IG imbalances

[_4ut_]

And my question again. I use Inspire terror to the enemy, but he continued to retreat. This is not a bug?

[Dark Riku]

Ofcource not! It's only to stop your own units from retreating.

[_4ut_]

Ofcource not! It's only to stop your own units from retreating.

Thanks, but it's sad. LC seems the weakest character in IG.

[Dark Riku]

Watch Noisy or Fr33man use the LC. I find him very powerful.

[Atlas]

New damage type for bane wolf that does almost nothing to gens.

Well with the Purgation change, the precedent is now there.

[Oddnerd]

Ofcource not! It's only to stop your own units from retreating.

Thanks, but it's sad. LC seems the weakest character in IG.

He has a steeper learning curve than the INQ and LG, but he can actually be the most dangerous IG commander to face if used properly.

[Tex]

Ofcource not! It's only to stop your own units from retreating.

Thanks, but it's sad. LC seems the weakest character in IG.

He has a steeper learning curve than the INQ and LG, but he can actually be the most dangerous IG commander to face if used properly.

pffff

I strongly disagree with him being the most dangerous.

He has some great combinations in T2, but he is soooooooo incredibly dependent on his sword and his flares and is rather easy to control. 2 suppression teams is the bane of commissar players everywhere.

[Helios]

Thanks, but it's sad. LC seems the weakest character in IG.

He has a steeper learning curve than the INQ and LG, but he can actually be the most dangerous IG commander to face if used properly.

pffff

I strongly disagree with him being the most dangerous.

He has some great combinations in T2, but he is soooooooo incredibly dependent on his sword and his flares and is rather easy to control. 2 suppression teams is the bane of commissar players everywhere.

Finally. Some one fucking gets it. The only thing dangerous about the Commissar is Bionic Eye. Oh noes watch everyone or he'll drop some land mines on you! "most dangerous", seriously?

[Soberson]

Finally. Some one fucking gets it. The only thing dangerous about the Commissar is Bionic Eye. Oh noes watch everyone or he'll drop some land mines on you! "most dangerous", seriously?

Now someone going to tell you to get good

[HARRYY]

Now someone going to tell you to get good

yeah, funny thing;)
People that don't play IG giving advices here, some even seem to play teamgames othets just hate IG because they lose to them. Any of the slight buffes suggested here, would big a big Drama to them because of exxxtreemer impact. They can't see IG is a fragile card-house. 1 oe 2 mistakes or wrong choice = GG.

I met jsut bias here. Pointless discussion, no objectivity.

There's an ork Balance Thread, but i dont go there to belittle any internal suggestion there since Im biased as fuck. For me, orks are a forgiving noobrace with little skill involved. They should instead nerf the shit out of orks to make them require at least some skill (know synergies, forced to use then, sometimes avoid Fights etc, more micro). I dont do this since im not objective on them. I leave it to those who know better.

My suggestion for IG are laughably slight. Im good enough at this game and im not asking for play-advices. I see top players lose frequently with LC , was top pretty quick as well, now i started playing experimental and lose a lot.
noisy even playing? Freeman plays teamgames. That not what I'm looking for.

[GuruSkippy]

There's an ork Balance Thread, but i dont go there to belittle any internal suggestion there since Im biased as fuck. For me, orks are a forgiving noobrace with little skill involved. They should instead nerf the shit out of orks to make them require at least some skill (know synergies, forced to use then, sometimes avoid Fights etc, more micro). I dont do this since im not objective on them. I leave it to those who know better.

well, the best way to change your mind about that is to play them.

[HARRYY]

well, the best way to change your mind about that is to play them.

I played them, point and click adventure

[GuruSkippy]

not in ranked in elite according to your stats.
try them, you'll change your mind, at least a little bit.

[HARRYY]

not in ranked in elite according to your stats.
try them, you'll change your mind, at least a little bit.

yes, unranked.
Ofc they have some disparities. But they have no glaring Balance-downsides or Design problems since zlthey got shipped with the first dawnofwar2 release..

[Tex]

not in ranked in elite according to your stats.
try them, you'll change your mind, at least a little bit.

yes, unranked.
Ofc they have some disparities. But they have no glaring Balance-downsides or Design problems since zlthey got shipped with the first dawnofwar2 release..

Harry...

Orks have always struggled against units with decent to high ranged dps and vehicle armor as orks only have a vehicle specific snare. Orks have also really struggled against well played vehicles in general.

Orks typically struggle against walls of heavy armor in T2 because they don't have standard forms of doing extra ranged damage to it. They rely on getting sluggas/storms into combat or landing stikkbombs and weirdboy shots.

Orks can really shine in T2 or T3, but it all depends upon getting there first.

Good positioning/scouting and winning battles on the periphery of combat (IE, having better capping matchups) is a crucial part of beating orks.

[Atlas]

I'm watching this thread very closely now, keep it constructive.

[Toilailee]

I've always found Ork vs IG to be among the most balanced match ups in the game. It has always been kinda funny tho in how it always made both sides rage about the other being OP in the match up... Just the way it played out often made it frustrating for both sides. Orks being unable to effectively kill chims or fight ogryns in T2. And IG dealing with weirdboy "countering" their whole roster and whatnot.

Anyway Harry I dunno how to say this without sounding too rude but you've always ranted on IG balance a lot. Even when Eldar vs IG match up was like 70% IG favored you were among the only ones to claim the opposite. And yes there were aspects in Eldar mid to late game that were strong vs IG but overall the match up was still quite heavily IG favored. I've never seen you play much, and I watched a looot of replays and casts in the GR days, but I've seen probably hundreds of IG balance posts by you all more or less complaining about IG having a hard time vs X. Soo... I kinda subconsciously skip your posts.. lots of rant and theorycrafting, not enough pewpew.

Buut I haven't played this game much in a long time and I'm out of date with the last 3-4 patches so I could be wrong.

[HARRYY]

Toilailee, I have achieved nothig special and i dont considrr myself as a "pro player". Never been friends with the snobby elitists. i hope you feel better now. I admit Im the same whiny noob as always... .just btw. or as a little side-note, I've uploaded 200reps on gr, whixh still means shit and I Was top30 for long time which is irrelevant for me, too. I dont make a top story of it. Not my way.

With my ork-flame i just gave an example of what I'm NOT doing (im not going into a ork Balance Thread and say NO to ork-buff suggestions since Im biased and I dont know internal stuff and I do NOT give advices to ork players, while I don't play the race. Its fruatrating to diacuss with people giving " advices" that clearly dont play ig , or play teamgames. Seems like i was misunderstood. Or im just a noob at expressing myself properly. Or people just want to pick on stuff while trying to distract from my concern.

This mod did a lot to spacemarines and adjusted alot of things whixh whiny people (SM players) complaoned about. Now they have their mod, caeltos delivered. Yes, i love to exagerate things. It's polarizing and you people don't feel too bored

I just tried to talk some IG stuff, tried to put down a Spotlight on IG .im not suggesting crazy stuff here.
Seems im wrong here. Im out. Cheers.

[Dark Riku]

pffff
I strongly disagree with him (edit: LC) being the most dangerous.

Execute plays can be really punishing, possibly wiping units.
Disclaimer: Just an example why others might say he can be the most dangerous. Not trying to say your opinion is wrong or something.

@Harry, many people discussing these things here are very knowledgeable about the 1v1 scene.
Noisy is a very good example to look at for 1v1 plays. I can't imagine people disagreeing with that :/
Your suggestions are not laughably slight at all. Making a unit go from 30 to 0 power is a very big deal, especially when they counter units that do cost power.
Elite Mod SM Mod? Everything has to be said for a first time at some point I guess?

[_4ut_]

I'm now watching this thread very closely now, keep it constructive.

All we need it's a real sword for the sergeant. 10-20 damage will be enough. On balance it will not be affected. But all IG players Feel better and more comfortable, knowing that their words, too, are listening.

[Dark Riku]

Damage per hit or per second? 20DPS is half the dps of a default FC and only 6 dps less than a tac sarge or LC leader...
The sarge does not need a dps increase. If the chainsword bothers you so much you can remove the visual and soundeffect to be happy

[Crewfinity]

Damage per hit or per second? 20DPS is half the dps of a default FC and only 6 dps less than a tac sarge or LC leader...
The sarge does not need a dps increase. If the chainsword bothers you so much you can remove the visual and soundeffect to be happy

Yep. IG sarge is mostly a reinforcement discount rather than a legit squad leader like a tacs sarge or commissar. If he got good stats as well I think he would have to cost power to be fair. Remember he also brings the dps of 2 extra guardsmen as well as halving their reinforcement cost.

[Metal C0Mmander]

Damage per hit or per second? 20DPS is half the dps of a default FC and only 6 dps less than a tac sarge or LC leader...
The sarge does not need a dps increase. If the chainsword bothers you so much you can remove the visual and soundeffect to be happy

Yep. IG sarge is mostly a reinforcement discount rather than a legit squad leader like a tacs sarge or commissar. If he got good stats as well I think he would have to cost power to be fair. Remember he also brings the dps of 2 extra guardsmen as well as halving their reinforcement cost.

