Patch 2.5.1

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Caeltos
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Patch 2.5.1

Postby Caeltos » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 5:24 am

Patch 2.5.1

Full installer: http://dawnofwar.info/dow2-elite-2.5.1-installer.exe
Update http://dawnofwar.info/dow2-elite-2.5.1-update.exe (from 2.5.0)

NOTE: Backup up your custom color schemes. If you made any, they will be overwritten by the installer.

Patch 2.5.1
Bug Fixes
* Dark Reaper Exarch not propertly applying the vision upgrade fixed (Maybe)
* Fixed Interceptor Squad not having their proper weapons
* Fixed the broken Army Painter and Last Stand stuff - now compatible with Relic additions
* Phase Shift now gives the correct duration of damage resistance after ending (5 seconds)
* More tweaks to LC execute abilities, and a fix to the LC getting stuck if target moved out of line of sight
* Stuff I haven't listed here.

General
* Some tweaks to D-Cannon weapon values to make it hit terrain less often
* Minor fixes to (6p) Graesark Undercity by Indrid
* (6p) Avensa Stronghold v1.3.1 by Indrid
* Further AI updates by KanKrusha

Space Marines
The goal is to promote more Librarian play and be rewarded for it. Shifting away the dependancy on lighter-vehicles or Walker playstyles in various game-modes.
* Increased Librarian ranged bolter damage from 14 to 30.8
* Librarian Gate of Infinity cooldown reduced from 40 to 30
* Librarian Ranged-Staff damage increased from 40 to 50

Chaos
Plague Marines are currently overperforming, the aim is to reduce their effectiveness against infantry and open up the the ease of dealing with them.
* Reduced the Plague Marine damage over time damage from 1.35 down to 1.0
* Increased the build time on Plague Marine from 27 to 32s
Chaos Autocannon is currently doing a wee-bit too much damage against everything. It might not be enough, but we'll see how this pans out.
* Chaos Havoc Autocannon damage reduced from 60 to 55
With the new reinforcement cost and pricing of Heretics, a new cost increase for 'strong' sergeants for Chaos Space Marines is in order.
* Chaos Raptor Aspiring Champion cost increased from 80/25 to 100/25

Imperial Guard
Kaskrins are slightly underperforming given their cost investment at the moment. So they're given some quality of life changes to their melee damage potential to easier punish certain squads in melee range. (Most noticeable on early-game ranged squads with medicore melee damage), whereas the Kaskrin Sergeant grants more utility to allow the Kaskrin to relocate to key locations faster.
* Kasrkin Sergeant now grants 'Move it(placeholder)!' ability which allows the Kaskrins to break suppression and grant +2 speed for 6s. Energy cost 50, cooldown 60s
* Kasrkin melee damage (with all weapons) increased to 12.

Ordo Malleus
The Psilencer is designed to be an effective anti-infantry/heavy infantry weaponry , however it can have some slight overeffiency for it's cost versus other arsenal in the Ordo Malleus arsenal for dealing with larger blobs of infantry. Psycanon removed from the Grey Knight Terminators to solidify the intended role for Grey Knight Terminators to be a strict anti-infantry based specialized variant, whereas Paladins/Interceptors are ideal for countering vehicles.
* Purged by Fire is no longer a channeled ability, and now instead leaves a "Charred" area where enemies stepping into the area takes 3 flame_dps and are slowed for 50% in the area. Area radius reduced from 15 to 12. Lasts for 5 seconds.
* Set new damage type for purgation flamer
* Psilencer splash radius reduced from 3 to 1
* Grey Knight Terminator Psycanon has been replaced with Psilencer (Shares similiar weapon statistics to that of the Strike Squad, but has 25 damage (from 23)
* Purifier squad cost reduced from 450/75 down to 450/65
* Grey Knight Rhino build time increased from 32 to 40 seconds
* Grey Knight Rhino Lascannon build time increased from 15 to 30 seconds

