Scout sniper reinforce

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 1:13 am

Can the 6 power on their reinforce be taken out now that they're not as powerful as they used to be? They still die the same and now that their damage is nerfed they really aren't worth the constant bleed of power that they bring.
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Asmon
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Asmon » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 11:36 am

Uuh, no, not possible. Unless we agree rangers models won't cost power either, which would be stupid, especially with the recent buffs Caeltos introduced.

And I think it's already a shame shotgun scout models don't cost power.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 12:19 pm

agreed. the current version of both units dont have enough field presence to justify a power bleed .

I would rather the cost increase be moved to the infiltration upgrade since normal snipers , as i said, kind of lack the field presence to justify the reinforce hike.

but that is not so much the case when you have the infiltration upgrade as well. and this is true even for scouts with shotguns. the difference in proper survivability between infiltrated shotgun / snipers and non infiltrated ones is quite substantial.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby DandyFrontline » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 12:28 pm

Asmon wrote:
And I think it's already a shame shotgun scout models don't cost power.


Well, lets make then every t1 unit with some weapon upgrade cost power.

Yea, after sniper nerfs the energy cost for reinforce sounds ridiculous. Atleast they got nice range of fire so they dont bleed you too much. Eldar rangers atleast got kinetic shot and, with upgrade, group infiltration and some courage damage.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Kvn » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 2:37 pm

DandyFrontline wrote:Yea, after sniper nerfs the energy cost for reinforce sounds ridiculous. Atleast they got nice range of fire so they dont bleed you too much. Eldar rangers atleast got kinetic shot and, with upgrade, group infiltration and some courage damage.


To be fair, Scout Snipers can get crazy health regen with their infiltrate upgrade, plus a melee-deterrent grenade and added durability from sarge.

In my personal opinion though, I'd rather see snipers in general get a performance boost rather than a cost reduction. In their current form, they just feel so... wimpy, for lack of a better word. They don't bleed your opponent, and with Rangers, they pretty much stop functioning in early T2 as anything other than a scouting/occasional light disruption/backcapping unit. Kind of like Spotters, only with one shell and no scaling. I can understand that the suppression bonus was meant as a buff, but it just doesn't do much. Or at the very least, not enough to make a difference. Don't know if the same is true for scouts or not since they can still repair and have a tankier frontline to hide behind, making continuous shots easier to achieve (SM main would have to comment on that one), but I've rarely seen a situation in which snipers are the preferred choice to, say, a GWT or just unit upgrades anymore.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 6:30 pm

There is nothing wrong with infiltration or shotguns. Snipers are just not worth it for SM in any scenario from what I've seen. They have a set-up/de-setup to give an opponent an opportunity to bleed them back after they do their snipe and now snipers don't do anything worth needing that gimp. If the power cost is going to stay, the setting/desetting up time is going to have to go. This will actually help in SM mirrors against the popular Shotgun+Sarge Scout only being able to be fought by another Shotgun+Sarge Scout in a Scout duel.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby WoehlkeTAD » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 6:56 pm

I think part of the problem comes in when the opponent upgrades their squads to include a leader. I have gone triple snipers on multiple occasions have put three rounds into guardians squads with their leader and not one model dropped. Then there isn't any time for a second round of fire if the opponent reacts. I've seen the same thing with ork shootas if they have a squad leader. Three rounds will likely kill one guardsman in a squad with a leader but that's just one guardsman. Typically the snipers need infiltration to really be useful because it gives them more staying power, but the cost is easily punished in tier 2. I generally only go snipers against GK or OM and have not really found double or single snipers to be useful in any situation. Doubles against SM and CSM sometimes.
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Ace of Swords
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Ace of Swords » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 7:54 pm

I really CBA to go back to the math of new snipers, but overall rangers were nerfed and scouts were unchanged (IIRC the damage was halved but so was the fire rate, unlike rangers which got a small fire rate reduction and a damage nerf as well, so overall scout DPS was more or less unchanged).

That said, rangers still retain cheaper detection and infiltration as well as a better detection range and ranged KB which counterbalances that fact that scouts do more damage and the sniper upgrade is 25 power instead of 30(35?) and costs less req as well, so all in all, they are both fine as they are right now, damage and cost (reinforced included) wise.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby WoehlkeTAD » Sat 19 Mar, 2016 4:26 am

I'm not sure of your ranger vs. scout defense Ace. Scout snipers do less dps but more damage on a shot. The initial shot volley of 10 extra damage is well surpassed by the 10 extra range that rangers have vs. scout snipers. If you throw in the kinetic pulse ability they start with and add it to the the initial volley then they actually do 15 damage more and are set up to take a second volley allowing for the higher dps to kick in. Whereas scouts would generally need to tear down and walk away after a first volley. Then hey why not add in courage damage to rangers for absolutely no reason to synergize with other t1 units. That's all at a base cost of 285/25 for scout snipers vs. 300/30 for rangers.

Other small differences that lean towards scouts would be players are rewarded more for killing rangers than for killing scout snipers, and scout bolters do more damage than the shuriken pistols. Scouts also have one more movement speed, plus for them, but rangers have 10 more health per model. But these are relatively small differences. Throw in the much bigger differences of rangers have obs to start and scout snipers don't, and it talks half a second less to tear down for rangers then scout snipers are blown out of the water. I don't feel the small scout squad advantages make up for mere initial 15/5 additional cost rangers have. They just have a better kit at that stage.

I don't want to see players have an incentive to spam snipers, they should have a utility aspect just like rangers do, maybe give them a snipe ability like the tech marine's, maybe give them the sniper ability only if they have the sergeant, instead of giving them a grenade, but right now they are pretty useless without the extra investment into them. an investment that is easily punished in tier 2
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sat 19 Mar, 2016 6:41 am

Ace of Swords wrote:I really CBA to go back to the math of new snipers, but overall rangers were nerfed and scouts were unchanged (IIRC the damage was halved but so was the fire rate, unlike rangers which got a small fire rate reduction and a damage nerf as well, so overall scout DPS was more or less unchanged).

That said, rangers still retain cheaper detection and infiltration as well as a better detection range and ranged KB which counterbalances that fact that scouts do more damage and the sniper upgrade is 25 power instead of 30(35?) and costs less req as well, so all in all, they are both fine as they are right now, damage and cost (reinforced included) wise.


DPS has nothing to do with it. When a sniper shoots you, you shoot him back or jump on him with jump troops. This works as the teardown time gives an opportunity to do so. Rather than do 180 damage and then get forced off they do 90 and get forced off.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Ace of Swords » Sat 19 Mar, 2016 5:23 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:I really CBA to go back to the math of new snipers, but overall rangers were nerfed and scouts were unchanged (IIRC the damage was halved but so was the fire rate, unlike rangers which got a small fire rate reduction and a damage nerf as well, so overall scout DPS was more or less unchanged).

That said, rangers still retain cheaper detection and infiltration as well as a better detection range and ranged KB which counterbalances that fact that scouts do more damage and the sniper upgrade is 25 power instead of 30(35?) and costs less req as well, so all in all, they are both fine as they are right now, damage and cost (reinforced included) wise.


DPS has nothing to do with it. When a sniper shoots you, you shoot him back or jump on him with jump troops. This works as the teardown time gives an opportunity to do so. Rather than do 180 damage and then get forced off they do 90 and get forced off.


Teardown was reduced as well for both, especially if you have infiltration you can easily get away with snipers, this is a fact, considering you fire from FoW and the other player needs to react by first identify your position and then jump on it (assuming it's vs raptors/asm etc) you have all the time to move away from the landing zone of the jump troops, effectively speaking, you can catch the snipers with them only if they stood in the same spot to fire twice.



WoehlkeTAD wrote:I'm not sure of your ranger vs. scout defense Ace. Scout snipers do less dps but more damage on a shot. The initial shot volley of 10 extra damage is well surpassed by the 10 extra range that rangers have vs. scout snipers. If you throw in the kinetic pulse ability they start with and add it to the the initial volley then they actually do 15 damage more and are set up to take a second volley allowing for the higher dps to kick in. Whereas scouts would generally need to tear down and walk away after a first volley. Then hey why not add in courage damage to rangers for absolutely no reason to synergize with other t1 units. That's all at a base cost of 285/25 for scout snipers vs. 300/30 for rangers.

Other small differences that lean towards scouts would be players are rewarded more for killing rangers than for killing scout snipers, and scout bolters do more damage than the shuriken pistols. Scouts also have one more movement speed, plus for them, but rangers have 10 more health per model. But these are relatively small differences. Throw in the much bigger differences of rangers have obs to start and scout snipers don't, and it talks half a second less to tear down for rangers then scout snipers are blown out of the water. I don't feel the small scout squad advantages make up for mere initial 15/5 additional cost rangers have. They just have a better kit at that stage.

I don't want to see players have an incentive to spam snipers, they should have a utility aspect just like rangers do, maybe give them a snipe ability like the tech marine's, maybe give them the sniper ability only if they have the sergeant, instead of giving them a grenade, but right now they are pretty useless without the extra investment into them. an investment that is easily punished in tier 2


Rangers are a specialist unit, scouts aren't, but can be upgraded to be either anti melee or attrition, currently rangers are better because they suppress but scouts work well for SM because they are flexible in what they do and in the way they do it, overall they cost more with full upgrades but usually with scout snipers you don't need to purchase everything, sometimes you may want the sarge for detection, some other times you might just want the infiltration, some other times the sniper rifle alone will cut it, it all depends or some other times you will just get shotties which cover a completely different role.
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sat 19 Mar, 2016 6:02 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Teardown was reduced as well for both, especially if you have infiltration you can easily get away with snipers, this is a fact, considering you fire from FoW and the other player needs to react by first identify your position and then jump on it (assuming it's vs raptors/asm etc) you have all the time to move away from the landing zone of the jump troops, effectively speaking, you can catch the snipers with them only if they stood in the same spot to fire twice.


Teardown on Scouts is still 1.5 and Rangers are 1. I don't know about Rangers, but Scouts have always been 1.5. Sound is directional in this game and most players can guess where they are based on game knowledge alone. Even if you miss your jump by a bit you will still be close and can spot them before the teardown is complete or if infil kicks in (which is not immediate).

I'm honestly not here to argue tactics because I already know what they are and how to use them. I just don't think Scout snipers are useful the way they are now. If they are going to keep their expensive reinforce I think their setup/teardown needs to be changed so they can be used more aggressively. I am talking about 1v1's and not team games. Team games are more about dps and the late game while 1v1's are more about being aggressive and map control.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Forestradio » Sat 19 Mar, 2016 7:54 pm

scout snipers are fine for the most part, they are a niche unit, and most definitely situational, a scout sniper is not a generalist unit that performs well in most matchups like sarge+shotgun, they need to be bought at certain times on certain maps (siwal comes to mind) and it's there they will shine. Their scaling is also not great so they need to be used to get ahead in t1 otherwise you'll be in a bad spot but if you use them properly they do just that.

As for their 1v1 state, well this replay can't be viewed now even if you install 2.4.2 cuz gg relic patching, but they are definitely useable: https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/14240344

a req cost decrease would not be out of the question, to 75 req or something, but they are fine, and even so it's better to have up niche strategic units than stupidly overpowered auto-buy units (2.4 operatives come to mind...)
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Broodwich
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Broodwich » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 1:20 am

I'd tend to agree, snipers are really a buzzkill to play against and i don't want them buffed so they are a no brainer purchase
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Lag
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Lag » Tue 22 Mar, 2016 4:20 pm

Snipor abuser here. Snipors are fine.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 27 Mar, 2016 3:24 am

Don't know why I didn't think of this sooner.

35/2 = 17.5/3 = 5.8 = 6
25/2 = 12.5/3 = 4.1 = 4

The power cost of snipers were changed, but their reinforce wasn't changed with it.
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Asmon
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Asmon » Sun 27 Mar, 2016 5:04 am

Reinforcements can be priced at any value, not necessarily a third of half a model cost. That's up to Cael if he chose not to lower it.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 27 Mar, 2016 6:39 am

Asmon wrote:Reinforcements can be priced at any value, not necessarily a third of half a model cost. That's up to Cael if he chose not to lower it.

Dividing by half and then again on how many members are in the squad is pretty uniform with a few exceptions. Don't think Scouts snipers are that powerful though I don't really take 3v3 seriously so it might be useful there.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 27 Mar, 2016 11:55 pm

That looks like an oversight to me. Care to share on this Caeltos?
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Caeltos
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Caeltos » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 7:24 pm

Will look into it.
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Re: Scout sniper reinforce

Postby Torpid » Tue 05 Apr, 2016 2:25 am

Ace of Swords wrote:I really CBA to go back to the math of new snipers, but overall rangers were nerfed and scouts were unchanged (IIRC the damage was halved but so was the fire rate, unlike rangers which got a small fire rate reduction and a damage nerf as well, so overall scout DPS was more or less unchanged).

That said, rangers still retain cheaper detection and infiltration as well as a better detection range and ranged KB which counterbalances that fact that scouts do more damage and the sniper upgrade is 25 power instead of 30(35?) and costs less req as well, so all in all, they are both fine as they are right now, damage and cost (reinforced included) wise.


The dps is fallacious though because the fact of the matter is that snipers do not operate like tacs in cobmat -> they don't sit in cover and trade shots with foes. Therefore dps is irrelevant. What matters if how many shots it takes to kill since thye will pop over shoot and then flee - they cannot sit around and trade shots or they die too fast and the power bleed is AWFUL.

Fact of the matter is they don't kill most units in 1 anymore. Not even termagants under synapse or with their upgrade. It was a gigantic nerf for sure.

That said. I think it's fair and I think they have a role still. I think removing the power cost would be fair but they should receive no other buffs.

OK, I realise this was already addressed and apologise for the mild necro. Still an interesting thread and after having used scout sniper recently after returning I admit they are lackluster.
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