Patch 2.5.1

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 7:11 pm

does the sm razor back under perform? (in your opinion)

i mean looking at stats it appears to be the least useful transport of the lot by far.

another question. what would happen if we forced the las cannon on the gk rhino in the same way we force the bolter on the sm razor back?

that could give a good enough excuse to raise the price and build time of the rhino while eliminating the rather large source of easy pierce damage it gives.

if either wants the alternative you can make it a costly side-grade much like how dreads can get sidegrades that are obviously inefficent from a cost - performance ratio but work because they change up the roles of the unit.

It is not like gk needs more anti light infantry anyway so limiting them to the obviously less useful (for killing infantry) lascannon seems like a novel way to add flavour and balance to the gk line up.
User avatar
Ace of Swords
Level 5
Posts: 1493
Joined: Thu 14 Mar, 2013 7:49 am
Location: Terra

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 7:19 pm

SM razorback is fine, but yeah it would make sense to have the GK one have it's cost increased and come with a turret mounted on it already, actually, if that happens, would is be necessary to keep the stormbolter it comes with by default?
Image
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 7:24 pm

if the default is the bolter turret. no
if the default is the las cannon i would say yes for the same reason why the falcon has shuri weapons in addition to its venom cannon damage.

the las cannon only does half the damage of the turret (in terms of raw dps) which means while it is kiting and moving it would not be doing a ton of damage either way. the inclusion of the storm bolter would be a nice situational dps reward for stopping the rhino and actually fighting the enemy but it would do next to nothing if it is microed poorly

thoughwith the las cannon that would mean bumping the gk rhino to 70+ power atleast
Tex
Level 4
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat 27 Jul, 2013 9:33 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Tex » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 4:09 am

GK rhino is over performing hard. Its a completely different dynamic than what the razorback brings to SM.

Because purgs are being purchased in T1 and are scaling beautifully into T2, I think that the rhino las cannon needs to have a much more penalizing purchase cost. I'm agreeing almost exclusively with the camp that says the vindicare assassin is completely obsolete this patch.

Also, on a chaos note, I don't mind so much that heretics are doing less in melee now, and also that noise marines have been made less of an instant grenade shutdown unit, but I think some love needs to be spread onto some other sources to compensate. What I'm looking at are 2 things: Slaughter cooldowns are lowered a fair bit, raptors get a 5% hp buff in T1.

I'm thinking what this does is it still carries the significant nerf to chaos T1, and transfers a little love to a unit that has been competing for the same position with other units.

Thoughts?

More to come I'm sure
User avatar
Aetherion
Level 2
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue 12 May, 2015 6:53 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Aetherion » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 2:01 pm

Tex wrote:
Because purgs are being purchased in T1 and are scaling beautifully into T2, I think that the rhino las cannon needs to have a much more penalizing purchase cost. I'm agreeing almost exclusively with the camp that says the vindicare assassin is completely obsolete this patch.

Also, on a chaos note, I don't mind so much that heretics are doing less in melee now, and also that noise marines have been made less of an instant grenade shutdown unit, but I think some love needs to be spread onto some other sources to compensate. What I'm looking at are 2 things: Slaughter cooldowns are lowered a fair bit, raptors get a 5% hp buff in T1.

I'm thinking what this does is it still carries the significant nerf to chaos T1, and transfers a little love to a unit that has been competing for the same position with other units.

Thoughts?



I'm curious about why you say the vindicare is obsolete? I find it to be a excellent vehicle assassin (as well as infantry it bleeds eldar so hard). In conjunction with the las rhino are probably all the AV you are going to need (until T3 and LRs and paladins come out)

Also, yes on Chaos T1 needing a bit of buff and T2 needing a bit of nerf (autocannons, PMs). Slaughter needing a buff....? I'm not too sure about that, suddenly you get a unit that does better than raptors in cc whilst they've been blasting at you with near warp spider level of dakka.
CREED FOR THE PLAN GOD
ELDRAD FOR THE DICK THRONE
just as planned
User avatar
Crewfinity
Level 4
Posts: 712
Joined: Tue 03 Dec, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 2:13 pm

Aetherion wrote:
I'm curious about why you say the vindicare is obsolete? I find it to be a excellent vehicle assassin (as well as infantry it bleeds eldar so hard). In conjunction with the las rhino are probably all the AV you are going to need (until T3 and LRs and paladins come out)

Also, yes on Chaos T1 needing a bit of buff and T2 needing a bit of nerf (autocannons, PMs). Slaughter needing a buff....? I'm not too sure about that, suddenly you get a unit that does better than raptors in cc whilst they've been blasting at you with near warp spider level of dakka.



because for about the same cost you can get a speed 8 rhino with 500 vehicle armor that reinforces your army, does way more damage, bleeds eldar way harder than the vindicare and with purgation can shut down most vehicles you need to deal with. as far as an initial t2 purchase rhino is better in pretty much any way.
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Patch 2.5.1

Postby Nurland » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 4:48 pm

I would rather not buff Raptors but actually buff the Heretic AC so that he gives extra damage for the doomblast and maybe a small damage bonus to the squad.

