2.5.X Balance

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Indrid
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2.5.X Balance

Postby Indrid » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 7:35 pm

General balance discussion can go here. For more in depth concerns, feel free to make another thread.
Deflaktor
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Deflaktor » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 8:34 pm

Indrid wrote:- Loading into Land Raiders no longer makes units wait to enter (decreased maximum loading time from 5 to 0)


Can this be done to every transport vehicle? As an eldar player I often find my squads wiped because they struggle to get into the falcon. It is also against the eldar design of getting in fast, striking and retreating.
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Wise Windu
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Wise Windu » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 8:57 pm

It's already like this for other transports.
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Asmon
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Asmon » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 9:09 pm

Haha Windu you took Deflaktor's dreams and hopes, crushed them into dust, then blew them away right to his face. So mean.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Deflaktor » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 9:12 pm

well I could provide you with several replays of them awkwardly dancing around my falcon, losing models till they finally get in around 5 seconds later. But since the new version is out, Im rather gonna play it :P
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Wise Windu
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Wise Windu » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 9:38 pm

:lol: It's just that for some reason, the loading is awkward regardless of the load distance. Seems like it's often caused by pathing. And since LRs move so slowly, maybe it doesn't affect them as much.
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Oddnerd
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 9:43 pm

No more lasgun damage boost? :( :( :( :( :( :(
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Aetherion
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Aetherion » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 9:53 pm

Sorry but are there any more detailed/concrete patch notes to go on other than the WIP? Or am I just missing something?
Like where did this quote come from?

Deflaktor wrote:
Indrid wrote:- Loading into Land Raiders no longer makes units wait to enter (decreased maximum loading time from 5 to 0)


CREED FOR THE PLAN GOD
ELDRAD FOR THE DICK THRONE
just as planned
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Ace of Swords
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Ace of Swords » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 9:54 pm

Aetherion wrote:Sorry but are there any more detailed/concrete patch notes to go on other than the WIP? Or am I just missing something?
Like where did this quote come from?

Deflaktor wrote:
Indrid wrote:- Loading into Land Raiders no longer makes units wait to enter (decreased maximum loading time from 5 to 0)




https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=2385
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby DandyFrontline » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 9:55 pm

Aetherion wrote:Sorry but are there any more detailed/concrete patch notes to go on other than the WIP? Or am I just missing something?
Like where did this quote come from?

Deflaktor wrote:
Indrid wrote:- Loading into Land Raiders no longer makes units wait to enter (decreased maximum loading time from 5 to 0)




https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=2385 - in 'general'
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Aetherion
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Aetherion » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 10:01 pm

Good god i'm an idiot, thanks

DandyFrontline wrote:
Aetherion wrote:Sorry but are there any more detailed/concrete patch notes to go on other than the WIP? Or am I just missing something?
Like where did this quote come from?

Deflaktor wrote:


https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=2385 - in 'general'
CREED FOR THE PLAN GOD
ELDRAD FOR THE DICK THRONE
just as planned
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 10:17 pm

Not the best patch for Heretics. The Doomblast nerf was totally unexpected, and a bit excessive TBH. It's going to make them even more support oriented in laters stages of the game.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Oddnerd
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 10:19 pm

They are supposed to be support/fodder. That ability is really there for the suppression anyway. By making them cheaper and weaker they have fit them more tightly into their niche.
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Cheekie Monkie
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 10:55 pm

- Rhino health is now set to 500 by default (vehicle armor)
- Rhino 'Armored Plating' upgrade has been removed
- Rhino now allows for nearby squads to reinforce
- Rhino cost increased from 180/30 to 250/45

This sounds seriously juicy, will need to test how it compares to the razorback and how it fits to the GK roster.

- Zoanthrope Focused Warp Blast no longer snares vehicles

I understand that the old zoa may have been too versatile in the past, but this would make chasing transports much harder now. Alternatively, how do you now stop a charging melee walker? I guess the emphasis now is more on burst damage, a la orks rather than hard snares.

- Lictor Alpha health reduced from 630 to 600

From now on, every time I'm getting eaten by the LA I expect the voice of Forestradio to say 'focus fire the LA' to me.
Playing truth or dare with Diomedes: You dare? YOU DARE?!
Tinder with Diomedes: THINK YOU ARE MY MATCH?!
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Lichtbringer
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Lichtbringer » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 11:26 pm

I am so happy the missile damage against infantry got reduced, I get hit by those fuckers so much. 5% hitchance? Suuuure.
:D

- manticore_rocket damage modifier to units in energy shield cover increased from 0 to 0.7
meh, I guess it was kinda unfair?...

- grenade_pvp damage modifier to vehicles increased from 0.25 to 0.5
I like the design Idea behind this. If you are desperate and if you can hit the grenade on a vehicle you get a bit more out of it.

- Decreased the courage modifier while in heavy cover by 25%
What does it mean? You get more or less supressed in Heavy Cover? I guess less?

- Banshee leap breakdown time reduced 0.1 s to 0 (recover from leaps faster)
I hope it is enough.

