2.5.X Balance

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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MaxPower
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby MaxPower » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 11:22 am

ChokoBambus wrote:- Terminators of all varieties need to be on a half cool down when teched to tier 3. Most of the time their counters have comparable costs but significant build times and/or spawn at the base

Eldar: lack of reliable late game detection that is not tied to dead weight squads. Perhaps seers could be made into detectors?

- banshees not scaling into the late game as comparable squads, but having comparable cost and upkeep. And I know people will call me crazy but see how useful banshees are when critical mass is reached or some of the higher tier squads hit the field. With levels, even the squads they supposedly counter furk them up. They need a late game premium upgrade to scale them. Every core squad gets one.

SM:
- FC thunder hammer damage/special damage decreased
- TM bionics damage decreased


More Eldar detection...just no.
Banshee upgrade...again, no and no, I dont call you crazy I call you biased.

You said that every core squad gets a "late game premium upgrade to scale them" would you be so kind and name these squads and upgrades?
Because the only T3 upgrade I can think of right now is the Vanguard upgrade for ASMs.

Choko, we all know that you are biased as fuck towards eldar and we all know that I'm a freaking space marine fanboy. Now let me tell you that Terminators (the call in variants) have a 7 min cooldown, half of that would be 3 min and 30 second, which units takes that long to build?
And remember that you pay 350 red to get them on the field without any delay.

Reducing the damage of the thunder hammer, i.e. turning it into a useless piece of junk so you can win with your banshees. The Thunder Hammers only purpose is to "dominate in melee", it is most of the time the go to weapon for a FC player, because a. power fist aint that great against mass melee or squishy races, b. power fist is way more expensive, c. the disruption provided by the TH is great against swarmy, melee races.

Reducing TM bionics damage...hahaha...has anyone used the bionics again after the nerf? I don't think so because it is kind of useless now and you want to nerf it even more?


Seriously Choco, stop posting so much Eldar bias...it is getting pretty annoying. There is a reason y I dont post anything regarding balance, because I know I'm biased towards SM and I know that whatever I propose about SM balance will always end in SM being op as fuck and yes whenever you say something about Eldar it sounds just like you want to turn them into an op power house.
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Asmon
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Asmon » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 1:04 pm

Bionics is in a good spot atm, and I'll keep using it most of the time.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 2:35 pm

ChokoBambus wrote:...
Squad leaders
All squad leader being die last is a very silly thing to do. Will make a huge mess out of things with the sharing damage ability that it brings.
Straight up buff to any healing capabilities. Deathtraps all around for any hooks. ...

Setupteams
Do some research first. They all have different traits and HP pools already. I went over this in a very big post in the past that you can find on the forum.

Eldar
DA are dead weight? Rangers with all their support are dead weight? °_O
Banshees scale just fine as already discussed in different threads. Not going to repeat it. Saying it many times does not make it true.
What core squad T3 upgrades are you talking about? Because I don't know any.

Orks
Orks are a high pressure race. It's part of their design, like Tyranids but in a different way.
Burna cost is fine, if anything needs a look at it's the slugga nob.
Trukk might do with a cost increase.
Knob's damage does indeed seem high. But looks rather fine to me.

Space Marines & terminators
LOL. Covered by Max :)

Tyranids
The Carnifex already cost a ton in power and you want the upgrade to cost even more?
Rippers should die over time? XD You already let them die anyway as you don't want to reinforce them. Do you know how much they cost to reinforce?

Chaos
Plague cloud already has a marker. If you are playing against a PC, pay attention.

Ordo Malleus
Purgations need a big rework if you ask me.

Imperial Guard
The priority lies with the INQ wargear and the bane wolf drop if it were up to me.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby ChokoBambus » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 4:29 pm

I know exacticly how much HP each and every setup team has. And I also know that later on in the game AV setup teams can get gibbed by pretty much anything.

Core squads are the two req only squads a race can purchase in the game at the beginning. And in many races one of the two is combat oriented and scales as such while the other scales through utility.

Banshees are tactical/CSM equivalents in both cost and upkeep. They are clearly not sluggas as far as cost goes, yet even there they fall off combat performance wise. But sure, why not...
The issue at hand is that they are, in fact, dead weight in the late game. here is a list of core squads that gain extra upgrades to make them relevant into the late game:

CSM
- eternal war
- champ
- inferno or axe

Scouts
- infiltration + sustain
- sarge detection + grenade
- shottie or sniper

GM
- sarge
- commie
- flamer or plazma

Nids
- adrenal and sacs
- 2 for 1 + squad size upgrade

etc etc

Now, in vanilla there was a reason while the banshees dropped off in the later part of the game. It was their explosive presence of squad wipes on retreat and the fact that they had the only cheap and AV leader in the game. This is no longer the case, any of it. Guardians, ahem, DA can pass off as useful as their combat performance no longer becomes a primary concern, but banshees. They are... U S E L E S S in late tier 2 and 3. An enormous, cost ineffective drain with minimal impact in the game.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 5:55 pm

ChokoBambus wrote:I know exacticly how much HP each and every setup team has. And I also know that later on in the game AV setup teams can get gibbed by pretty much anything.
Then you should already know that some already have 750HP or get there by levelling...
AV setup teams also have pretty long range.

