Patch 2.5.1

[CSM Emperor]

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

[Dark Riku]

then plague marines cost 400 req and no power as plasma devastrators.

This and many of your other posts make no fucking sense whatsoever.

[Caeltos]

yes and no and no

PM's are crazy tough, incredibly useful in all situations as they have good AI with their bolters, good AV with a snaring rocket, and good at tanking a lot of melee hits and slowing down enemy units, as well as synergizing really well with worship. they've needed a nerf for a while.

Autocannon havocs just shit all over everthing for way too little risk/cost. also have been overperforming for a while and are getting a well deserved nerf.

then plague marines cost 400 req and no power as plasma devastrators.

[Atlas]

then plague marines cost 400 req and no power as plasma devastrators.

This and many of your other posts make no fucking sense whatsoever.

It's not that they are nonsensical, but rather blatantly Chaos-biased. I'm finding this more tolerable than the other trouble posts lately. Still....

Remember, we will be watching.

[Nurland]

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

I do not understand what you are saying.

[The_Convertant]

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

I do not understand what you are saying.

He don't understand how cost affects performance.

[Caeltos]

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

I do not understand what you are saying.

He don't understand how cost affects performance.

Which is weird, since it's pretty basic. For an ex.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Sword in a game costs 600 gold, and gives you +10 damage.

Next patch -

Sword now costs 700 gold, but still gives only +10 damage.

Now, there's another weapon but it gives roughly the same stats, but it's unchanged.

Pickaxe that gives +8 damage and 2% crit chance for 650 gold

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The value of the sword goes down in terms of cost effiency , but the pickaxe remains the same cost effiency value. I mean, jesus - this type of application to balance is in almost every single RTS game, or ... heck, just about anything. The item itself may be fine - but the pricing of the item may be off for what it's giving.

[The_Convertant]

I do not understand what you are saying.

He don't understand how cost affects performance.

Which is weird, since it's pretty basic. For an ex.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Sword in a game costs 600 gold, and gives you +10 damage.

Next patch -

Sword now costs 700 gold, but still gives only +10 damage.

Now, there's another weapon but it gives roughly the same stats, but it's unchanged.

Pickaxe that gives +8 damage and 2% crit chance for 650 gold

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The value of the sword goes down in terms of cost effiency , but the pickaxe remains the same cost effiency value. I mean, jesus - this type of application to balance is in almost every single RTS game, or ... heck, just about anything. The item itself may be fine - but the pricing of the item may be off for what it's giving.

Not to forget the cost increase also delay the timing of wargear purchase.
BTW are you necron? Why don't you need sleep?

[HARRYY]

LC and LG need some slight buffs tho. very sensitive ones.

No, the INQ needs to be toned down The others don't need to be buffed to her degree...

yeah, agree. DIdnt say that

[DandyFrontline]

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

DoW1 UA and FoK mods have nothing to do with balance. It's just for fun mods with as much models implanted as possible. And as almost all players playing those mods vs CPU they dont really give a shit about balance. Ah, what im saying - even in PvP its 2 hrs long boring meat grinder on the map with 1 tunnel where some player start to losing because he simply bored with this bs.

Yea, small changes are the way to balance. Ofc Cael can overnerf some units and overbuff the others and we just simply will return to vanilla state of the game where every faction got some underpowered stuff and some overpowered and the faster you discover this OP bs the better you are.

[HARRYY]

was there a word when 2.5.1 is going to be live ?

[CSM Emperor]

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

I do not understand what you are saying.

He don't understand how cost affects performance.

i understand how cost affects balance but its NOT JUST COST in a good rts, cost is just one parameter.

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

DoW1 UA and FoK mods have nothing to do with balance. It's just for fun mods with as much models implanted as possible. And as almost all players playing those mods vs CPU they dont really give a shit about balance. Ah, what im saying - even in PvP its 2 hrs long boring meat grinder on the map with 1 tunnel where some player start to losing because he simply bored with this bs.

Yea, small changes are the way to balance. Ofc Cael can overnerf some units and overbuff the others and we just simply will return to vanilla state of the game where every faction got some underpowered stuff and some overpowered and the faster you discover this OP bs the better you are.

FoK and UA have balance since their latest version, FoK always had, UA just have some late tier imba units but in a competitive game there is no way you can make them.