Eldar
While not adjusting the sniper profile damage, the ranger shuriken pistols can now more effectively peel damage on incoming enemies if the sniper failed to take out a target. Alternatively, the courage damage should aim to help the shoot & move mechanics if the target is supressed whilst charging head-on against rangers.
* Ranger Shuriken Pistol damage increased from 12 to 18 (dps from 5,25 to 7.875?)
* Ranger Shuriken Pistol courage damage increased from 2 to 6
Dark Reapers are getting some improvements to help them scale further-on into T3 and act more as a staple-force for ranged-oriented combat for Eldar. With the recent health increase to Dark Reapers, they are more capable of bleeding less, so the shift in cost is to reflect their new performance.
* Dark Reaper cost increased from 400/30 to 440/40
* Dark Reapers weapon range increased from 44 to 48
* Dark Reaper Pinning Fire is now no longer acquired by Aspect of Reaper
* Aspect of Reaper moved from T2 to T3
* Aspect of Reaper now grants +0.5 speed and 15% damage to the squad
* Autarch shield energy:damage ratio from 4:1 to 5:1

Ork
The Wartrukk can be a nuissance to kill, whilst the performance of the Wartrukk is performing as expected, the return-value for killing it is quite low. Losing a Wartrukk will now have more subtle-consequences.
* Wartrukk experience increased from 200 to 300
* Increased Wartrukk red from 18 to 22


Tyranids
The Zoanthrope needs to be realigned with it's new effiency, so it's getting a small power cut.
* Zoanthrope cost reduced from 400/60 down to 400/50
* Changed Hive Tyrant Venom Cannon splash aoe to 180 degrees and moving accuracy decreased to 0.5 from 1
* Lictor Alpha sight range reduced from 45 to 38 (normalized for Tyranid heroes)
* Lictor Alpha energy cost increased from 45 to 60
* Lictor Alpha Assault Leap damage reduced from 35 piercing to 20 piercing
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The_Convertant
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby The_Convertant » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 5:42 am

Lictor Alpha energy cost increased from 45 to 60

Do you mean fresh hook?
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Cyris
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Cyris » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 5:45 am

This new format is a wonderful change, bravo! I'm tired now, I'll prolly write stuff tomorrow. My favorite is the General section.
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Caeltos
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Caeltos » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 5:49 am

The_Convertant wrote:
Lictor Alpha energy cost increased from 45 to 60

Do you mean fresh hook?


Sorry, it's 6:50 here in the morning and I haven't gone to bed. Fixed it! :D
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 6:16 am

Really like this format. Gives us more insight on your ideas, which let's us give you better and more constructive feedback :)

Like the libby buffs. Lately it's felt like the meta has been dominated by anti-all units and fast teching to vehicles. Anything to swing the gameplay to more niche, micro heavy units is a good change imo. I'm still shit at using him but this will give me incentive to get better with this guy.

PM nerf was well deserved, can you elaborate on their DOT values? Chaos changes look solid overall. Personally I think you could really give the nerf bat a swing but this will definitely address a lot of common complaints.

New purgation ability looks much more streamlined and a lot less rage inducing. I would like to see it coupled with a rotation speed increase for them, trying to reposition them at all is a really frustrating process.

Also I think flamer dread and Las Rhino could still use some tweaks. Maybe a shorter wind up on the lascannon? Currently it's next to useless unless it's stationary, since any command after targeting a vehicle will cancel the attack.

Fuuuuuck yesssss purifier buffs :D
Is their reinforcement cost going to be lower as well?


I like the direction you're going with reapers. They didn't have much of a niche last patch but their design space is getting better with each iteration. Long range heavy hitters is a good way to go imo.


Very good changes here, excited to see the general stuff!


Hehe inner circlejerk XD
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby egewithin » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 6:51 am

Good patch as always Caeltos.

Caeltos wrote:With the new reinforcement cost and pricing of Heretics, a new cost increase for 'strong' sergeants for Chaos Space Marines is in order


Now this is not cool. I always complain about Chaos leaders die too easy and now with a worse punishemnt? I am not sure what exacly you call as '' strong '' but I hope there is a good reason for it. I don't want to see KCSM Champion cost increased, that would force me to NEVER buy him ever again. I am okay with Raptor one however. He deserves it. But other leaders needs a good reason for that cost increase.