Non of the examples you give are premium late game upgrades either.
Shees fall in the same category with their T1 an T2 upgrades like the ones you mentioned.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 15 Mar, 2016 7:05 pm

the only thing about setups i can comment on is the new ig heavy weapons team. good lord they are so easy to kill off with aoe damage now.


immolate is a hard counter to them now rather than the soft counter it is to most other setups. if they dont move , it will pretty much almost off them by itself and if the lock gets a destructor in its basically 240 req 30 power down the drain in under 5 seconds.

other than that you cant really expect set up teams to survive drect hits from high teir stuff. just like i don’t really get that mad when terminators with claws can literally instantly kill off pretty much all forms of non nob/terminator infantry ... it is simply what they do.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Tex » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 4:26 am

The only squads I can think of that get "premium" upgrades to carry them into T3 are sluggas/stormboyz via the painboy (which ends up being one ultra fucking expensive upgrade) and ASM --> vanguard, and that's also assuming that you haven't already leveled your ASM.

Honestly, I love you like a bro choko, but you gotta back off on the banshee non-sense. I was pretty upset with banshees for a while as well, but then I got back to my eldar foundations and now they work just fine. They still do their job quite admirably. If you go back to eldar basics in terms of eldar large engagments, (IE, use shurikans and rangers and DA shields to force your opponent to engage, hold banshees in reserve, counter the assault with a nasty charge) you will see that they still rip shit in melee.

Also, you can't tell me that banshees aren't useful in the late game. I think what you need to do is adopt a paradigm shift as soon as you hit the T3 button. Banshees are probably one of the best side capper units in the game if you think about it. Use them to control a full 1/3 of the map easily! Adapt your main fighting force to be able to function without them at that point. For example, use entangle to control melee instead of relying on banshees.

Another thing, I really don't like what die last leaders have done to some matchups, but I also understand that it was done out of necessity for certain detectors to deal with LA problems (lets fix flesh hook instead though I guess.... haha). Just look at what IG vs Orks has turned into man! Shoota nobs becoming die last has absolutely turned that matchup on its fucking head!

Finally, speaking of "weak detection", I want to address the fact that chaos has weak detection, and now it has been made inherently worse by the fact that AC melee tics are not good. I think this was an unseen nerf to chaos detection and now its a pretty dicey investment.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Atlas » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 5:38 am

What is the soft detection in Chaos again?
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby The_Convertant » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 5:42 am

Atlas wrote:What is the soft detection in Chaos again?

Tics are quite soft IMO lol
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Atlas » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 5:54 am

I'm pretty sure soft detection referred to range 15 detectors, like the Sentinel and DA Exarchs.

EDIT: Nvm, I think Tex is just referring to tics being a weak squad now.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby PhatE » Wed 16 Mar, 2016 7:01 am

ChokoBambus wrote:
- burna cost increased by 5 power


This would revert it to vanilla making sluggaz really redundant in T1. The req change that was made has been more than ample in preventing dual slugga builds being able to smash a power farm before you can get a shuriken out.

Before you had returned it was beyond nightmarish as Eldar to fight against it. Give this one a bit more time
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby CSM Emperor » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 3:07 am

Dark Riku wrote:
ChokoBambus wrote:...
Squad leaders
All squad leader being die last is a very silly thing to do. Will make a huge mess out of things with the sharing damage ability that it brings.
Straight up buff to any healing capabilities. Deathtraps all around for any hooks. ...

Setupteams
Do some research first. They all have different traits and HP pools already. I went over this in a very big post in the past that you can find on the forum.

Eldar
DA are dead weight? Rangers with all their support are dead weight? °_O
Banshees scale just fine as already discussed in different threads. Not going to repeat it. Saying it many times does not make it true.
What core squad T3 upgrades are you talking about? Because I don't know any.

Orks
Orks are a high pressure race. It's part of their design, like Tyranids but in a different way.
Burna cost is fine, if anything needs a look at it's the slugga nob.
Trukk might do with a cost increase.
Knob's damage does indeed seem high. But looks rather fine to me.

Space Marines & terminators
LOL. Covered by Max :)

Tyranids
The Carnifex already cost a ton in power and you want the upgrade to cost even more?
Rippers should die over time? XD You already let them die anyway as you don't want to reinforce them. Do you know how much they cost to reinforce?

Chaos
Plague cloud already has a marker. If you are playing against a PC, pay attention.

Ordo Malleus
Purgations need a big rework if you ask me.

Imperial Guard
The priority lies with the INQ wargear and the bane wolf drop if it were up to me.

these are some correct comments for dow 2 BUT NOT warhammer 40k. Firestorm over Kaurava mod for soulstorm is the real wh40k game.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Lag » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 11:34 am

Aight, I've spent quite a lot of time playing since the patch came out and am about to take a break from doing so but before I did that I thought I'd share some observations and opinions. I'm mostly confident in my Ork and IG observations as I've played them the most but will mention a few others as well.

