A few things before patch hits...

[Tex]

With the recent influx of games thanks to our lovely ranking system, I have had a chance to use or witness every hero and race being used. I have noticed a few things and I want to see if I'm on crack, or if there are some folks who agree.
I'm likely to add a few things as time passes, but this is what comes to mind so far:

1) Warlock has been made into a spell caster, sort of. He has certainly lost his ability to brawl past T1, and he is now stuck being rather ineffectual in T2 and onwards. I like that he is getting some changes, but his energy costs and performance are just not jiving. Instead of taking a step backward, lets take a step forward and actually make him do the spell casting thing well. I don't think this will overlap with the FS because the spells are actually quite different.
A couple things I think could be done would be to allow warp throw to be casted without vision, and to increase it's cast range slightly. Also, I would love to see a change made to immolate so that either a) the aoe is made a tiny bit larger or b) units that walk out of immolate have a small burn damage DoT. A last suggestion which might be unpopular, is that I think it is time to look at giving a little bit of power back to the MWB. It is no longer the ultra dominant weapon that it was before (because the WL cant tank past T1). I don't want to go back to perma knockback and w/e. I just want to see the warlock get some jam back.

2) IG vs Orks is a fucking joke. Seriously. It's on par with SM vs Nids. Instead of ranting, here are my thoughts in point form on this one:

-Spotters don't detect, so you have no utility for them in the KN matchup
-Spotters are a shit unit against warboss and you need dps to force him off, yet you really need spotters to shut down shootas.
-Proceed to shoot yourself if you are against a good mekboy... not even going there.
-Catachans are a unit you absolutely must not build against orks, and yet, you need them so badly to provide dps against warboss, and melee deterent.
-Catachans are really struggling in periphery fights, I attribute this largely to their shotgun blast not performing properly.
****PLEASE NOTE, ON PAPER, CATACHAN SHOTGUN BLAST IS BETTER THAN SCOUT SHOTGUN BLAST (costs less energy) BUT IF YOU SEE HOW IT WORKS IN GAME, THEN YOU KNOW IT SUCKS ASS****
-Catachan sargent is too expensive for what he offers
-ol'reliable has linear knockback instead of circular knockback

Now, as far as I know, catachans aren't a game breaking unit in any matchup, so I'm hoping that a few tweaks aren't going to flush balance right down the tubes. But if catachans are going to remain as primary utility and detector unit for IG, then they MUST be useable in this matchup.

I'm suggesting that catachans get a small ranged damage increase (5%), have their shotgun blast looked at, ol'reliable knockback pattern is randomized if possible (circular might end up being OP?), lower price of sarge to 60-20, and increase their movespeed is increased to 5.75.

In all honesty, its more like a pick and choose list...
I feel like the most important ones are the shotgun blast and the movespeed though. Catachans really need to be able to get it done of the periphery of combat.

3) The Icon's of FAIL

All three chaos icons are brutal purchases. The most useful one is the icon of tzeentch, but it only works against nids and IG, and is a 100% luxury item.

I suggest IoT gets an increase in cast range. That's it.

I suggest IoN allows the PC to actually catch stuff in melee combat. The damage it does is insignificant. Lets make it give him a slow aura to infantry and vehicles of ~15%ish, range consistent with that of other "totem" wargears.

IoK is a joke. Want to know why it isn't ever purchased? Because you can't keep your chaos lord in melee anyway, that's why! Let's stop beating around the bush with this wargear. It needs to increase the charge range of the chaos lord/lower charge cooldown so that he can constantly be hitting shit with his next most useless wargear, the lightning claws.

BHAAHAHAH I don't even play chaos lord and this shit drives me nuts.

4) LA

Why the F*&% does he still do damage from deadly jump? I suppose its not enough that he can just counter a setup team with fleshhook or cloaking right from birth...
Also, energy management needs to be a priority with this hero. Its been obvious for a long time I feel like. Right now, its a non existant issue.
Just think about the way his wargears line up. Why the hell would you ever buy his AOE wargear when his jump wargear offers AOE??????????????????
Why the hell would you ever buy his energy wargear, when he never needs to have more energy???????????????

AHAGAHGHAGHAGHAGHGAHGHAGAGHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

lol...feels good to rant. Haven't done this in so long!

More to come probably... I need to get some sleep.