I fail to see how it would change that much either ways. It's not like guardsman will be in melee that often enough even then. You have the aspiring champion sword that deals 34 dps but you still don't see any grenade launching heretics going in melee. But if you're not going to change the damage then it would be nice to have the sargeant use a lasgun to make it clear what he does. And if you bring tactical squads that punch people as an argument of unrealistic damage then I'll say super humans in power armor. Heck I'll even bring out the fact that until I checked their damage today I thought it was a good idea to have scouts force melee on retreat.

[Ace of Swords]

Damage per hit or per second? 20DPS is half the dps of a default FC and only 6 dps less than a tac sarge or LC leader...
The sarge does not need a dps increase. If the chainsword bothers you so much you can remove the visual and soundeffect to be happy

Yep. IG sarge is mostly a reinforcement discount rather than a legit squad leader like a tacs sarge or commissar. If he got good stats as well I think he would have to cost power to be fair. Remember he also brings the dps of 2 extra guardsmen as well as halving their reinforcement cost.

I fail to see how it would change that much either ways. It's not like guardsman will be in melee that often enough even then. You have the aspiring champion sword that deals 34 dps but you still don't see any grenade launching heretics going in melee. But if you're not going to change the damage then it would be nice to have the sargeant use a lasgun to make it clear what he does. And if you bring tactical squads that punch people as an argument of unrealistic damage then I'll say super humans in power armor. Heck I'll even bring out the fact that until I checked their damage today I thaught it was a good idea to have scouts force melee on retreat.

IG sarge does see melee fights, because you will usually want to melee down IG squads, and as GMs are right now, they really don't need any buffs.

[Forestradio]

Torpid and Fredbrik were both players who used LC and did extremely well against high level competition both inside and outside of tournaments. Sadly neither is active, but perhaps they'll be back eventually.

Aguxyz also plays LC, as does Tex. And both of them imo are capable of beating any player in the game with LC.

Fr33man's focus might be on 2v2/3v3 these days but he's still better than a good deal of the community, dismissing his experience is simply not valid.

edit: forgot about Stoned elf and Myrdal probably because they're such quiet reserved badasses

[Lulgrim]

New damage type for bane wolf that does almost nothing to gens.

I would be very careful about adding unique damage types and making the mechanics even more of a mess. They should rather be logical and intuitive. The flame_aoe_ability_pvp type could be used for this, although it's a bit of a workaround instead of optimal design.

[brutalisto]

Torpid and Fredbrik were both players who used LC and did extremely well against high level competition both inside and outside of tournaments. Sadly neither is active, but perhaps they'll be back eventually.

Aguxyz also plays LC, as does Tex. And both of them imo are capable of beating any player in the game with LC.

Fr33man's focus might be on 2v2/3v3 these days but he's still better than a good deal of the community, dismissing his experience is simply not valid.

edit: forgot about Stoned elf and Myrdal probably because they're such quiet reserved badasses

Yeah what happened to Fredbrik? He disappeared just like that?

[_4ut_]

Damage per hit or per second? 20DPS is half the dps of a default FC and only 6 dps less than a tac sarge or LC leader...
The sarge does not need a dps increase. If the chainsword bothers you so much you can remove the visual and soundeffect to be happy

Of course a hit. 10 damage per hit, do not make the game. Do not make the IG OP. But they reflect a real sword in hand, and not a mockery of 4 damage.

Yep. IG sarge is mostly a reinforcement discount rather than a legit squad leader like a tacs sarge or commissar. If he got good stats as well I think he would have to cost power to be fair. Remember he also brings the dps of 2 extra guardsmen as well as halving their reinforcement cost.

2 extra weak GM and reinforcement discount that not working properly.
>If he got good stats
About what stats are you talking about? I'm not saying that we should give it 350 hp and give power choppa 85 damage.
10 damage per hit would be enough to show the sword.
Maybe we should look at what is obtained sergeants remaining fractions of the 15-25 energy? Power Weapon. Cool abilities. Good stats.






And yet you say that do damage to the sword as the sword (10) is crazy buff who break the whole balance of the game? Insane.

[Caeltos]

Did you know that I once upon a time gave the Aspiring Champion for Chaos Space Marines a whooping +3 damage.

Do you know what the results were? It absolutely broke the game in certain matchups. I removed the +3 damage from it, and it was back to fine.

You severely underestimate the damage increase, and the effiency of additional of damage one can inflict. The damage can be sufficient enough to assert pressure, or turn a fight in your favor. What you're also going to miss out is the potency of a butterfly-effect, where it's not just one sergeant present in the game. Normally, you'll see at least two Guardsmen with sergeants, if not more - thus the damage increase amplifies in it's effiency furthermore. We're only considering the 1v1 aspect at this time, and it's already sending out warning signals.