IG
Suppression - I mostly think IG are in a really good place right now. The only thing I think they still struggle with is suppression. I've read some arguments here or on the other topic which mostly comes down to giving theorycraft advice like "move Catas in" (they DO bleed when focused, you know?), or "just make spotters". Spotters are good but the thing is - IG don't really have too viable of an option to tie setup teams up. Other factions have units like Raptors and ASM, or have quick melee squads with models very spread out and fast heroes so they can tie up the setup team quickly. IG heroes are softer or slower, and even when you do use them it's at a great risk compared to when you do it with Eldar or Tyranids (IG is a ranged army, so you can't really tie up squads to reduce focused fire onto heroes). The thing with spotters is - they are a specialist unit. Other units that act as setup-team counters 1. can do other things as well 2. actually tie up or damage the setup team providing a relatively permanent solution to suppression in a fight. The spotters are a temporary solution to a setup team (unless you get a really good knockback ie. the unit is not in cover to hold it in place). That said if you fuck up with it and leave even a small window for it to suppress your stuff - you often end up retreating your entire army because a suppressed IG army is good for shit. It bleeds quickly, and, even though there are a lot of models to bleed, the firepower drastically dwindles with the model count.
Anyway, what I'm suggesting is nothing radical. Reduce the power and req cost of spotters and raise their reinforcement cost even more. That way IG players need to be careful with them, but also can get them easier and the price reflects their effective usefulness.

ORKS
Shootas - I think shootas are a part of why Orks can transition into T3 so quickly. Their damage output is already great and they have the "get the fuck outta here" one-click-suppression which makes them very versatile enabling the standard pair of them to easily deal with heroes and melee squads (the usual counter to ranged stuff). The Nob leader already gives them a higher model count (and thus a higher damage output) and increased durability. I just don't think they should get the free damage boost they get with reaching T2.

Hide Da Boyz - I think this needs a red cost increase, at least to 100, if not to 125. IMHO Sluggaz are very strong even early on in the game and their chase potential is high, not to mention when you get the Nob and the ability which gives the speed boost thingie. The tradeoff should be that you should be able to see them and potentially bleed them some before they reach the targeted squad, or at least start kiting early on to reduce bleed. Also, Hide Da Boyz gets the Tankbustas so much potential for sneak attacks and stuff. Sure, Storms are also an infiltration squad, but their range is short and that's a tradeoff. With Orks getting red very easily - Hide Da Boyz at it's current cost can make getting wipes way too easy and at no real cost or risk.

Truck - Needs a power increase. Orks get too much great stuff which costs just a bit of power as soon as they hit t2. Shootas get their up for free, Slugga Nob is insanely cost effective for what you get and all the heroes get really good wargear for next to nothing.

Kommando Nob - I think shotgun blast damage should be reduced. It more often than not wipes squads or at least kills 80-90% of the models. It already does a hard knockback, and the shotgun itself has good damage, fires on the move and passively knocks back models. With the high damage output of the SGB and the SGB-stun bomb combo (accompanied by insane damage of Sluggas and Shootas) the SB is way too good for the price.
Also, the hook... The idea behind that hero is to get around being sneaky - not by being a teleport unit. It is very fun using it though so I wouldn't mind if it stayed just for that. :D

Eldar

Banshees - I still don't get why they get the damage reduction when they scream. They are supposed to be glass cannons, not t1 tanks. They should lose a model or two before reaching combat, but when they do - they have the damage and the chase potential. You have two heroes who can easily support them with DI/DR and heal, and you have the third hero which can easily tie up ranged teams. Banshees are already good in their "think twice before trying to engage my squishy DA and Shuri squads", they are good at chasing, they have insane melee skill... I just don't get why they needed that DR. What's their weakness?

WSE - For a Hero which has teleport in combination with so many great utility items (which seem more OP than most utility-hero abilities) I think he has too high of a damage output. Mekboy has less damage than this guy and (I think) less of a range (not to mention melee skill and the lack of special attack), Tech Marine can't teleport, Sorc needs to buy TP etc... I don't see a tradeoff for the WSE great abilities and having a natural TP.

Warlock - I understand giving him the knockback along with one of his weapons but giving it to him for "free".. I don't get it. Why? He's already fast, he has very powerful gear in every tier, high melee skill with a good special and has the "fuck those high model count squishy squads" ability for free...

DA shields - A good part of Eldar gameplay, just like with the IG, revolves around positioning. This is why their ability to create shields is really useful. I just don't get how it makes sense for it to give them ranged damage invincibility (not to mention how frustrating it is to use a nade or Manti strike on a squad behind shield only to see it do 0 damage - as it shouldn't). Why not just green cover DR? You already have something that helps you bleed less, thus helping hold the position and, while it costs mana, it's instantaneously set up (unlike the IG thing that needs time to be built) so you can lock down an area quickly and start dealing damage. I really think it would be fine with just the green cover DR.