[Forestradio]

u forgot to mention that going more than 1 scout against gk is 100% impossible unless the gk micros with his feet and eats a pizza the entire match

dead srs, this mu is a fucking joke where sm can't defend their power in early t1, can't push enemy power in late t1 without getting HEAVILY outteched, can't fight gk on equal footing in t2 at all if the gk has half a brain

and i don't think i need to point out what happens in t3 of this mu

tm has the best shot of it but it's still not winnable by any means from a competitive standpoint

fix plz

Why the hell would you ever buy his AOE wargear when his jump wargear offers AOE??????????????????

the toxic wargear is amazing, cheap as chips and gives the la insane hp regen while active
i use it LOT against chaos, sometimes orks or even eldar (since t1 burrowing kasrkin i mean raveners deal with shuries)

some replays against Darkhero's sorcerer, i do get deadly jump in one or two of them but the rest are all cysts+scything talons, and im of the opinion that toxic cysts is amazing
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=432
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=429
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=424
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=385
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=290
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=289

[Asmon]

Warpthrow can already been casted without LoS. Increase cast range well whatever, you cannot use it since your WL doesn't kill anything anymore, thus is not leveled, thus has no energy to spare for a warpthrow. That you must cast at max range if you don't want your WL to be kb-ed then stuck in the infernal loop of retardness.

If we want to improve WL we need to look at his core abilities. Leap is inconsistant. His default special is too slow. Destructor is useless past T1 (and sometimes from the start, against SM for example). The low melee damage of his weapons compared to other offensive heroes, that was relevant before, isn't anymore. CoS is bugged.

Atm WL is just here to troll Nurland =) FS and WSE are better for everything, save SwM.

What you suggest about Immolator sounds good, but doesn't solve anything. FS with Doombringer and RoR, without attacking but only through support, is better than any WL spell casting.


Catachans are stupid. The one T1/2 squad in the whole game, that doesn't lose a model after 7 ranger shots (some guided). They might be part of the solution to the IG vs Orkz match-up, whatever.

Buffing IoN via a slow aura? In Indrid's wet dreams perhaps. A better melee charge if you want. Buffing IoK whereas tics should be worshipping doesn't feel right.

About LA I lost faith that Caeltos will ever tone his wargears down.

[CSM Emperor]

some good things mentioned here.

[Caeltos]

Warlock improvements - Check

IG vs Ork early-game tune-ups (Generally Imperial Guard tune-ups) - Check

Lictor Alpha nerfs (in general) - Check

Tyranid ramping up nerfs - Check

Lord Commissar now actually gains benefit from cover - Check (Previously, he didn't gain ANY benefit from it, so this is bug fix)

Ol'reliable tweaks - Check

Imperial Guard economy-tune up - Check


As said before, the 2.5 changelog that was posted on the forums is not the finalized version.

[Atlas]

Sounds great!

Fix other really 1 sided matchups like ig vs eldar and gk vs sm and we've got the Chosen Patch :O

[Ace of Swords]

IG vs Orks is a problem on the orks end, the warboss is unkillable because of his spiky armor and globals, this is a problem for everyone, you can literally Amove him and he will shit all over chaos and SM, if anything IG is the one with the most dps and way to control him, KN is rather fine, Mek still has a few broken wargears.

[Adeptus Noobus]

+

- Grants the Unholy Stench ability, which damages and suppresses enemies around the Plague Champion. Also increases health by 150.
- Grants the Plague Champion a permanent aura of decay, dealing 10 piercing damage every 2.5 seconds to enemy infantry in radius 22.

This combination already slows, and damages + damages over time. I too would really like to see an increase in the melee charge with this wargear to increase his melee effectiveness so he does not get kited so badly. That is just me though (and Asmon apparently).

Icon of Khorne should be fine because the Chaos Lord does have speed worship which should address the problems you have with this, Tex.

I agree with the Warp Throw cast range increase (currently range 12). It always felt odd that the range was so small. It need not counter setup teams but it could receive a buff to make it more viable. @Asmon: The problems with the knockback should be solved by the Psychic Shield. It grants him knockback immunity. That is the reason why it also synergies well with Channeling Runes, but I don't have to tell a Warlock main that.