Right now AC Tics are rather underwhelming based on my experiences as Chaos or as another faction dealing with them. Doomblast is worth it only if you absolutely need the suppression (stop squads from advancing or prevent kiting). This is fine with vanilla Tics but less so with AC Tics.

You give up damage, durability and resources if you use doomblast now. Even more so with AC Tics as they have more hp (translates into more damage potential) than vanilla Tics.
#noobcodex
User avatar
Lost Son of Nikhel
Contributor
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed 13 Feb, 2013 4:26 pm
Location: The Warp

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 4:55 pm

Nurland wrote:I would rather not buff Raptors but actually buff the Heretic AC so that he gives extra damage for the doomblast and maybe a small damage bonus to the squad.

Right now AC Tics are rather underwhelming based on my experiences as Chaos or as another faction dealing with them.

2 X 1 reinforce passive in T2, maybe?

According with the last changes, IMHO is the best trait you could give them.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

There will be no forgiveness for us.
User avatar
egewithin
Level 5
Posts: 1144
Joined: Mon 26 Jan, 2015 7:08 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby egewithin » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 5:14 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:2 X 1 reinforce passive in T2, maybe?


HEY ! Why not? That is a cute idea. Heretics are not as dangereous as before and bleeding alot even if they were good. I tried 3 tic into deamons play but the bleeding is real, really real. I would like to see that happen.
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby saltychipmunk » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 6:00 pm

Crewfinity wrote:
Aetherion wrote:
I'm curious about why you say the vindicare is obsolete? I find it to be a excellent vehicle assassin (as well as infantry it bleeds eldar so hard). In conjunction with the las rhino are probably all the AV you are going to need (until T3 and LRs and paladins come out)

Also, yes on Chaos T1 needing a bit of buff and T2 needing a bit of nerf (autocannons, PMs). Slaughter needing a buff....? I'm not too sure about that, suddenly you get a unit that does better than raptors in cc whilst they've been blasting at you with near warp spider level of dakka.



because for about the same cost you can get a speed 8 rhino with 500 vehicle armor that reinforces your army, does way more damage, bleeds eldar way harder than the vindicare and with purgation can shut down most vehicles you need to deal with. as far as an initial t2 purchase rhino is better in pretty much any way.


and i fucking called it. the vindi being a bad buy should have been extremely obvious the moment the 2.5 patch notes hit.


raptors are fine. nothing need be done too them. hell chaos probably doesn’t deserve access to a jump unit considering all the other stuff that is going their way.


as for the ac tics. i think they are fine . going ac really shouldn’t be an auto buy anyway . and there are still situations where it is a useful buy. (such as the synergy with the sorc or as a detector) most other races had to pay a premium for their detectors it is about time chaos had to as well.
User avatar
egewithin
Level 5
Posts: 1144
Joined: Mon 26 Jan, 2015 7:08 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby egewithin » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 6:31 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:hell chaos probably doesn’t deserve access to a jump unit considering all the other stuff that is going their way.


Not so true. I tried a match in vanillia retrubition vs eldar in a 1v1 with PC. Guess what? Shuted down by double shrunkens, bashed all power, wans't even able to get into T2 and conceded. Raptors are a MUST for Chaos.
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 3082
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 6:41 pm

@firatwithin
Put your PC in cover next time with healing tics in support and get nade launchers.
Should work just fine in retail. Then proceed to roflstomp with PM and BL spam. :)
User avatar
egewithin
Level 5
Posts: 1144
Joined: Mon 26 Jan, 2015 7:08 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby egewithin » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 7:16 pm

Dark Riku wrote:@firatwithin
Put your PC in cover next time with healing tics in support and get nade launchers.
Should work just fine in retail. Then proceed to roflstomp with PM and BL spam. :)


I did taht exept getting those T2 units. Since I wasn't able to get into T2. Also, Shrunkens were really good to stop my grenade tics. Even if I barraged them, the rest of Eldar stuff were unstoppable. I mean, in tecnic you are right but in practic it doesn't work out that way. Just like math.
User avatar
Ace of Swords
Level 5
Posts: 1493
Joined: Thu 14 Mar, 2013 7:49 am
Location: Terra

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 7:18 pm

firatwithin wrote:
saltychipmunk wrote:hell chaos probably doesn’t deserve access to a jump unit considering all the other stuff that is going their way.


Not so true. I tried a match in vanillia retrubition vs eldar in a 1v1 with PC. Guess what? Shuted down by double shrunkens, bashed all power, wans't even able to get into T2 and conceded. Raptors are a MUST for Chaos.