Tyranids

Hormagaunts - they are already really fast, their models are spread out (which means shotgun blasts usually don't cover the entire squad, suppression doesn't do much damage to it while they slowly approach plus fire weapons don't rape them as hard as they do Tics for example), and when they charge - they get almost as scary as Shees. The jump not only gives them even more mobility and ability to ignore terrain from early on (a thing that greatly affects how useful melee squads are in the first 10 or so minutes of the game) but it's a jump-hit which makes their chase potential equal to Banshees, if not greater (with the higher model count), more often than not gives them knockback immunity (Shee and Horma models just ignore shotgun blasts and shit like that while in mid-leap), not to mention that it enables them to easily tie up setup teams from close distance - which is usually the biggest gamble for melee squads becauses when they are close they take the most damage. My thoughts are - either reduce the model count of the squad or reduce their damage or just take out the leap altogether (which would be the best I think).
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Kvn » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 2:00 pm

Lag wrote:
Banshees - I still don't get why they get the damage reduction when they scream. They are supposed to be glass cannons, not t1 tanks. They should lose a model or two before reaching combat, but when they do - they have the damage and the chase potential. You have two heroes who can easily support them with DI/DR and heal, and you have the third hero which can easily tie up ranged teams. Banshees are already good in their "think twice before trying to engage my squishy DA and Shuri squads", they are good at chasing, they have insane melee skill... I just don't get why they needed that DR. What's their weakness?


They don't have a damage reduction while using Warshout. They have one while using FoF while their Exarch is alive. The tradeoff for that being that their damage output is reduced for the duration. All the shout does is suppress nearby squads. Banshee damage output is high, but their chase potential has been drastically reduced with the recent change to a leap instead of a melee charge. Their weakness is that they cost a lot and bleed you quite heavily since they have low hp totals and light infantry armor. I don't know where you're getting 't1 tanks' from. Their melee skill is part of what makes them useful to begin with as, without specials, they do very poorly against most other melee squads.

Lag wrote:WSE - For a Hero which has teleport in combination with so many great utility items (which seem more OP than most utility-hero abilities) I think he has too high of a damage output. Mekboy has less damage than this guy and (I think) less of a range (not to mention melee skill and the lack of special attack), Tech Marine can't teleport, Sorc needs to buy TP etc... I don't see a tradeoff for the WSE great abilities and having a natural TP.


The Warp Spider is meant to be annoying. It's his thing. He has a lot less outright killing power than the Techmarine and Sorc, and not nearly as much support capabilities as the Mekboy. The Warp Spider is designed to generally be a pain through his bleed potential and control abilities as, without that, he doesn't have much going for him.

Lag wrote:Warlock - I understand giving him the knockback along with one of his weapons but giving it to him for "free".. I don't get it. Why? He's already fast, he has very powerful gear in every tier, high melee skill with a good special and has the "fuck those high model count squishy squads" ability for free...


Because he has no melee charge. The leap was added in as a buff to his brawling capabilities, while being a nerf to his retreat killing potential. What's more, his 'powerful gear in every tier' has been made less powerful with the change to Heart of Darkness removing the synergistic benefits of the Warlock's Jedi build. Destructor has also been nerfed since the bolts (now two instead of one, each doing half damage) don't hit in the same spot, making it much more difficult to land that perfect strike.

Lag wrote:DA shields - A good part of Eldar gameplay, just like with the IG, revolves around positioning. This is why their ability to create shields is really useful. I just don't get how it makes sense for it to give them ranged damage invincibility (not to mention how frustrating it is to use a nade or Manti strike on a squad behind shield only to see it do 0 damage - as it shouldn't). Why not just green cover DR? You already have something that helps you bleed less, thus helping hold the position and, while it costs mana, it's instantaneously set up (unlike the IG thing that needs time to be built) so you can lock down an area quickly and start dealing damage. I really think it would be fine with just the green cover DR.


Those shields are only 500 hp (less really given that they turn off while low to recharge) and play counter to Eldar strengths. They are only good while sitting static, meaning that the Eldar player isn't out capping the map, flanking, or generally getting strong positioning over their opponents. In a straight up firefight, Eldar units with the exception of the Wraithguard tend to fall apart quite badly. The shields are meant as a way to help mitigate their lack of head-to-head capabilities at the cost of speed and maneuverability.

Lag wrote:Tyranids

Hormagaunts - they are already really fast, their models are spread out (which means shotgun blasts usually don't cover the entire squad, suppression doesn't do much damage to it while they slowly approach plus fire weapons don't rape them as hard as they do Tics for example), and when they charge - they get almost as scary as Shees. The jump not only gives them even more mobility and ability to ignore terrain from early on (a thing that greatly affects how useful melee squads are in the first 10 or so minutes of the game) but it's a jump-hit which makes their chase potential equal to Banshees, if not greater (with the higher model count), more often than not gives them knockback immunity (Shee and Horma models just ignore shotgun blasts and shit like that while in mid-leap), not to mention that it enables them to easily tie up setup teams from close distance - which is usually the biggest gamble for melee squads becauses when they are close they take the most damage. My thoughts are - either reduce the model count of the squad or reduce their damage or just take out the leap altogether (which would be the best I think).


I'm not a Nid player by any means, so I don't know their ins and outs, but Hormagaunts are also extremely frail and vulnerable to synapse bombs. In addition, they only get their leaps after buying adrenal glands. Reducing the model count of the squad would actually be a buff assuming the stats remained the same (less bleed, less vulnerability to aoe, etc.), and removing their leap would be a pretty drastic nerf to their effectiveness.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Metal C0Mmander » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 2:27 pm

Kvn wrote:
Lag wrote:Tyranids

Hormagaunts - they are already really fast, their models are spread out (which means shotgun blasts usually don't cover the entire squad, suppression doesn't do much damage to it while they slowly approach plus fire weapons don't rape them as hard as they do Tics for example), and when they charge - they get almost as scary as Shees. The jump not only gives them even more mobility and ability to ignore terrain from early on (a thing that greatly affects how useful melee squads are in the first 10 or so minutes of the game) but it's a jump-hit which makes their chase potential equal to Banshees, if not greater (with the higher model count), more often than not gives them knockback immunity (Shee and Horma models just ignore shotgun blasts and shit like that while in mid-leap), not to mention that it enables them to easily tie up setup teams from close distance - which is usually the biggest gamble for melee squads becauses when they are close they take the most damage. My thoughts are - either reduce the model count of the squad or reduce their damage or just take out the leap altogether (which would be the best I think).


I'm not a Nid player by any means, so I don't know their ins and outs, but Hormagaunts are also extremely frail and vulnerable to synapse bombs. In addition, they only get their leaps after buying adrenal glands. Reducing the model count of the squad would actually be a buff assuming the stats remained the same (less bleed, less vulnerability to aoe, etc.), and removing their leap would be a pretty drastic nerf to their effectiveness.
Yeah pretty much what he said except for the reduced model count (unless I misunderstood him). If the models not the squad kept the same stats then yes it would mean they would bleed less but it would also make them a lot less easier to wipe, each model would still take as much damage from AOE and they'll do less damage a bit (that part thought should be buffed to make sure the nerf is not too drastic). An other bit Kvn didn't talk about but is pretty funny is the abillity for hormagaunts to leap over obstacles including low walls which leads to many a player being totally suprised. I actually would rather people started to learn to deal with it instead of getting rid of it since it not only is it a nice "They're comming from the walls!" situation it also alllow tyranid melee forces to deal with the chokepoint tactics so many players also love to use. Also finally while it's true that shotgun blast might not knockback every hormagaunts in their track if not executed well it will still greatly reduce the squad effectiveness by first stopping a lot the damge the models that did get knockbacked and by supressing the gaunts allowing to walk your shotgun gun squad away and shoot at them with an other squad. Oh and if you're using the scouts' shotgun blast then you might want to try learning how to use grenades (which to be fair I don't know how to do well myself) since they can destroy gaunts or at least invest in a flamer.
Consider that whenever I speak of balance I'm speking of team games. I suck at 1v1 and I'm fine with that.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Lag » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 4:11 pm

Kvn wrote:I don't know where you're getting 't1 tanks' from. Their melee skill is part of what makes them useful to begin with as, without specials, they do very poorly against most other melee squads.

More often than not they reach squads with full model squads, something that most melee squads in t1 don't do.

The Warp Spider is meant to be annoying. It's his thing. He has a lot less outright killing power than the Techmarine and Sorc, and not nearly as much support capabilities as the Mekboy. The Warp Spider is designed to generally be a pain through his bleed potential and control abilities as, without that, he doesn't have much going for him.

So you are saying he can't be annoying without bleeding insanely while having TP and being able to do it with no danger of getting caught? "Just" bleeding isn't enough? I wasn't saying remove his damage, just nerf it.

Because he has no melee charge. The leap was added in as a buff to his brawling capabilities

Leap is okay. I was talking about knockback. Knockback would also be okay if it was a part of a purchased weapon, not in vanilla state. IMHO

Those shields are only 500 hp (less really given that they turn off while low to recharge) and play counter to Eldar strengths. They are only good while sitting static, meaning that the Eldar player isn't out capping the map, flanking, or generally getting strong positioning over their opponents. In a straight up firefight, Eldar units with the exception of the Wraithguard tend to fall apart quite badly. The shields are meant as a way to help mitigate their lack of head-to-head capabilities at the cost of speed and maneuverability.

You are talking about a faction with the fastest setting up suppression team and squads like DA and Banshee which all have one-click DR abilities, right?
And are you saying they would be rendered useless if they "just" provided green cover?

Lag wrote:Tyranids

I'm not a Nid player by any means, so I don't know their ins and outs, but Hormagaunts are also extremely frail and vulnerable to synapse bombs. In addition, they only get their leaps after buying adrenal glands. Reducing the model count of the squad would actually be a buff assuming the stats remained the same (less bleed, less vulnerability to aoe, etc.), and removing their leap would be a pretty drastic nerf to their effectiveness.

Reducing the model count and reducing their spread makes them more prone to suppression and knockback. That's all. Synapse bombs are all great but if you go for that and it doesn't pay off you have 2/3 squads with possibly the highest chase potential in T1 on your retreating squads. Watch nid players in this meta and see how many retreat wipes they get. That's all I'm saying.

Also they aren't supposed to be this effective. They effectiveness should come from numbers, spread and synapse, plus you have reinforcement global and hero abilities, and a low reinforcement cost once you hit t2. Leap is too much.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Lesten » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 4:52 pm

Lag wrote:More often than not they reach squads with full model squads, something that most melee squads in t1 don't do.

They only get the damage reduction from FoF if they have their Exarch (which is T2). Also, I have almost the complete opposite experience; that they more often than not DO lose a model before reaching their target.

And what other T1 melee squads? Sluggas, heretics and hormagaunts I assume you mean? These units can more easily afford to lose one or two models without losing to much effectiveness, and they're much cheaper to reinforce. Banshees lose a lot of effectiveness with each single loss (because they're only 5 models to begin with), compared to those other squads. And they bleed you like crazy. These days I practically only get banshees to counter-initiate, which they are very good at, but otherwise they're rarely worth the bleed.

Lag wrote:You are talking about a faction with the fastest setting up suppression team and squads like DA and Banshee which all have one-click DR abilities, right?
And are you saying they would be rendered useless if they "just" provided green cover?

Not sure if he meant useless, but I'm not sure I would ever build them if they only provided green cover, unless they got buffed in some other way. Shields aren't instant (they takes 1-2 seconds to build), costs 45 energy and placement is often tricky. And they still get shot down in seconds. Crushing commanders, sentinels and jump troops instantly destroy them too. Plus they also get destroyed by shuriken platforms if they're set up too far behind the shield.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to there being a limit to how many active shields a DA squad can have at one time. Would force you to be a bit more thoughtful about your shield placement instead of just spewing them up everywhere. Though they would probably need a small buff in return for that.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Lag » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 4:56 pm

Like I said - I'm only sure of the things I've said about IG and Orks. I could be wrong about Shees.
Shields go down just like IG walls go down (plus just like bunkers gent cancelled in the same "walkover" fashion). Increase health of shields, give it green cover - should be fine. :)
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Kvn » Sun 20 Mar, 2016 10:37 pm

@Metal COMmander I meant keeping the squad's stats the same as a whole, meaning same health total and dps with fewer models. Kind of like what happened with Plague Marines going from four models to three. Sorry if that was unclear.

Lag wrote:More often than not they reach squads with full model squads, something that most melee squads in t1 don't do.


That's the point of using them. Banshees aren't cannon fodder units you throw into a meat grinder and muscle through with. If you try to use them that way, you're going to lose the game. They need to be delivered to their target without taking losses in order to be capable of killing/forcing off the enemy, as well as making them cost-effective. Just for reference, a Tac squad can win against four unupgraded Banshee models so long as they don't get a special-chain going.

So you are saying he can't be annoying without bleeding insanely while having TP and being able to do it with no danger of getting caught? "Just" bleeding isn't enough? I wasn't saying remove his damage, just nerf it.


Yes. That's what I'm saying. Firstly, he isn't "bleeding insanely" to begin with. He's very good at picking off units such as Scouts, but his damage output isn't as high as you seem to think it is. Against heavy infantry, he's almost a non-issue except when he's tying them up in melee to stall you. His damage has already been nerfed. No reason to pound it into the ground.

Leap is okay. I was talking about knockback. Knockback would also be okay if it was a part of a purchased weapon, not in vanilla state. IMHO


He needs that to get an attack off. Kiting the Warlock without his knockback would be laughably easy given he has no melee charge. Remember, this is a squishy Eldar hero we're talking about, not a tanky Chaos Lord.

You are talking about a faction with the fastest setting up suppression team and squads like DA and Banshee which all have one-click DR abilities, right?
And are you saying they would be rendered useless if they "just" provided green cover?


Let me pose a question of my own. Is the Imperial Guard Deployable Cover a potent ability? Making the shields green cover would turn them into strictly worse versions of that. They cost energy, can't be put up in the middle of a fight, die to all incoming fire as opposed to just aoe, etc. In short, yes. They would be useless. Definitely not worth the forty five energy on an already energy intensive squad.

Reducing the model count and reducing their spread makes them more prone to suppression and knockback. That's all. Synapse bombs are all great but if you go for that and it doesn't pay off you have 2/3 squads with possibly the highest chase potential in T1 on your retreating squads. Watch nid players in this meta and see how many retreat wipes they get. That's all I'm saying.

Also they aren't supposed to be this effective. They effectiveness should come from numbers, spread and synapse, plus you have reinforcement global and hero abilities, and a low reinforcement cost once you hit t2. Leap is too much.


All right. I apologize if this sounds harsh, but you aren't making a lot of sense here. You complain that they have too many models and too many squads out, but want them to be more reliant on numbers and in-race synergy? You realize that you're asking for more of what you want nerfed, right?

I know all about their wipe potential, and I also know that a lot of it comes from the person on the receiving end overextending. If you're getting overwhelmed, you should either pull back or retreat. You can't stick it in as long as you can against something like Heretics (or Banshees at this stage). They are still very vulnerable to knockback and suppression, even if it does occasionally bug out, so the trick is getting your units in the right position. What's more, when you look at the combat effectiveness of Gaunts, they fall off quite a bit as the game goes on. Nerfing their early game potential to be more in-line with other squads would hurt quite a bit I imagine, given that it's the point in the game where they're meant to be at their strongest, where as those they are being compared to scale quite a bit better.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby HARRYY » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 3:55 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Imperial Guard
The priority lies with the INQ wargear and the bane wolf drop if it were up to me.

INQ T1 gear seriously needs a price adjustment or the duration of pyre+crippling volley must be decreased. execrutators could go with a simple price increase since this ability is just golden, but acceptable for a T2 gear. ability-snares are sooo useful against T3 Infantry. LC/LG lack so incredibly in binding stuff......