[Crewfinity]

On another note I would like to reiterate my belief that the OM Rhino needs a nerf. it can come out as a vehicle rush and transport purgs straight to the enemy farm and bash in seconds, an even more punishing fast tech than a deff dread. Its way cheaper than the Space Marine Razorback, does way more damage, and has the potential for AV. With all this in mind there's absolutely no reason not to get it as your first T2 purchase. it supports your army, gives you mobility, and has the potential for huge anti infantry or good AV damage.

It's a really really good unit right now and its just too cheap for what it does. I would suggest a power increase of 5-10 so that its 250/50 or 250/55. I would also suggest a build time increase of 8 seconds so that its the same as the razorback (40 instead of 32)



data for comparison (full t2 upgrades):

Wartrukk:
costs 300/60, speed 9, 550 health, 27 piercing dps, 40 seconds to build

Razorback:
costs 380/90, speed 8, 600 health, 55 piercing dps, smoke grenade, 40 seconds to build

Bolter Rhino:
costs 350/45, speed 8, 500 health, 80 piercing dps, smoke grenade, 32 seconds to build

Las Rhino:
costs 350/60, speed 8, 500 health, 25 piercing dps and 23.57 anti vehicle dps, smoke grenade, 32 seconds to build

Falcon:
costs 360/90, speed 8, 500 health, 41.6 piercing dps and 28 venom cannon dps, 40 seconds to build

[Forestradio]

was there a word when 2.5.1 is going to be live ?

[Wise Windu]

^

[MaxPower]

Razorback:
costs 380/90, speed 8, 600 health, 55 piercing dps, smoke grenade, 40 seconds to build

It only costs 60 power not 90...just saying.

[Aetherion]

Razorback:
costs 380/90, speed 8, 600 health, 55 piercing dps, smoke grenade, 40 seconds to build

It only costs 60 power not 90...just saying.

He included the extra armour upgrade.

[Dark Riku]

Super Saiyan razorback. I mean rhino...

[Gorbles]

the thing is DoW 2 is laughable, you change a cost to 5 power and 20 requisition and you call that balance ??? Thats LOOOOOOL. DoW 1 mods UA and FoK are STRATEGY and no stock market.

DoW1 UA and FoK mods have nothing to do with balance. It's just for fun mods with as much models implanted as possible. And as almost all players playing those mods vs CPU they dont really give a shit about balance. Ah, what im saying - even in PvP its 2 hrs long boring meat grinder on the map with 1 tunnel where some player start to losing because he simply bored with this bs.

While I agree that the changes present in ELITE are far more impactful than they appear (it's mainly due to costs in general being lower across the board compared to DoW 1, as the resource flow in general is also lesser), you don't need to trash on other mods just to look superior.

I don't like UA personally, for various reasons, but they have been putting in balance efforts that is up to their team to prioritise and decide on. FoK is an entirely different matter, as as I'm one of the longtime designers and coders on that project. Not only are you laughably wrong, if someone made that kind of a comment about ELITE you'd all jump on them to tear them apart.

Y'know, like what's already happening.

[saltychipmunk]

dont include the upgrade on the razor back pls that’s an unnecessary price bloat and clearly is not needed when you look at the other transports only having 500 hp anyway.


one thing to consider is that while the gk rhino has the most potential dps it is largely dependent on it facing forward. kitting and mobile rhinos with the bolter upgrade have damage values which are much closer to the other transports since the little bolter dude doesn’t like to fire at things not directly in-front of him.

a price rake is probably in order and i think the value put forward is reasonable

[Guilliman]

Patch 2.5.1

PUT ANSWERS IN CAPS. MORE FOR JUST SM AND OM SINCE I ONLY PLAY THEM.

Trying a new format. If you prefer this one or the older ones, let me now - I pitched in some explanation/reasoning behind some changes. Of course, I could be more elaborate, but it's about keeping it to the basics and not about making an essay on this.

I THINK THIS IS A GREAT FORMAT, IT REALLY GIVES US THE REASON FOR THE CHANGES LIKE X UNIT WOULD BE USED MORE OR SOMETHING WHICH IS GREAT

SOMETHING QUITE BIG BUT I DUNNO IF I WANT TO SHARE. MAYBE ILL POSTPONE FOR ANOTHER TIME. I NEED TO ASSEMBLE THE INNER CIRCLE FOR FEEDBACK

A NEW COMMANDER FOR OM!?!

Space Marines

The goal is to promote more Librarian play and be rewarded for it, shifting away the dependency on lighter vehicles or walker play-styles in various game modes.