GL tics? For real, learn to attack ground, raptors are good vs 2x rangers, but they are terrible vs double shuries.
Image
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 3082
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 7:35 pm

firatwithin wrote:I did taht exept getting those T2 units. Since I wasn't able to get into T2. Also, Shrunkens were really good to stop my grenade tics. Even if I barraged them, the rest of Eldar stuff were unstoppable. I mean, in tecnic you are right but in practic it doesn't work out that way. Just like math.
You should be controlling his units with your instant suppressing havocs.
If that doesn't cut it for you I suggest you place his wide fire arc turret at your genfarm. That way you can tech up to the T2 spam. :)
Myrdal
Admin
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 1:47 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Myrdal » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 7:42 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:
Crewfinity wrote:
Aetherion wrote:
I'm curious about why you say the vindicare is obsolete? I find it to be a excellent vehicle assassin (as well as infantry it bleeds eldar so hard). In conjunction with the las rhino are probably all the AV you are going to need (until T3 and LRs and paladins come out)

Also, yes on Chaos T1 needing a bit of buff and T2 needing a bit of nerf (autocannons, PMs). Slaughter needing a buff....? I'm not too sure about that, suddenly you get a unit that does better than raptors in cc whilst they've been blasting at you with near warp spider level of dakka.



because for about the same cost you can get a speed 8 rhino with 500 vehicle armor that reinforces your army, does way more damage, bleeds eldar way harder than the vindicare and with purgation can shut down most vehicles you need to deal with. as far as an initial t2 purchase rhino is better in pretty much any way.


and i fucking called it. the vindi being a bad buy should have been extremely obvious the moment the 2.5 patch notes hit.


Tex: VA obsolete because purgation + las rhino
Crew: VA & Las rhino obsolete because purgation

Here's the obvious problem (if true)
purgation can shut down most vehicles you need to deal with


This probably needs addressing before any VA changes.
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Caeltos » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 8:18 pm

Updated OP with finalized notes
User avatar
Barrogh
Level 3
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon 30 Sep, 2013 11:04 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Barrogh » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 8:28 pm

Semi-offtopic: if we are to stay close to codexes, Kasrkins' new ability can be called "Advance on Target!" (Scions version of the "Move! Move! Move!", but IIRC that one is already used for General's ability, so...).
When in mortal danger, when beset by doubt
Run in little circles, wave your hands and shout
User avatar
Crewfinity
Level 4
Posts: 712
Joined: Tue 03 Dec, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 8:31 pm

Caeltos wrote:Updated OP with finalized notes



so that link is the actual 2.5.1 release?

thanks for taking all our feedback! as always your work as well as the mod team's is hugely appreciated :)
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 3082
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 8:42 pm

No INQ wargear cost increases.
No Banwulf changes.
No Vendread revert.
No purgations nerf? (new damage type?)
No rhino cost increase.
Purifiers cost decrease.
FeelsBadMan :(

Yeey for patch and all the rest being maps, bug fixes, new relic patch compatibility, etc ^^
Atlas

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Atlas » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 8:54 pm

Details on new purg damage type?
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Caeltos » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 9:09 pm

3 Purgation Flamers should now be equal to a Tactical Flamer in terms of damage against generators iirc.

Not sure on the details, but I believe some commit was that we adjusted some of the akwardness of the Purgation Damage.
Myrdal
Admin
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 1:47 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Myrdal » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 9:10 pm

Atlas wrote:Details on new purg damage type?


2.5 multiplier against buildings (from 5)
User avatar
Adeptus Noobus
Level 4
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 12:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 9:13 pm

It still says version 2.5.0 on the main screen.
User avatar
HARRYY
Level 2
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat 25 Jan, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby HARRYY » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 9:38 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:It still says version 2.5.0 on the main screen.

yep. got it as well.
Myrdal
Admin
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 1:47 pm

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Myrdal » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 9:55 pm

Working on a 2.5 -> 2.5.1 update installer with the logo and tooltips fixed
User avatar
Adeptus Noobus
Level 4
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 12:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 10:21 pm

Nice. I have played a few games now, and I don't know what you have done but the performance is much better. The in-game experience is way snappier, from menu to actual matches.
Pondera
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu 17 Mar, 2016 1:13 am

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Pondera » Thu 17 Mar, 2016 1:16 am

Does this patch also fix the AI's difficulties with activated power nodes or will I have to mod that myself? It hasn't been mentioned in this thread but there is a post about it in general discussion
Atlas

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Atlas » Thu 17 Mar, 2016 4:09 am

Pondera wrote:Does this patch also fix the AI's difficulties with activated power nodes or will I have to mod that myself? It hasn't been mentioned in this thread but there is a post about it in general discussion


That was a deliberate change. Disabling AI to attack nodes was done to prevent units from auto-targeting power nodes in human matches while on-the-move.
Pondera
Level 0
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu 17 Mar, 2016 1:13 am

Re: Patch 2.5.1

Postby Pondera » Thu 17 Mar, 2016 4:21 am

Atlas wrote:That was a deliberate change. Disabling AI to attack nodes was done to prevent units from auto-targeting power nodes in human matches while on-the-move.


You'll have to forgive me my insolence here. I'm not a good RTS player. At all. I'll only ever be able to do comp stomps by myself just to enjoy myself and have fun with the carnage. But the insolent part is that, if the AI is forever unable to destroy a player's listening post and recapture the node for themselves, what exactly is the point of tweaking the AI at all? No matter how well they would be performing otherwise, without power, they'll be mowed down by a tide of leman russ tanks, unable to counter with their own vehicles.

But I can understand the focus on pvp combat, since that's all anyone and their dog really does with these games. I am the outlier and I'll get started on modding my game accordingly.

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests