldar faction alone:

Rangers - Have sniper rifles, but can't one-shot anything bigger than an unupgraded Heretic model. Also carry power swords but deal regular melee damage.

Warlock - Merciless Witchblade deals regular melee damage despite carrying the appearance of a power weapon.

Dire Avengers - Team colored instead of being decorated in the blue armor of their shrine.

Wraithguard - 8 foot tall necromantic kill-bots, but can only punch as hard as a Dire Avenger.

Autarch - Executioner spear does power melee instead of heavy melee like the Banshee equivalent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it at that. Just because something is modeled a certain way doesn't mean it has to reflect that perfectly. The sword is purely for aesthetic reasons and to differentiate him from the normal guardsmen.

Yes, most of your arguments, I agree. But:
Cost.Normal value for the IG is 295 for a normal squad. This is nearly a third more than the others.
Other Sergeants that require energy, well-armed, have good stats, and awesom abilities. Did I ask something from this? Noup.

Large buff. Only in someone's head. As long as there is no test.

Nothing else than visuals. Warhammer lore is nothing for you? Ok. Then what's the problem replace the model with a sword, on model with lasgun? And comparative analysis of other Sergeants melee weapons, nothing too?

The rest of the examples are not so pretentious.
Rangers - haw huge 20 ml dmg.
Wraithguard - such slow, and they beat stronger than Dire Avenger, 10 dmg against 8.
Warlock, Autarch - it is normal for the balance.

[Caeltos]

Now you're just being petty. That's not what he said at all. You're asking for a large, needless buff based on nothing else than visuals. You don't have the moral high-ground to stand on here.

Yes, I calmly accept the fact that this fraction is for advanced players. They are difficult to play. This is normal. I'm not asking to give the guards force weapons and heavy armor. Or do Spotter for free. I just do not understand unreasonably low damage of the sword. That may not greatly affect the game in general. And in fact it affects, it is impossible to know without testing.

Because guardsmen are designed to be bad in melee. They already do a decent job of it come T2 with their Commissar leader, so there's really no need for the buff. Just because something looks like it should work a certain way, doesn't mean it's a good idea balance-wise. Here's some other visual discrepancies made for balance purposes in the Eldar faction alone:

Rangers - Have sniper rifles, but can't one-shot anything bigger than an unupgraded Heretic model. Also carry power swords but deal regular melee damage.

Warlock - Merciless Witchblade deals regular melee damage despite carrying the appearance of a power weapon.

Dire Avengers - Team colored instead of being decorated in the blue armor of their shrine.

Wraithguard - 8 foot tall necromantic kill-bots, but can only punch as hard as a Dire Avenger.

Autarch - Executioner spear does power melee instead of heavy melee like the Banshee equivalent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it at that. Just because something is modeled a certain way doesn't mean it has to reflect that perfectly. The sword is purely for aesthetic reasons and to differentiate him from the normal guardsmen.

Yes, most of your arguments, I agree. But:
Cost.Normal value for the IG is 295 for a normal squad. This is nearly a third more than the others.
Other Sergeants that require energy, well-armed, have good stats, and awesom abilities. Did I ask something from this? Noup.

Large buff. Only in someone's head. As long as there is no test.

Nothing else than visuals. Warhammer lore is nothing for you? Ok. Then what's the problem replace the model with a sword, on model with lasgun? And comparative analysis of other Sergeants melee weapons, nothing too?

The rest of the examples are not so pretentious.
Rangers - haw huge 20 ml dmg.
Wraithguard - such slow, and they beat stronger than Dire Avenger, 10 dmg against 8.
Warlock, Autarch - it is normal for the balance.

[_4ut_]

Very helpful, thank you.

"I do not care at IG." "So everything is good." "This is a OP fraction and for Needless them to change something."

Look, like I was right with it.

[Toilailee]

Err wut...

- GM sergeant is not comparable to other faction’s squad leaders to begin with because it _costs not power_. Your examples about the other races squad leaders make it seem like you have idea how the economy in the game works, you can’t just throw away 25 power whenever you feel like it.

- Yes, the 2 for 1 and 3 for 1 reinforce cost works 100% of the time. Only when you have lost less models than you could reinforce it’ll fail, as in with 8/9gm you still pay full price for 1 model.