Hearing that Caeltos & Co. addressed some of the issues that were mentioned here calms my mind greatly. I would really like to see his ideas concerning the SM v GK matchup. As Forest mentions, Scouts become useless in this matchup because they get obliterated by Operatives, which severely cripples their hold on the map. From the GK changes that have been posted so far it does not seem likely to change. GK will suffer from the BC nerfs, obviously, but Operatives are still a thing. Reducing their range by 2 will not solve the issues that many have with them. Also, reinforcing GKs on the field in 2.5 seems like the biggest buff you could ever give them. The only way you can get stuff done vs them is when you force them off the field. Nobody expects GKs to play the new Rhino like the Wartrukk, especially since the eco does not even make this possible but I fear that without some turn-downs in exchange for their key units, this will become a problem as well. (I know that not everything has been posted)

[Asmon]

Wait, warpthrow has range 40, which is average vision range. The 12 that you refer to is the actual radius of the AoE.

Now I'm not sure which stat Tex wanted raised when he posted. As I've already said to increase the cast range is not a bad idea but is only a small buff that achieves nothing. To increase the AoE radius would be either unsignificant or OP.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Wait, warpthrow has range 40, which is average vision range. The 12 that you refer to is the actual radius of the AoE.

Now I'm not sure which stat Tex wanted raised when he posted. As I've already said to increase the cast range is not a bad idea but is only a small buff that achieves nothing. To increase the AoE radius would be either unsignificant or OP.

Oops, you are completely right about that. With that in mind I do not see how it could be changed so that it becomes more valuable if indeed you can cast it without LoS.

[Cheekie Monkie]

u forgot to mention that going more than 1 scout against gk is 100% impossible unless the gk micros with his feet and eats a pizza the entire match

dead srs, this mu is a fucking joke where sm can't defend their power in early t1, can't push enemy power in late t1 without getting HEAVILY outteched, can't fight gk on equal footing in t2 at all if the gk has half a brain

and i don't think i need to point out what happens in t3 of this mu

tm has the best shot of it but it's still not winnable by any means from a competitive standpoint

fix plz

Whilst true, I'm at a loss as to figuring out how you can fix this MU without breaking the other matchups. Even with the aegis T2 switch, unending purge would still be able to tank anything the SM T1 roster has. Maybe the Apo bolter can immobilise a single target rather than KB, but other than that I can't think up of anything.

[Black Relic]

I already gave a suggestion in a way to fix this. Not totally sure it would work. ANd here is my another suggestion. Increase the acolyte's cost to something like 80/20. The damage increase this guy gives is quite a bit. Pair two of them together have they do a very large amount of damage. Now that purgation is going back to t1 is think this is totally acceptable.

[Tex]

Okay so maybe some clarification is required on some points then?

1) Icon of nurgle sucks. You can know this already just by seeing its sheer lack of usage, OR you can try it yourself, and realize that what it does comes in a much more condensed package a tier earlier.
What I am suggesting for the IoN is to scrap the DoT effect, and instead replace it with a 15% slowing effect on ALL enemies within range of the aura. I figured it was intuitive that this would synergize well with the plague fist in regards to late game combat and getting hits in against fast attack units or vehicles... but hey...

2) In regards to increasing the cast range of warpthrow, I would argue that it is a massively important buff to the warlock. As I said before, he is no longer a brawler past T1. He is now transformed into a not so great warrior/spellcaster. Increasing the range on warpthrow would allow the warlock to support wraithlords in a way that the other elder heroes cant, that being, grabbing las cannons out of the fog of war and allowing your wraithlord to get into combat much healthier (especially since it has 200 less hp now). Further, increased range on warpthrow would mean that the warlock can remain in counter-initiation position, vs needing to run up and get shot to all hell in order to cast this successfully.

3) Icon of khorne sucks. All of a sudden the argument is that "well, because worship" so now that makes it functional? Please apply this to in-game mechanics, and not fantasy land. The chaos lord spends most of his time alone because he is a fantastic map control unit/hero. The icon of khorne is an ego-centric wargear that doesn't work (well). What I am proposing would make it work as a standalone wargear, and would also make using the lit claws a more do-able thing.
If you think this wargear needs to be around worship to work, well then next patch, that means this wargear will cost 290 req. ????!!!one1one??

4) Catachans might be stupidly hard to bleed with sniper fire because of their multi-leader mechanic, but what else do IG have to counter snipers until they get AKST's? And seriously, catachans can land ol'reliable against snipers and then what? Charge them down with their shotguns? I don't think this is a valid complaint.