Btw, I hope Heretic Champion is not one of the strong leader you call. I know Heretics are cheaper but come on; they do less damage, less better anti-melee and now costs much more even? I hope I am wrong about it.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 9:50 am

With the new reinforcement cost and pricing of Heretics, a new cost increase for 'strong' sergeants for Chaos Space Marines is in order.

Can't understand the reasoning on this. Heretics now are cheaper and cheaper to reinforce, yes, but also their Doomblast damage is almost halved and their melee damage was nerfed too, making them even more irrelevant in later tiers as a melee squad. But you make that sound as you were buffing Heretics and you need to nerf Raptor Aspiring Champion in response.

Still, could have a little nerf, but the price increase is excessive if we have in mind the design of the squad and how much punish could have a bad jump.

Well, at least you have the decency of put strong in "", because is not that Chaos have the best squad leaders, with Heretics' AC in a squad which is more a more support oriented though patches and the CSM' AC which upgrade can easily call it "another guy in the squad".
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 10:34 am

Good format :)

Chaos
No problem with those changes.
Do consider tic performance in melee though, right now it feels like an overnerf.

Tyranids
Zoa used to be 40 though :p
I wouldn't mess with the moving accuracy on the HT VC. No zoan snare is already punishing enough.
Better option would be to reduce the splash damage. Because that's where the problem lies imo. It being so good versus infantry too.
Why reduce the LA's sight range? He's supposed to be the lone hunter :)
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby BbBoS » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 10:54 am

Caeltos wrote:Patch 2.5.1
General
SOMETHING QUITE BIG BUT I DUNNO IF I WANT TO SHARE. MAYBE ILL POSTPONE FOR ANOTHER TIME. I NEED TO ASSEMBLE THE INNER CIRCLE FOR FEEDBACK


By far the most influential change this patch, look forward to it!

It's also nice to see Dark Reapers get some changes, I hope to see more DR's on the field! :D
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 11:03 am

BbBoS wrote:I hope to see more DR's on the field! :D
More Dark Riku's on the field, yes pls.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby HARRYY » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 11:21 am

I like the changes, the formatting is good.


would like to see more ork-nerf TBH in form of a "power-tax" on T2 wargear/upgrades/units whatsoever. Their tech-speed is still a serious problem when I consider their T3 goodies. I really wonder this has not been tweaked already in the ELITE mod.

Also hoped for more courage nerfing the chaos autocannon :D
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby egewithin » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 11:26 am

I hope that the new change is the Slaaneshi hero. Btw, why it hasn't been reliesed yet?
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 11:40 am

Very good job on the format. It is informative enough to give us the insight needed to process the information presented.

I really like the Libby changes. I always thought that this guy is slightly underused for what he gives to the SM army. That might be because I watch too many Max Power streams though 8-) Don't you think that he might need a cost adjustment with the proposed changes?
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Swift » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 11:49 am

Welcome, fellow integer.

Dark Reaper changes to appease Choko? :]

Joking aside, looks good, interested to see what sort of sneaky plans you have. I'll also be releasing some updated maps for 2.5.1.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Soberson » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 12:22 pm

Can't wait to try Meleesrkins out!

New format is perfect, eliminates most of "what were they thinking" kind of questions
Last edited by Soberson on Thu 10 Mar, 2016 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Sturnn » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 12:32 pm

Caeltos wrote:General
SOMETHING QUITE BIG BUT I DUNNO IF I WANT TO SHARE. MAYBE ILL POSTPONE FOR ANOTHER TIME. I NEED TO ASSEMBLE THE INNER CIRCLE FOR FEEDBACK


Nemesis Dreadknight :)
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Forestradio » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 1:01 pm

Image


On a serious note this patch looks great, no complaints (for once huehue) from me. Now that the sm libby can actually kill stuff in ranged combat maybe the inspiration buffs will be more noticeable. Dark reapers are gonna be great as well, esp combined in a falcon.