• Librarian bolt pistol damage increased from 14 to 30.8
• Librarian Gate of Infinity cooldown decreased from 40 to 30
• Librarian staff ranged damage increased from 40 to 50

I THINK THIS IS A AWESOME IDEA. THE LIBBY DEFINITELY COULD SEE MORE USE. THE FEW TIMES I SEE HIM USED BY OTHERS HE DOES SEEM TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THIS WOULD HOPEFULLY ALLOW MORE USE. I PERSONALLY DON'T USE HIM ALTHOUGH I SHOULD.

Ordo Malleus

The Psilencer is designed to be an effective anti-infantry/heavy infantry weaponry; however, it may have slight overeffiency for its cost versus other Ordo Malleus arsenal for dealing with larger blobs of infantry. Psycannon removed from the Grey Knight Terminators to solidify the intended role for Grey Knight Terminators to be a strict anti-infantry based specialized variant, whereas Paladins/Interceptors are ideal for countering vehicles.

IF I AM READING THIS THIS CHANGE WILL MAKE THE "REGULAR" GK TERMIS ANTI INFANTRY IN BOTH MELEE WITH THEIR HALBERDS AND PSILENCER WHEREAS THE PALADINS WILL STILL HAVE THEIR HAMMERS AND PSYCANNONS FOR ANTI-TANK? IF SO I THINK THIS MAKES SENSE, ALSO ENCOURAGES SYNERGY

• Purged by Fire is no longer a channeled ability, and now instead leaves a "charred" area where enemies take 3 flame DPS and are slowed for 50% in the area. Area radius decreased from 15 to 12. Lasts for 5 seconds.
• Psilencer splash radius decreased from 3 to 1
• Grey Knight Terminator Psycannon replaced with Psilencer (similiar weapon statistics to that of the Strike Squad Psilencer, but 25 damage instead of 23)
• Purifiers cost decreased from 450/75 to 450/65

YEAH I DON'T THINK I HAVE REALLY USED THESE GUYS, NOT SURE IF COST WAS THE REAL ISSUE, THERE SEEMS TO BE BETTER UNITS TO GET LIKE RHINO AND VA AND BY THAT TIME I AM TRYING TO TECH TO TIER 3. BUT MAY WITH THE SLIGHT POWER DECREASE MAY BE WORTH TRYING TO GET

DREAD: NOT SURE WHAT OTHERS THINK OF THE OM DREAD, THE FEW TIMES I GET IT IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A POINT SINK. THE FLAMER IS UNDERWHELMING. I HAVEN'T DIRECTLY COMPARED HIM TO THE SM DREAD BUT JUST SEEMS WAY TOO EXPENSIVE TO GET. THOUGHTS?

[Lulgrim]

Please use the quote function and normal sentence case. I fixed your post so it's more readable.

[Crewfinity]

Feedback for Purgation Squad

now that this unit is in T1 again, the OM compositions have drastically changed. they now have anti melee which transitions well into AV, which was exactly what they needed. However, I think they could use some tweaks. Currently they are overperforming against gens, while their rotation speed is really hindering their contributions to larger fights.

Currently, the incinerators deal 6.75 flame dps, which seems reasonable. however, when they have a full squad that's 20.25 flame dps, quite a hefty number. Since they have ranged modifiers, this means they'll be dealing 16.2 flame dps at max range and 25.31 flame dps at short range. This leads to craaaazy fast gen bashing speed, to the point where its borderline OP.

25.31 flame dps translates to 126.55 real dps to generators, which means that they can burn a full farm in about 15 seconds. that's just a little too punishing and leaves not enough room for counterplay, unless you have a setup team guarding your gens in anticipation of a purgation squad they can get a full bash pretty easily, and they're able to be fielded fairly quickly in the game.

for comparison, bile spewer does 12.65 flame dps, noise marines deal 12.69 flame dps, and strike squad incinerator deals 9.46 flame dps. so a full squad of purgation can deal more than twice the damage of any other flamer in t1.

Suggested changes

Give them a unique damage type that is the same against everything except gens. against gens it should deal maybe half the damage. this would allow for a larger window to repel them from a gen bash and easier to punish. I would also combine this with a rotation speed increase of 200, so that it goes from 300 to 500 (SS is 1000 for reference). This would allow for more opportunities to use them in larger fights, as even with the WaTH speed buff they take so long to turn that they can't reposition effectively at all.

The second combination of changes I would suggest is a power increase of 5, coupled with an upkeep decrease down to 10.2, to bring them in line with other t1.5 units. currently they can hit the field really fast and i think they're high enough impact that they could easily be 5 more more expensive.