Now, we add the problem into 2v2s and 3v3s, and suddenly - guardsmen en-masse can quickly become a problem for both ranged (effective bleed ratio potency) as well as the melee-deterriance might falter due to guardsmen being more potent to stand-up and fight even in raw-engagement. Again, a 10 damage adds up to +20 damage from the Commissar 'Execution' ability.

10 damage is 10 dps for the squad. You consider the wind-up and wind-down(animation) both being respectively 0.5 wind-up and 0.5 wind-down. This means your proposal is a +6 dps increase in melee, which is A BIG DEAL for a very-low cost squad, and espicially for a sergeant upgrade that is pretty light in it's cost effeciency ratio. So again, your proposed Sergeant melee dps would be 20 under the effect of a Commissar execution.

I could go on and on, but this seems like such a pointless proposition, with no thought behind it - with the exception of "Hey, it's a sword, it should do sword damage".

[_4ut_]

Did you know that I once upon a time gave the Aspiring Champion for Chaos Space Marines a whooping +3 damage.

Do you know what the results were? It absolutely broke the game in certain matchups. I removed the +3 damage from it, and it was back to fine.

Aspiring Champion its male oriented unit. It has 45 damage per hit and +3 damage broke the game? Perhaps the opinion of those who have lost the game? As if there was not, to us it is irrelevant. GM has not focused on melee.

You severely underestimate the damage increase, and the effiency of additional of damage one can inflict. The damage can be sufficient enough to assert pressure, or turn a fight in your favor. What you're also going to miss out is the potency of a butterfly-effect, where it's not just one sergeant present in the game. Normally, you'll see at least two Guardsmen with sergeants, if not more - thus the damage increase amplifies in it's effiency furthermore.

Well, let's take a look at the picture in greater detail. Now we haw 4 serg dmg and 2+2 free gm dmg. 8 dmg for all. If serg dmg will increase to 10, in total it will 14dmg. Its greet male dmg? Not. How it impact on the game? Probably nothing, because GM not melee squad.

We're only considering the 1v1 aspect at this time, and it's already sending out warning signals.

Games where IG feels the worst. If in game 1v1 your GM stuck in the melee, and do not retreat, it is dead GM squad. Help them 10 sword against banshee, heretics, sluggaboyz, hormagaunt? No. Maybe it helps against Dire Avenger, without Exarch, and maybe not.

Now, we add the problem into 2v2s and 3v3s, and suddenly - guardsmen en-masse can quickly become a problem for both ranged (effective bleed ratio potency) as well as the melee-deterriance might falter due to guardsmen being more potent to stand-up and fight even in raw-engagement. Again, a 10 damage adds up to +20 damage from the Commissar 'Execution' ability.

How can we know this effect without tests? Speculative. I doubt very much that all the players at the IG immediately begin to send their guards in melee to get this ephemeral advantage. Even LC. Execution' ability of the LC its own buf. And he continues to be the weakest IG character in T1.

10 damage is 10 dps for the squad. You consider the wind-up and wind-down(animation) both being respectively 0.5 wind-up and 0.5 wind-down. This means your proposal is a +6 dps increase in melee, which is A BIG DEAL for a very-low cost squad, and espicially for a sergeant upgrade that is pretty light in it's cost effeciency ratio. So again, your proposed Sergeant melee dps would be 20 under the effect of a Commissar execution.

Low cost? Compared to what? Perhaps Baneblade. All T1 start squad has same or similar price. Sergant upgrade? Lets calculate.
85rec for 3 units. Guardsmen reinforce cost is 18 for tow now (And we do not forget that this option does not always work correctly, as already discussed above.). 85-18=67rec for 150 hp and 4 dmg. Here's something wrong already. And also do not forget that this is not just an efficient upgrade. This is a inevitable upgrade. Without it, GM simply walking dead. And yet if we consider the case, then we pay 295 reс for normal squad. But this is more than in the rest of the starting units. In 105 more than the same heretics. That still may cut GM melee. But GM can shoot them, if you're lucky or skillful. So again, it is not necessary to bring here LC, his ability is his own ability. While he was the weakest on T1. And such a small buff not prevent him. And then there's need to think about it. Execute guards when they are in close combat, they can`t retreat in time, most often it`s auto wipe him.

I could go on and on, but this seems like such a pointless proposition, with no thought behind it - with the exception of "Hey, it's a sword, it should do sword damage".

So if you have something to say let's continue. Because while all this seems to be the fact that "I do not care at IG." "So everything is good." "This is a OP fraction and for Needless them to change something."

Yes, I calmly accept the fact that this fraction is for advanced players. They are difficult to play. This is normal. I'm not asking to give the guards force weapons and heavy armor. Or do Spotter for free. I just do not understand unreasonably low damage of the sword. That may not greatly affect the game in general. And in fact it affects, it is impossible to know without testing.