Crewfinity wrote:Is their reinforcement cost going to be lower as well?

Should be,drop from 13 power to 11 power.


Also, inner circle? What inner circle????????? Image
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Lesten » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 1:34 pm

I'm not sure about Dark Reapers. Though I probably just don't know how to use them. They will be a bit better in T3 I guess, but not sure why I should get them in T2.

They will be more expensive and their bleed will cost more, and they will do 10% less damage in T2. They get pinning fire for free, sure, so I guess that kind of compensates for it (but you get less things with their aspect for 65/25). Extra range is fine and all, but ranged units tend to just wander closer to the enemy anyway, whether they have range 20 or range 120. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but often when I order a ranged unit to attack, they move almost to melee range even if the target is within their range the whole time (no, they're on ranged stance). Then I have to spend precious seconds to order them to stop and attack again.

Don't think the Rangers' pistols will change much really, they won't use their pistols unless they're close anyway, and if they are THAT close I tend to move them away instead. (But then again, they often spread out weirdly, so maybe they'll get to use their pistols.) And it won't help with what I see as their main problem: poor scaling.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Helios » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 2:51 pm

Any chance of revisiting Whiteshields?
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Caeltos » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 3:37 pm

Helios wrote:Any chance of revisiting Whiteshields?


Maybe in the future, but not for the time being no.

Dark Reapers blah blah etc


I should probably mention that, Dark Reapers might get a small damage increase via the Exarch or from the get-go. For a unit comparison sake, the damage is fairly behind on the CSM Mark of Tzeentch counterpart - but that's fine for T2, but Dark Reapers should have the range superiority. Whereas in T3, Dark Reapers more or less catch-up by then, and have the range to back it up. That's the short version of it.

Don't you think that he might need a cost adjustment with the proposed changes?

Possibly. I'm not a particular good fan of the investments you have to do on the Librarian, I don't think they reflect his cost vs effiency very well to be fair.

I hope that the new change is the Slaaneshi hero. Btw, why it hasn't been reliesed yet?

Lost my PC with all the work on him. soooooo ( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)

would like to see more ork-nerf TBH in form of a "power-tax" on T2 wargear/upgrades/units whatsoever. Their tech-speed is still a serious problem when I consider their T3 goodies. I really wonder this has not been tweaked already in the ELITE mod.


2.5.1 is scheduled to be released post-patch after Relic patch comes out. It's more of a 'Hotfix' patch, so I'll keep the major ones for another time.

Also hoped for more courage nerfing the chaos autocannon


It's important to note that it's not just -5 damage. The whole volley damage took a harder hit. May not be sufficient, but we'll see. :)

Why reduce the LA's sight range? He's supposed to be the lone hunter :)

It's just normalized now for all Tyranid Heroes to have 38(5) range.

Can't understand the reasoning on this. Heretics now are cheaper and cheaper to reinforce, yes, but also their Doomblast damage is almost halved and their melee damage was nerfed too, making them even more irrelevant in later tiers as a melee squad. But you make that sound as you were buffing Heretics and you need to nerf Raptor Aspiring Champion in response.


It's more about the general economy infrastracture improvement for Chaos. I'd like to think of them treated more like glorified rippers (from vanilla) who were awful combat units, but offerered a stable flow of income due to the bleed effect outcome. 80/25 for a Power Fist / Melta Pistol is pretty much a bargain, and 100/25 is a better price to reflect those weapons. I didn't want to throw in another upgrade for just an exclusive Power Fist/Melta Pistol for a Sergeant upgrade.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby saltychipmunk » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 3:45 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Good format :)

Chaos
No problem with those changes.
Do consider tic performance in melee though, right now it feels like an overnerf.


I think the nerf to tic melee is fine. I was always under the impression that they should be a cheap soft counter to melee , rather than a cheap hard counter to melee and a softcounter to low squad count armies in the early game.

those 2 - 3 tic zergs were just as if not more dangerous than 2 -3 squad zergs of actual melee races while costing notably less. i am glad now that their melee prowess actually reflects their cost.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Thibix Magnus » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 3:56 pm

Lesten wrote:I'm not sure about Dark Reapers. Though I probably just don't know how to use them. They will be a bit better in T3 I guess, but not sure why I should get them in T2.