- It is quite cheap, and not only when compared to a baneblade. And yes it is “required” upgrade if you wanna use gm in combat. So what, scouts, shootas and termagants have to spend power to be competitive. Besides it’s apples and oranges, the economies of each race are designed somewhat differently.

- Often times especially in the early game enemy range squads will tie up gm in melee, and giving gm sarge 10dps or whatever it is you meant would completely break that. Ig already have very strong anti melee capabilities so any plays where they actually get things into melee with gm should be rewarded, if gm were to roll scouts/shootas/guardians/termagants in melee it would break match ups. It would also make lone gm way better at side capping since they’d be able to deal with these squads on their own.

- Elite already indirectly buffed (or “fixed” in my mind) ig squad leaders by adjusting the ridiculous pop cap they had in retail which was a real issue. Before if you went 3gm you wouldn’t have wanted to get a 3rd sergeant because of that but now there’s not much reason not to.

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?
https://youtu.be/xPV2H3KFi5M?t=18m56s

First hwt was unlucky that it was just tearing down when it got jumped. Catas and 2nd hwt stayed in the fight too long and excecuting gm in that situation was a bad idea.
Do you honestly feel that ig should’ve won that particular engagement? Also did you notice that 1 plasma gm and 1 autocanon took out almost half the hp from the termies? If the ig didn’t lose the squads he would’ve easily won that game, he just got caught off guard. Ig has all the tools needed to deal with termies, and this has NOTHING to do with sergeant chainsword dps.

Gm sarge is perfectly fine imo and among the last changes I would change, this coming from an old ig player.

[saltychipmunk]

Yes, most of your arguments, I agree. But:
Cost.Normal value for the IG is 295 for a normal squad. This is nearly a third more than the others.
Other Sergeants that require energy, well-armed, have good stats, and awesom abilities. Did I ask something from this? Noup.

what? where the hell did you math? normal value of an ig squad is 210. for that you get 600 hp and 24.6 pierce dps
scouts are 420 hp for 23.8 perice dps at the same cost of 210
shootaboys are 600 and 35 for 270
das are 600 and 44 for 270

at 295 a guardsman squad with an upgrade is 940 hp and 36 ish dps that is a pretty huge gap in cost effectiveness.

and it is not even considering pop cap. that guardsman squad is only 9 pop with those stats. where as those other-squads with their leaders range from 12 to 15 pop which is a considerable hit on upkeep after a while.

so what if the opponents leader upgrades are better, for the amount of money they have to spend on those leader you can just buy and upgrade an entire separate guardsman squad.

Large buff. Only in someone's head. As long as there is no test.

or you can take one look at it and realise that when you buff something by more than 50% you should probably consider that a pretty huge buff.

Nothing else than visuals. Warhammer lore is nothing for you? Ok. Then what's the problem replace the model with a sword, on model with lasgun? And comparative analysis of other Sergeants melee weapons, nothing too?

if this were fluffy then a single tac marine should beable to kill off an entire guardsman squad with a butter knife and some zealous effort. but then that would be a pretty retarded piece of gameplay.

[Kvn]

Cost.Normal value for the IG is 295 for a normal squad. This is nearly a third more than the others.

You have an incredibly skewed perception on the costs of most squads. Here's some examples for the other starting squads.

DA - Base cost: 270 rec. Some people, myself included, prefer these guys unupgraded until T2, but most people will invest in them for their abilities. That brings their cost up to 335 rec 15 power with Aspect, or 420 rec 30 power with Aspect and Exarch.

Sluggas - If you want anything other than a capping unit, you need burnas, bringing their cost up from 270 rec to 350 rec 15 power.

Hormagaunts - again, if you want them to be useful in fights you need adrenal glands, raising the price from 240 rec to 290 rec 15 power.

Scouts - Same as previous two. Base cost is 210 rec. With a simple weapon upgrade to make them useful in a fight, you've got 285/15 for shotguns or 300/25 for snipers. Fully upgraded, they come in at a whopping 410/55 or 425/65 respectively.

Heretics - Default form is really only good for worship and repair nowadays. Specializing them brings their cost to 280/25 with Aspiring Champ or 265/20 for Grenade Launchers.

Compared to those prices, paying 295 rec and no power for your GM doesn't seem so bad, does it? That's not even getting into the long-term sustainability that comes from having your reinforcement costs effectively cut in half. Keep in mind, all these units offer different things to their respective factions, so simply saying "unit X costs more, therefor it is inferior" isn't a good thing. The reason I compared them here was simply to counteract your statement that GM were more expensive.

Other Sergeants that require energy, well-armed, have good stats, and awesom abilities. Did I ask something from this? Noup.

Awesome abilities? You mean like 1/2 reinforcement costs while getting two models out per tick? Sounds pretty awesome to me, and has flat out won me games quite a bit when I'm playing IG. Keep in mind the IG sarge still has a decent ranged attack to add to his squad.

Large buff. Only in someone's head. As long as there is no test.

You're asking for a 250% increase to his damage output. How you can call that small is beyond me.

There has been tests, as has been stated repeatedly. These kinds of buffs have been done in the past with gamebreaking results. If you choose to keep ignoring that fact, that's a shortcoming on your end.

Nothing else than visuals. Warhammer lore is nothing for you? Ok. Then what's the problem replace the model with a sword, on model with lasgun? And comparative analysis of other Sergeants melee weapons, nothing too?

Please stop putting words in other people's mouths. I love the lore. I really do. But there's a difference between making a lore-friendly game, and making one that's actually balanced. In a lore-friendly game, snipers would pick off units instantly from the opposite end of the map, IG would have 30+ man squads pretty much by default, Space Marines would be ungodly killing machines, and Eldar wouldn't even be in the game since they'd be in the background manipulating other races to fight in their place.

Replacing it with a lasgun makes no difference other than to remove his individuality. I have no strong feelings one way or the other, but I'd prefer he remained as-is for no other reason than because he looks cooler.

If it bothers you that much, just pretend he was recently promoted and has no training in hand-to-hand combat. A chainsword is only as deadly as the person holding it.

The rest of the examples are not so pretentious.
Rangers - haw huge 20 ml dmg.
Wraithguard - such slow, and they beat stronger than Dire Avenger, 10 dmg against 8.
Warlock, Autarch - it is normal for the balance.

Rangers- Their damage wasn't the point. Please stop ignoring what I'm saying.

Wraithguard - Are you seriously trying to pick apart a 20% damage difference after calling a 2.5x multiplier small...?

Warlock/Autarch - That's the point. That's literally the whole point of what I've been saying.

[_4ut_]

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?
https://youtu.be/xPV2H3KFi5M?t=18m56s

First hwt was unlucky that it was just tearing down when it got jumped. Catas and 2nd hwt stayed in the fight too long and excecuting gm in that situation was a bad idea.
Do you honestly feel that ig should’ve won that particular engagement? Also did you notice that 1 plasma gm and 1 autocanon took out almost half the hp from the termies? If the ig didn’t lose the squads he would’ve easily won that game, he just got caught off guard. Ig has all the tools needed to deal with termies, and this has NOTHING to do with sergeant chainsword dps.

Gm sarge is perfectly fine imo and among the last changes I would change, this coming from an old ig player.

Thanks for the answer.

Rangers- Their damage wasn't the point. Please stop ignoring what I'm saying.

Wraithguard - Are you seriously trying to pick apart a 20% damage difference after calling a 2.5x multiplier small...?

Warlock/Autarch - That's the point. That's literally the whole point of what I've been saying.

Rangers - But that's the thing. If their swords were only a decoration, then you would have been right. But they have 33 dps.
Wraithguard - Due to their size, they have a good armor. And due to their slowness bad melee. Everything is fair.

I love the lore. I really do.

I was glad to read it.

Yet I remain unconvinced that the sword buff will not have a strong influence on the game. Maybe I should fix this figure, and see how it plays with bots. Writing it all on video. Then I will have a strong case.

[Dark Riku]

...

GM reinforce works correctly, there are no bugs there.
The melee damage increase has been explained already. It's not some theory craft only.
Your only reason seems to be: must do chainsword melee damage because it's a chainsword. That's such a bad thinking pattern.
Again: If the chainsword bothers you so much you can remove the visual and soundeffect to be happy

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?
https://youtu.be/xPV2H3KFi5M?t=18m56s

Leman russes / plasma GM.

Yet I remain unconvinced that the sword buff will not have a strong influence on the game. Maybe I should fix this figure, and see how it plays with bots. Writing it all on video. Then I will have a strong case.

No, no you won't have even near a strong case. After reading everything you said it's crystal clear to me you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

[_4ut_]

...

GM reinforce works correctly, there are no bugs there.
The melee damage increase has been explained already. It's not some theory craft only.
Your only reason seems to be: must do chainsword melee damage because it's a chainsword. That's such a bad thinking pattern.
Again: If the chainsword bothers you so much you can remove the visual and soundeffect to be happy

And if we're talking about balance units. Can someone tell to me, how exactly IG need to counter GK terminators in such situation, or even 2! squads of them? Maby 10 dmg sword's, of his GM squads, will help?
https://youtu.be/xPV2H3KFi5M?t=18m56s

Leman russes / plasma GM.

Yet I remain unconvinced that the sword buff will not have a strong influence on the game. Maybe I should fix this figure, and see how it plays with bots. Writing it all on video. Then I will have a strong case.

No, no you won't have even near a strong case. After reading everything you said it's crystal clear to me you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

And it continues to be sick chainsword.
And I'm still glad that you read everything that I said.

[_4ut_]

And finally, I'll tell something. He did not even 4 dmg as in the wiki written. Only 3,5 lol.

Applause.

[Layer87]

What a discussion about sarge's chainsword! However, the damage per hit is rather low for a chainsword and this is not lorewise, IMO. Nevertheless, IG sergeants are not melee specialists, so they should not have a lot of melee damage per sec. So, maybe it is much better to increase the chainsword damage up to 8, but also increase its cool down (up to 1 sec for example)? So the damage per sec will be the same?..

[Deflaktor]

That would increase the "damage per burst". That would effectively double the damage output on retreating units since you would hit most likely only once either way. Changing values and keeping same DPS does not mean unchanged balance.

[Psycho]

If it bothers you that much, just pretend he was recently promoted and has no training in hand-to-hand combat. A chainsword is only as deadly as the person holding it.

I had fun thinking about that the other day. I've come to assume the chainsword for sergeants is just a ceremonial/sign of rank weapon and the guy doesn't even know how to use it, he's just swinging it around like an overglorified club too heavy to be used with one hand.

[HARRYY]

Holy.....

[Wise Windu]

And finally, I'll tell something. He did not even 4 dmg as in the wiki written. Only 3,5 lol.

Applause.

The sergeant's sword is ig_guardsmen_leader_sword, not the ig_sergeant_sword you're looking at there.

Applause.

[_4ut_]

If it bothers you that much, just pretend he was recently promoted and has no training in hand-to-hand combat. A chainsword is only as deadly as the person holding it.

I had fun thinking about that the other day. I've come to assume the chainsword for sergeants is just a ceremonial/sign of rank weapon and the guy doesn't even know how to use it, he's just swinging it around like an overglorified club too heavy to be used with one hand.

Yap.

[Nurland]

Oohkayy... Now I wouldn't mind subtle IG buffs for their 1v1 performance but this is getting out of control. Final warning before this gets locked.

Also remain respectful and keep it constructive.

[_4ut_]

And finally, I'll tell something. He did not even 4 dmg as in the wiki written. Only 3,5 lol.

Applause.

The sergeant's sword is ig_guardsmen_leader_sword, not the ig_sergeant_sword you're looking at there.

Applause.

Ok, i find it. Thanks for help.

Oohkayy... Now I wouldn't mind subtle IG buffs for their 1v1 performance but this is getting out of control. Final warning before this gets locked.

Also remain respectful and keep it constructive.

Sorry, did not see your post. I totally shut up.

[Atlas]

Holy.....

I was gonna just lock this topic, but I've decided to keep this open just to see how it all ends.

I will say this though- in my mind IG has now completed the Trinity of Crying with Eldar and Chaos now. Well done.

[Soberson]

Since every IG guy is here: do you like new HWT member count and their personal hp? I mean, if we are speaking of visual design here, they might as well come in bodybags tagged "GRENADE GOES HERE" right away

[Aguxyz]

Since every IG guy is here: do you like new HWT member count and their personal hp? I mean, if we are speaking of visual design here, they might as well come in bodybags tagged "GRENADE GOES HERE" right away

the new HWT is really good now esp with LC