[Atlas]

What Crew said, 100%. Great ideas. Purgs are super good right now.

[Forestradio]

if someone made that kind of a comment about ELITE you'd all jump on them to tear them apart.
Y'know, like what's already happening.

The first problem with those comments is that they are based on incorrect assumptions. Choko has made suggestions like decreasing purgation squad health down to 300 (it is already 300...) or giving the kommando squad callin a power cost because it's t2 (when it's been t3 for ages and ages and everyone who has played k-nob to some degree should know this). It's rather difficult to take suggestions seriously when they're based off of such blatantly wrong information.

I suggest that he check the Codex for the correct values.

The second problem... well perhaps it isn't my place to say this (moderators feel free to remove this part of my post if it seems out of line) but Choko's attitude ingame has not exactly been constructive. Rage is perfectly acceptable in dow2 imo (so long as it's directed at yourself/balance/"features") but afterwards you say "gg" and shake it off, etc etc. I don't know if you've played with Choko but the consistent criticism of elite and his attitude are pretty tiresome to deal with.

What Crew said, 100%. Great ideas. Purgs are super good right now.

Indeed, I'll also add that purgation flamers got MASSIVE buffs when they were moved into t2, but those buffs never got removed when they got moved back into t1, seems odd since their 2.3 t1 state was pretty much fine aside from the stupidly low turn rate (which is fine on the psycannons imo but just stupid on the flamers) and their above-average upkeep.

Generally speaking i think that purgation should be more consistent to use correctly but less stupidly effective when used correctly.

[Gorbles]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I wasn't addressing anything around Choko anymore. It was mainly speaking up in defense of other mods (one of which I've worked on) - you don't need to act like that to prove your point, in my opinion (to that other poster).

It was just a bit of an aside given the talk about DoW 1 mods, really. If you were ever interested in actually talking about their design and balance you're welcome to PM me (understand if your energies are just more focused on ELITE).

[Cyris]

@Purgs: I don't agree about the rotation buff, I think it's a fine weakness of the unit. The rest, ESPECIALLY reducing upkeep, seems very reasonable. I'm a bit torn on a price increase in the context of changes to the damage type + changes to the slow + if anything else were to be changed. The damage boost they got when moved to T2 could also prolly go away.

@Rhino: Rhino is indeed undercosted on paper (including the now unnecessarily low upkeep) though reinforcement doesn't synergize with OM especially well, which keeps it from being as OP as it looks in practice. IE: If this unit was magically moved to IG, it would be OP, but on OM it's "only" strong. I for one would love to see the renforcement go away, reduce the movespeed (like to 6.5 even), and keep the Rhino as a zone-controling weapons platform more then a transport - almost like a T2 sentinel. Reduce the las-cannons spike damage in favor of damage over time as well (to further reduce it's ability to chase while maintaining it's potency against deep diving vehicles). I think this would help keep it unique from analogues on other races, and in keeping with OM's theme of unique takes on things like setup teams.

Also, maybe switch it's name with the Razorback? Rhino in lore is a transport, but the Razor is more of a transport with it's extra seating and armor. In lore, Razor is a Rhino that loses seating to have more weaponry, while in game the Rhino is the transport with less seating and more weapons

[egewithin]

Just asking, why OM Rhino only loads for 2 squads insrted of general 3 ?

[Cyris]

Just asking, why OM Rhino only loads for 2 squads insrted of general 3 ?

It was one of the many balancing tweaks done while it was in T1. It kindda fits theamaticly too, since the Rhino is a transport with more weapons at the cost of less seats.

[Dark Riku]

This is all very confusing since ingame and lore names are not adding up and are screwing with my mind.

Lore
A Rhino can hold 10 marines and has a pintle mounted storm bolter, paired with an optional hunter killer missile or extra storm bolter.
It has a hatch up top which allows 2 marines to fire out from.

A razorback can hold 6 marines. Comes with 2 optional slots for storm bolters or hunter killer missiles. The hatch is replaced with a weapon system (twin-linked heavy bolter, twin-linked lascannon, twin-linked heavy flamer, twin-linked assault cannon or lascannon with a twin linked plasma gun) and is the reason less marines can fit inside.

Ingame
SM razorback is a lore stock razorback.

OM rhino is a lore stock rhino (that somehow fits less squads inside than a razorback) that upgrades to a lore upgraded razorback.

.... Just wanted to share. Doesn't actually help balance