Dunno for 1v1 but it opens further a dimension for eldar team gameplay with joint forces layered in two mobile lines, in situations where WG are not suited to keep the pace of an allied army (your dear friends tank/meatshield for you while you pick priority threats).

Lesten wrote:.......Don't think the Rangers' pistols will change much really, they won't use their pistols unless they're close anyway, and if they are THAT close I tend to move them away instead. (But then again, they often spread out weirdly, so maybe they'll get to use their pistols. help with what I see as their main problem: poor scaling
I wonder how they spread the pistol damage. If they tend to focus the model targetted by the main sniper it could help finish this wounded guardsman before they waste the next shot for 10 hp. This is a lot of precaution given to a single mon keigh life in the grim dark future however ;)
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Cyris » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 4:39 pm

This is a new high water mark for you Cael. This patch is super timely, gives greatly appreciated insights into your thoughts, and address a number of issues that have been raised in the time leading up to and after 2.5. Bravo.
While I think there are reasonable arguments for rolling patches out more slowly, and not "caving" to community pressure, I personally like more frequent balance tweaks and a closer relationship between devs and community. This should be a labor of love more then a job, and there's no corporate sponsor making sure everything is PC. Take advantage of that!

Anyway, my thoughts:

Chaos
PM: Can we get a sense of how much reduced damage you're thinking?

The rest sounds good. -5 damage on the autocannon is -15 for a whole burst, which while small is a nice cautious step.

I remain unconvinced that melee tics need love, the unit has been an over preforming crutch for years. If anything, perhaps a small req increase to nade launcher purchase price.


Imperial Guard
I just recently convinced myself that Kasrkin are pretty weak right now, so adding this ability on sounds great. With increase movespeed/suppression breaking/150 courage/increase cap speed this guy is going to be a side-capping MACHINE. I like focusing them on support or utility roles over raw damage, which GM seem to provide efficiently enough. I also like whenever a energy based unit has more spells then they can cast, it makes energy management more interesting and levels more valuable.

Consider auto-cannon nerf here too plz. I've always found it more potent in the IG roster then Chaos. Getting 2 HWT is super common and strong for IG, and the model count/health buff from last patch is just gonna make this more problematic.
Some data: Chaos AC and IG AC have the same range, damage and burst, but the IG one takes 2s between volleys, while the Chaos one takes only 1s. So as of 2.5, the Chaos one is clearly more damaging. -5 damage to Chaos will reduce it's burst relative to IG, but keep it's dps better.

Ordo Malleus
I have really mixed feelings about the Psilencer change.
Setting aside the AOE for a moment, this is a weapon that deals the same dps as a SINGLE TCSM inferno bolter, but with less spike damage, no FOTM and the removal of the SS important melee special. And while the Mark is more expensive, it gives this weapon to all 3/4 squad members, while the SS gets one. It also looks real bad when compared to the Tac Plasma gun, in both I and HI dps.
On the other hand, every faction is of course a unique snowflake, and the AOE does exist. I think SS currently scale too well for their cost/T1 dominance, so a nerf to this weapon seems reasonable. And I cannot really grok what the difference between AOE 3 and 1 is in a practical sense. But I worry this is going to be an incredibly inefficient upgrade. Is AOE 1 big enough to hit multiple smarmy models? At how much damage dropoff? I would love to see labs on the before and after.
I feel this weapon needs to focus on either AOE, or having a special damage type, not both. If it's too inefficient at both roles, it's not really going to be worth purchasing.

Purgation change I don't understand, nor do I know what problems there were with the current ability that you are trying to fix. If it makes it more responsive and able to be used more reliably on unsupressable targets like HT/CL, I'm all for it!

I'm SUPER in favor of GK Termies losing their psy-cannon. They no longer need soft AV in the context of GK T2/3. I have the above concerns over the Psilencer though, and the 50% fotm on top of it. The specific damage / AOE differences on the Termie version of the weapon are relevant here to keep it a viable choice.