- Destructor damage type changed from grenade_pvp to psychic_pvp
- Destructor damage reduced from 54 to 25
- Destructor now fires 2 bolts instead of 1
Not sure what exactly that means^^
So:
more damage against buildings/defenses.
1,5 instead of 1,25 against HI/SHI.
0,1 instead of 0,25 agaisnt Vehicles.
maybe more damage in retreat?

- Heavy Gauge Death Spinner now has 60% chance to knockback on hit, and can not knock back a single model more than once every 4 seconds
how long is someone knockedback?

- Phase shift now grants affected units a 40% damage reduction for 5 s when it expires
I understand why its done, but maybe its cost could get adjusted too? Or T2 or something? Does anyone actually use this wargear for anything else than comboing a nuke?
Last edited by Lichtbringer on Sun 21 Feb, 2016 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cyris
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Cyris » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 11:38 pm

I'm downloading now, but wanted to give some quick feedback to the changes that were added between the WIP patchnotes and this final list.

- Improved reliability of...

Thankyou SO much. This is the kind of non-balance related change that adds incredible value to the game experience. Can't wait to play with catas after this change.

- Heretic Doom Blast damage reduced from 25 to 15

I for one was optimistic about the tic changes, and this addition goes the rest of the way. Tics are taking an important step away from melee domination early game, in exchange for more efficient support all match long. Retail tics might be gone at last, long live ELITE tics!
Unless this ends up being as degenerate as some say. But I'm optimistic!

- Banshee leap breakdown time reduced 0.1 s to 0 (recover from leaps faster)

Fuck yes. I don't know what this MEANS per say, but it's the kindda little bump that I think shees need.

WL changes in general

Looking very forward to playing him. I still can't hit destructors worth a damn though, gotta practice up!

- Techmarine Powerful sweep ability cooldown increased from 25 to 30
- Techmarine Powerful sweep ability damage reduced from 45 to 40

We did it! DoW2 is saved!

Ordo Malleus

So psyched.

- Inquisitorial Operatives weapon cooldown time increased from 0.3 to 0.6 s

Thank god. While not an Ops change I personally would have advocated for, any nerfs are good on Ops, so I'll try it out.

- Purgation Psycannon cooldown time increased from 0 to 0.5 s

Wonderful! Irrelevant damage nerf, but now susceptible to Suppression. Yay!

- Vindicare Target Acquired reworked:
removed 50% damage buff
removed cooldown/reload debuff
added an on-hit effect granting vision of target for 10 s

Fantastic! Less spike damage.

Ok, starting a game. Maybe more later! Love the patch!
Last edited by Cyris on Mon 22 Feb, 2016 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby DandyFrontline » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 12:01 am

Cyris wrote:
- Improved reliability of...


Thankyou SO much. This is the kind of non-balance related change that adds incredible value to the game experience. Can't wait to play with catas after this change.



Wasnt use catachans in 90% of the game because of those bugs.

Played few games with cats in 2.5 - soooo sweeet!
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Rewston
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Rewston » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 12:52 am

I dont know where to put this so I'll just post it here.
On the new 2v2 map we had an issue where we could not place our third power generator on the southern most node for some reason.
Fix please :3
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby CSM Emperor » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 1:11 am

noise marine sonic flamer 1.5 sec delay ???????????
Atlas

Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Atlas » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 2:12 am

CSM Emperor wrote:noise marine sonic flamer 1.5 sec delay ???????????

Good change. Makes NM not as much of a world beater in some matchups. Esp vs Eldar.
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Wise Windu
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Wise Windu » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 3:20 am

Lichtbringer wrote:- Decreased the courage modifier while in heavy cover by 25%
What does it mean? You get more or less supressed in Heavy Cover? I guess less?
It means they take 25% less courage damage from suppression_pvp damage while in cover.

Lichtbringer wrote:- Destructor damage type changed from grenade_pvp to psychic_pvp
- Destructor damage reduced from 54 to 25
- Destructor now fires 2 bolts instead of 1
Not sure what exactly that means^^
It means more damage to HI/SHI and buildings, and also means that it fires two blasts, each of which deals 25 damage. Previously, it fired one blast and that blast dealt 54 damage, which could often miss and do nothing. With this, it isn't as all or nothing. It can at least more often do some if it's slightly off center.

Lichtbringer wrote:- Heavy Gauge Death Spinner now has 60% chance to knockback on hit, and can not knock back a single model more than once every 4 seconds
how long is someone knockedback?
Not sure how long the kb animation actually lasts. It's probably a set amount of time the unit is on the ground, and it also depends on how far the unit is knocked back. The Heavy Gauge knocks back units 2 in game meters. You'd have to time it.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Helios » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 7:20 am

Can someone please explain the reason for 6-man HWT????? Completely out of the blue and unneeded. IG already have issues with models getting into cover and was already the Suppression squad with the most models and lowest HP/model. Why make it even smaller?
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Tex » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 2:54 pm

More models to execute. Less of a burden to reinforce. It is a change directly aimed at buffing the Lord Commissar.
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Cyris
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Cyris » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 3:10 pm

Also higher overall health pool. I see it as a buff.
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby terpterp » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 4:18 pm

Helios wrote:Can someone please explain the reason for 6-man HWT????? Completely out of the blue and unneeded. IG already have issues with models getting into cover and was already the Suppression squad with the most models and lowest HP/model. Why make it even smaller?