Lag wrote: .... The thing with spotters is - they are a specialist unit. ....The spotters are a temporary solution to a setup team .... ....Anyway, what I'm suggesting is nothing radical..... Reduce the power and req cost of spotters and raise their reinforcement cost even more. That way IG players need to be careful with them, but also can get them easier and the price reflects their effective usefulness.
Thank your for supporting my clinch with the artillery spotters... made some Suggestion in the "IG thread".


1 Question:
DA using FoF is still resulting in lower ranged damage for the Duration?
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Kvn » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 4:23 pm

HARRYY wrote:1 Question:
DA using FoF is still resulting in lower ranged damage for the Duration?


Yep. All Eldar units using FoF have reduced damage (40% less melee and 80% less ranged) for the duration.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 5:47 pm

Lag wrote:IG/setupteams
If IG's only "struggle" is suppression then that's more than fine, any race needs a drawback. (not that I agree on that drawback)
IG heroes are speed 5.5, not slow at all! Not to mention the LC with the power sword...
Lag wrote:spotters
Why does everyone seem to ignore: shell behind setupteam --> kb into your ranged blob --> profit.
1 spotter squad can already counter 2 setupteams in combination with their army, they are plenty efficient.
Spotter not only work great versus setupteams, they work great versus any ranged blob and that includes vs tanks when using their smoke shell.
Lag wrote:Orks
Shootas got their damage decreased in T1, come T2 they get their original retail damage back so they can scale a bit better. Doesn't feel like it needs a nerf.
You should have a detector versus the KN, increasing the cost of hide da boys makes no sense to me :/
The trukk might be a little bit under costed.
Yeah, shotgun with that passive KB change and ability are brutal, probably a little bit too much.
Lag wrote:Eldar
Banshees don't get a damage reduction when they scream. Rest has been covered by others already.
WSE has too much going for him, don't forget he also has a 360 melee special cuz reasons :)
Shields aren't instantly put up. Try it while in a ranged fight. It's very strong indeed but had a good tone down in Elite already. It's rather fine imo.
The manticore now also has the privilege of penetrating the shields a bit.
Lag wrote:Hormagaunts
Hormagaunts seem rather fine to me too.


Kvn wrote:The Warp Spider is meant to be annoying. It's his thing. He has a lot less outright killing power than the Techmarine and Sorc, and not nearly as much support capabilities as the Mekboy. The Warp Spider is designed to generally be a pain through his bleed potential and control abilities as, without that, he doesn't have much going for him.
The wse has everything going for him and a wargear for every situation ... :/
Kvn wrote:Destructor has also been nerfed since the bolts (now two instead of one, each doing half damage) don't hit in the same spot, making it much more difficult to land that perfect strike.
That's a buff as it hits more reliably and does more damage now (changed damage type).
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Kvn » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 5:56 pm

Dark Riku wrote:The wse has everything going for him and a wargear for every situation ... :/


That's a pretty drastic exaggeration, for the same reasons I already went over.

Dark Riku wrote:That's a buff as it hits more reliably and does more damage now (changed damage type).


I thought that as well at first, but after playing around with the Warlock for a bit, as well as watching higher-level players use him, I've found that to be much less true. Destructor is one of those abilities that has to hit a sweet spot on a targeted squad (tics being a perfect example) or else its effectiveness is drastically lessened. With the new scatter added into it, even those kinds of minute changes can make it a lot less potent. On paper, the damage has been increased, and there are situations in which it does hit harder, but the average has gone down by a fair amount.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby HARRYY » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 6:38 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Why does everyone seem to ignore: shell behind setupteam --> kb into your ranged blob --> profit.
1 spotter squad can already counter 2 setupteams in combination with their army, they are plenty efficient.
but not efficient enough for 30 power.

You usually cannot affort more than ONE T1.5 in tier1. That is since you really need some other stuff. When you say "Counter 2 setup Teams" then Id have to say you use the wrong term. A classical counter is acting like ASM to HWTs. spotters do fulfil a pretty different and niche role, they disable for some seconds (smoke) and give a Chance to KB (or knock-Forward) a Setup Team - true. but thats it.
They Need a slight tweak to give them a worthy appearance.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Laplace's Demon » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 6:52 pm

Kvn wrote:
Dark Riku wrote:The wse has everything going for him and a wargear for every situation ... :/


That's a pretty drastic exaggeration, for the same reasons I already went over.

Dark Riku wrote:That's a buff as it hits more reliably and does more damage now (changed damage type).


I thought that as well at first, but after playing around with the Warlock for a bit, as well as watching higher-level players use him, I've found that to be much less true. Destructor is one of those abilities that has to hit a sweet spot on a targeted squad (tics being a perfect example) or else its effectiveness is drastically lessened. With the new scatter added into it, even those kinds of minute changes can make it a lot less potent. On paper, the damage has been increased, and there are situations in which it does hit harder, but the average has gone down by a fair amount.


We all know Dark Riku has it in for Eldar Kvn. No need to incite.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Crewfinity » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 6:57 pm

HARRYY wrote:
Dark Riku wrote:Why does everyone seem to ignore: shell behind setupteam --> kb into your ranged blob --> profit.
1 spotter squad can already counter 2 setupteams in combination with their army, they are plenty efficient.
but not efficient enough for 30 power.