Purifier buffs sorely needed and deeply appreciated.

Crewfinity wrote:Also I think flamer dread and Las Rhino could still use some tweaks. Maybe a shorter wind up on the lascannon? Currently it's next to useless unless it's stationary, since any command after targeting a vehicle will cancel the attack.

And +1 to these comments. I feel like (I should lab it, but lazy) that the flamer dread also stops firing if it starts moving mid-burst. Both of these units lose shots or missfire or pick terrible targets very often, which is painful given their low rates of fire.

Eldar
Extra courage/normal damage on range 28 pistols seems irrelevant. Rangers that get this close to enemies have already messed up real bad. In practice, after taking a shot against advancing enemies, you must move backwards or bleed models, which means your backs are to the enemy even if they get closer then 28 (ie: no shooting). Bonus range on the pistols would be much more relevant then increasing damage / courage.
Unless the courage damage goes up enough that a long-rifle shot + pistol followup could suppress a unit from 100 courage. The numbers don't look that way though, but a change like that would be really interesting. Heck, you could even drop the pistol range further in that scenario, making Rangers more potent at stopping melee who rush at them. While Rangers are a lot of fun, their cost (350/45) and scaling still feels too high to field often, especially when shuries help solve your immediate T1 problems.

LOVE the DR changes. I mean, I don't know if they are a net buff/nerf, but they make DR a more specialized and unique role (long range damage) and that's a good step. I can't wait to play with the changes listed. T3 scaling is also appreciated for them. Exarch changes you teased will go even further.

Sad at the lack of shee work.

Orks
Ork fast tech too fast, Trukk too efficient with T1 squads + OP Slugga Nob (yeah, I'm a bit butt-hurt right now, maybe I should be playing as orks). I don't see how leveling my AV faster is gonna help, though I appreciate that it's being looked at.

Tyranids
Seems fine. I think Zone is fine at 60 power, but whatever.

I would prefer HT VC had other aspects of it changed then the FOTM, but glad it's being looked at.
Last edited by Cyris on Thu 10 Mar, 2016 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby saltychipmunk » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 4:53 pm

i don’t buy the psilencer on strikes. its only really useful vs blobs of infantry... which is redundant because the strikes already do a shitload of pierce damage (which is only good vs .. you guessed it infantry) better to just upgrade to a justicar get the passive damage upgrade and spend the 25 power on other more important things.

the purifiers really did need a power cost change. i just hope that is enough of a step considering they will still be a heavy power bleed when they take losses .


the purgs were nerfed because people though they were over performing. but a 50% slow is not really that much of a slow , you get your aoe off by a little bit and you might end up with a few squads being snared only for a second or two before the 50% remaining movement speed gets them out of the small aoe.
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Psycho » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 5:00 pm

Still nothing for guardsmen's deployable cover? Aw. We'll see in 2.6 then.

Loving the changes for kasrkin though. I can see it used to also tie up another unit in melee in a rush without it being a suicide mission, or two if you grenade the first unit and melee the other. At least now they'll have greater damage than grenade launcher heretics in melee.

On that matter, can the minimum range on grenade launcher heretics (or grenade launcher units as a whole) be reviewed? In the situation where a guardsman squad is against a GL tic squad the former can't run in and 'hug' them because the tics will just shoot the models furthest away or engage in melee since they have 6 melee damage and comparable model count against the guardsmen's 2 melee damage. In practice they have pretty much no minimum range. This applies to most units that want to get close enough to them but dont want to melee them for whatever reason. They already have the knockback ability to keep you away (they usually have more than one GL tics) and 55 max range that forces you to either tank the damage or keep moving to suffer that moving accuracy. Heretics are squishy and have that huge range, they're not supposed to be so close to an enemy in the first place either seeing as they even lose doomblast.

At least it'd open up another way against them other than dancing around at the GL's max range to have a chance to dodge them completely, since the closer the tics are, the faster the grenades 'travel' by virtue of having less distance to cover. Same thing applies to their knockback ability too.

Or if I'm being stupid keep it like it is. I hate GL units in the first place because I play is IG so it could be a biased suggestion :P .
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Crewfinity
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 5:05 pm

Something to note for purgation: since the ability isn't channeled anymore, there shouldn't be any furthe issues with one member staying still to use it and the other two walking up to give the approaching melee squads a hug -_-

I wouldn't consider this a straight up nerf to purgations; even if the ability isn't as good as it used to be, increased consistency should more than make up for it.


@ sorc you may be a bit biased ;)

You should be using your sentinel to deal with GL tics rather than using your squishy GM squads. However, if you want to try to slug it out with your infantry you should be able to win if you get the sergeant and stay on top of your micro. You don't want to engage them in melee, but their grenades travel slow enough that if you keep moving you should be able to avoid them, even at medium ranges. Try shift clicking a bunch so that you don't have to manually move your GM squad every second or so and see how that works :)

I remain unconvinced that deployable cover needs any change.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 6:21 pm

Caeltos wrote:
Why reduce the LA's sight range? He's supposed to be the lone hunter :)
It's just normalized now for all Tyranid Heroes to have 38(5) range.
But why was this needed? The farseer has more sight range than the other 2 Eldar heroes, should here sight range go down? LG/INQ have 50 sight range. while most heroes have 40 sight range, including the LC. Felt appropriate for the LA to have more sight range is what I'm saying.
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HARRYY
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby HARRYY » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 6:25 pm

Cyris wrote:Orks
Ork fast tech too fast, Trukk too efficient with T1 squads + OP Slugga Nob (yeah, I'm a bit butt-hurt right now, maybe I should be playing as orks). I don't see how leveling my AV faster is gonna help, though I appreciate that it's being looked at.
dude, Ive never played orks but I did some matches 2 days ago for the first time (havent got the best opponent tho, but for me it proves the point that its no challenge at all). I went Warboss, supported by 2x slugga,1x BS, wartrukk, nob upgrades, T3 ..... it worked every time. It was super chilled, intuitive, point and click adventure like, everything worked so easy with the confidence that after my wartrukk I can go T3. nobz or looted coming very soonish to end the game. roks seal the deal.

it just felt like losing to orks in VANILLA: disappointing
now, me on the other side.
still very unsatisfying.

mcboy+knob are a bit different and require more skill. the players that mastered ORks are like unbeatable more or less.
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Soberson
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Soberson » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 6:43 pm

On the matter of "appropriate" sight ranges and intuitive teching: why do IG Spotters have 45(5) sight which lower than ST squad 50(5). You'd think that Spotter can help to utilize Stormtroopers' increased firing range with Assault kit but turns out Spotters themselves need someone to spot for them
#IGisFINE
Guy gamer.
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Crewfinity
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Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 10 Mar, 2016 6:52 pm

harrysonn wrote:dude, Ive never played orks but I did some matches 2 days ago for the first time (havent got the best opponent tho, but for me it proves the point that its no challenge at all). I went Warboss, supported by 2x slugga,1x BS, wartrukk, nob upgrades, T3 ..... it worked every time. It was super chilled, intuitive, point and click adventure like, everything worked so easy with the confidence that after my wartrukk I can go T3. nobz or looted coming very soonish to end the game. roks seal the deal.

it just felt like losing to orks in VANILLA: disappointing
now, me on the other side.
still very unsatisfying.

mcboy+knob are a bit different and require morning skill. the players that mastered ORks are like unbeatable more or less.



My experience is the opposite. Knob and mek require much less skill than warboss to play efficiently against a high level opponent, since they are so much better at dealing with suppression teams than the warboss. I suspect you just need to face better opponents who are more used to shutting down orks/warboss and you will have less stellar results. Nobs really aren't that good right now. Sluggas are better vs infantry and nobz kind of suck vs vehicles now that tanks are faster and walkers have melee resistance. If you're playing someone who isn't good you can win with just about any build you choose and a minimal amount of effort.

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