In addition to what the others said, I think it's also a slight buff against jump troops. Each model already died in a single strike from a jump troop, and the entire squad was often lost if they weren't retreated before assault marines landed to knock them back. Takes them a little longer to get killed by low model count melee now.
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Cyris
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Cyris » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 6:32 pm

More stuff:

- Inquisitorial Stormtrooper cost increased from 210 to 225 requisition

Wow, I was not expecting IST to get touched. I personally think SS should have gotten a cost increase. The psilencer and spy-bolts cost reductions help let them scale into T2, and they were already a super strong T1 unit. The main reason I thought they were ok is cause of their mediocre T2 scaling, which seems like it is a thing of the past now. In that environment, a nerf to T1 potency seems fine. I'm already experimenting with single IST builds in favor of 2-3 ops/purg combos. Increasing their cost seems like it'll only incentivise more of this play?
In short, more req cost in OM T1 is totaly fine, I just think it would have been better to bump up SS.

- Dire Avenger cost reduced from 300 to 270

2x DA, 1x shee is SO silky smooth now. Before, you had to wait while req ticked up between the shee and the 2nd DA, now you have just enough req to field all 3 without any HQ downtime. A real nice bump in early game presence. 3x DA is not something I've managed to make work well yet, though partly this is because I've been learning WL. His buffs are neat, but I still can't seem to make him work as well for me as the other two commanders. But the patch is new, got time to experiment!
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Tex » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 8:27 pm

3 DA is a farseer thing... and its a nasty thing ;)
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby DandyFrontline » Mon 22 Feb, 2016 11:32 pm

First patch in my memory with actual chaos nerfs without buffs
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Helios » Tue 23 Feb, 2016 2:23 am

Cyris wrote:Also higher overall health pool. I see it as a buff.

I don't because now the gunner of the Heavy Bolter has less hp and that means he'll die easier. Last thing you want is a set up team having to set back up mid-fight. If I wanted more models to execute (which I really don't since they'll probably get jumped on) I would think adding one more and lowering the hp to 165 would have been fair enough.
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Forestradio
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Re: 2.5.0 Balance

Postby Forestradio » Tue 23 Feb, 2016 2:53 am

General Feedback on Tyranid Changes:

Ravener Alpha
The burrow trap change is great, ubiquitous detection means that mines are not as powerful as they once used to be, and lessening their energy cost is a nice way of making them stay relevant as retreat path killers and area denial tools.
Crippling talon change is good if you don’t also want to buy the hardened chitin in t1, giving the Ravener Alpha a bit more sustainability. Perhaps we’ll see some more toxic miasma+crippling talon builds, although the RA is literally the least played hero in the game and melee RA is almost never seen as a result. Something that could bear looking at in the future is the slow on vehicles from crippling talon.

Termagants
Cost increase… I’m a bit skeptical of this change. I don’t think that termagaunts are overperforming in the early stages of the game, or in t1.5, which is when this change most effects them. If something is going to be changed, then I would look at their t2 performance, which is amplified by endless swarm for very little cost (10 models and 8 population means that endless swarm doesn’t cost any upkeep at all…)

Zoanthrope
Good changes all around here, not sure if the twenty power increase was necessary, I would make it fifty power and start from there. The main problem (zoans filling every hole in the nid roster) should be gone with the vehicle snare, and the slight nerf on termagaunts should make nid ranged blobs less attractive in general.

Genestealers
Adrenal Rush tweak is great, it should be more about getting into combat and sustaining combat than instawiping things on retreat path. With the loss of zoanthrope snare, heavy melee is very interesting, and a nice way to reintroduce melee builds into tyranids (building genes blindly can sometimes leave some req issues which prevents venoms to come out… it’s a tricky thing to manage). It’s also a general damage buff against infantry and heroes—might be a bit OTT in the non-WB ork and eldar matchups but we’ll see.

T3 Lictor
70 melee skill means leveled dedicated melee will still hard counter him (as intended) but it won’t be such a risk to have the lictor engage melee. Good change.
One thing that would be interesting would be to remove synapse benefits and synapse backlash from the t3 lictor (to make it more independent) and perhaps some assign some other kind of benefit while the lictor is away from friendly troops (like hp regen or something). But the unit is good, has a clear role, and should be more attractive now.

Carnifex
Would still like to see the venom cannon upgrade nudged down to 35 power while the barbed strangler goes up to 50 power. Barbed Strangler gives great anti-all damage and control in very large spikes, plus a free (!!!!!) unit, venom cannon carnifex feels much more niche and its ability is not quite as useful (except for knocking away av setup teams which isn't insignificant especially to the fex but still not as good as instant spore drops for anti melee/comboing with BS AoE).

Good tyranid patch.

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