You usually cannot affort more than ONE T1.5 in tier1. That is since you really need some other stuff. When you say "Counter 2 setup Teams" then Id have to say you use the wrong term. A classical counter is acting like ASM to HWTs. spotters do fulfil a pretty different and niche role, they disable for some seconds (smoke) and give a Chance to KB (or knock-Forward) a Setup Team - true. but thats it.
They Need a slight tweak to give them a worthy appearance.



I disagree with this. if the enemy can afford 2 setup teams both costing 30 power, you can counter them both with one spotter squad, for half the power cost. that's even more efficient than asm, and they dont even have to worry about counter-initiation or getting bled since they rely on abilities rather than melee. IG is awesome at forcing off setup teams who cant shoot back (smoke) or are out of cover (mortar). I'd say they counter setup teams a lot more reliably than asm do, who are weak to doomblast, hero stuns, melee counterinitiation, etc, and have much more of a chance to bleed since they have to expose themselves and commit to a jump to disrupt setup teams. spotters can just safely lurk around and keep using their abilities with no downsides.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Cyris » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 7:24 pm

If anyone cares, I think Spotters are either overcosted or could stand to have more impact for their cost. Their abilities simply aren't good enough to justify the complete lack of combat impact once on cooldown, while sporting the same price as a setup team. But there are plenty of people are talking on both sides of this, so I don't have much to add except to say that this:

HARRYY wrote:You usually cannot affort more than ONE T1.5 in tier1.

Is complete nonsense. I regularly made 2-3 T1.5 units as IG and it worked just fine, and I think allows them some real big T1 aggression which lets them transition into defensive play in T2.

IG have some wierd matchups and scaling due to sents and GM's being two of the weirder T1 units in DoW. But let's tamp down the hyperbole a bit. I know you are a solid player Harry, and smarter then this ;)
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 10:47 pm

Laplace's Demon wrote:We all know Dark Riku has it in for Eldar Kvn. No need to incite.
Guess that's why I'm also defending Eldar. Oh wait, that doesn't make sense now does it? °_O

I'm not changing my opinion on spotters just because of what you are saying Harry, because non of those things are true based on my personal experience. There is no need to keep going in circles like this, doesn't help the case further.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby HARRYY » Tue 22 Mar, 2016 9:04 am

Crewfinity wrote:
I disagree with this. if the enemy can afford 2 setup teams both costing 30 power, you can counter them both with one spotter squad, for half the power cost.

Crewy, this is totally wrong as you use the wrong term here. its noz a classical "counter". with only 1 spotter you can delay them a bit, but thats it. You need more than only 1x spotters (hwt, catas, INQ-wargears).
If you went 2x T1.5 units as IG you have an overall disadvatange due to upkeep/reinforcement-costs/power-costs ... you lose tech-speed and the usually safed requisiton for IG's T2. With such a setup, IG T2 is going weird. As Tex said in another Thread, IG tier 2 is something very strict. 1 wrong choice, its GG. Most commonly its un-upgraded Stormtroopers T2 and then react.. If you come T2 with a crippled ECO already, you can throw the game.

Generally Id say, spotters need a tweak for a more natual access fit more into the IG-roster. A powercost-reduction gives the best access (thats my bias, not making a secret here).

With the current power costs of spotters, you play a high risk when you field them on top of HWT / catas.
If they are the only T1.5 unit, they perform not as a classical T1.5 unit countering in a classcial way. They delay.

They need a keen eye to get a proper tweak (they can easily get OP, they have the potential - I'M aware of this). Maybe caeltos could find a solution. Im a simple player suggesting a power-cost-reduction.
Cyris wrote: I regularly made 2-3 T1.5 units as IG and it worked just fine, and I think allows them some real big T1 aggression which lets them transition into defensive play in T2.

IG have some wierd matchups and scaling due to sents and GM's being two of the weirder T1 units in DoW. But let's tamp down the hyperbole a bit. I know you are a solid player Harry, and smarter then this
Man, ofc im exaggerating a bit at times. its all depending on what the enemies fields and which upgrades he uses. OFC you can play strong T1. Outcome is risky tho...
Cyris wrote:If anyone cares, I think Spotters are either overcosted or could stand to have more impact for their cost. Their abilities simply aren't good enough to justify the complete lack of combat impact once on cooldown, while sporting the same price as a setup team.
exactly my point.
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Re: 2.5.X Balance

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 22 Mar, 2016 1:20 pm

spotters are a counter to setup units in the same way you can say catachans are a counter to setup units. in that if you force off said set up unit in the time it takes for it to set back up or get its range back then yeah sure spotters are a counter.

but that relies on other units . therefore at best you can call spotters a soft counter to setup units. a hardcounter would be a jump squad which can disrupt and do enough damage to the setup unit to force it off unless it has support. That would be a good proper hard counter.


That i think is why some people dont really like the spotters. they are basically a better soft-counter than cats. but that is literally all they do. they soft counter. in some cases vs armies that you know wont use aggressive melee such as other guardsman.. eldar... and maybe even shoota heavy orks spotters would probably be a good call. but vs all others the cats would probably be the better choice just because they have a larger suite of tools available to them.

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