[Odysseus]

Warlock improvements - Check

IG vs Ork early-game tune-ups (Generally Imperial Guard tune-ups) - Check

Lictor Alpha nerfs (in general) - Check

Tyranid ramping up nerfs - Check

Lord Commissar now actually gains benefit from cover - Check (Previously, he didn't gain ANY benefit from it, so this is bug fix)

Ol'reliable tweaks - Check

Imperial Guard economy-tune up - Check


As said before, the 2.5 changelog that was posted on the forums is not the finalized version.

Nghhh. Hype - Check

[Asmon]

This warpthrow story makes little sense to me. Sure a higher cast range grants safer cast, and it might allow to deter lascannons shots (though a skilled opponent can set up his units so that warpthrow cannot pull them far away from their positions thanks to cover and such). But that remains a secondary buff. Has warpthrow become mandatory all of a sudden to have a competitive WL? I want a vanilla WL to be almost as good as a vanilla FS or WSE. Simple and clear.

IoN isn't very good atm. But it would be way too good with that slow aura. I don't want an unknockable PC with Fist, good anti-melee ability now chasing efficiently ranged squads and vehicles. I think you underestimate the consequences of a good melee charge for beafy heroes, and how anything that grants them the ability to stay in melee range is dangerous. No matter how slow they are. Once they engage, you've lost if you cannot kite them away.

I just hate catachans. Feel free to buff them to deal with Orkz.

[Forestradio]

the problem with sm vs gk is not found in ist at all imo, they are not much of a threat if you use cover ever so carefully and don't get caught out

the problem is threefold tbh:
1. scouts don't counter ...anything in gk t1 before power atm tac>ist>scout>(nothing)
and strikes>tac/scout
things like the MCB can swing these dynamics ofc but they are not present in the early stage of the map
so scouts get to cap and that's it, they can try and dps down the BC but not really
you also CANNOT ninja-cap with default scouts at all, after the first (lost) engagement operatives hit the field and if you try to decap the gk natural vp/req you're going to lose at least 1 model, and perhaps 2
2. scouts don't really counter operatives either, with a sarge that would be the theory but they still lose models instantly, and NEED infiltration in order to pose any threat with nades or sneak around unscathed...
3. there is not much opportunity to push back in t2, lasrhino denies any sort of rb genfarm push, libby and vindicare are both amazing counters to sm infantry (and vehicles as va), and purgations can hold back melee dread pushes easily

what can work is if the gk just skips his t2 aside from wargear+av (to get the rb) and tries to go straight for paladins, then you can get a dread+libby (for potential force barrier, and smite is gud to bleed strikes) and starting spamming plastacs: get one on your original squad and then use drop pod as reinforcement to get more, as well as whatever hero wargear is going to help: from a tm perspective this will be mark target+plasma gun, replacing perhaps the mcb or artificer armor

BUT if the gk doesn't skip his t2, and actually invests in it and begins to press even harder in t2 it just isn't really viable to overcome

Accompanying replay evidence:

https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=745
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/index.ph ... hes&id=441

[CSM Emperor]

Warlock improvements - Check

IG vs Ork early-game tune-ups (Generally Imperial Guard tune-ups) - Check

Lictor Alpha nerfs (in general) - Check

Tyranid ramping up nerfs - Check

Lord Commissar now actually gains benefit from cover - Check (Previously, he didn't gain ANY benefit from it, so this is bug fix)

Ol'reliable tweaks - Check

Imperial Guard economy-tune up - Check


As said before, the 2.5 changelog that was posted on the forums is not the finalized version.

good changes.

[Tex]

To add a couple things:

Banshee exarch could use a slight price reduction. By sheer weight of total deaths, I think 80-20 is justified.

Also, I think bionics is way too all or nothing, and I also think that the wargear is slightly OP for 20 power. Does it sound reasonable to halve the cooldown, but also halve the damage? Would allow more knockback, but less instant wipe potential as well as retreat kill cheese in the early game.

[Nurland]

Powerful sweep already has a fairly low CD. It is 25 seconds. So a 12-13 second CD could maybe be a bit too much disruption to melee. Not sure though.

[Toilailee]

To add a couple things:

Banshee exarch could use a slight price reduction. By sheer weight of total deaths, I think 80-20 is justified.

Also, I think bionics is way too all or nothing, and I also think that the wargear is slightly OP for 20 power. Does it sound reasonable to halve the cooldown, but also halve the damage? Would allow more knockback, but less instant wipe potential as well as retreat kill cheese in the early game.

The cooldown is alredy super short and you can use it twice in longish engagements, just increase it by some 5-10 seconds without changing the damage and it'll still be more than worth it to buy.

[egewithin]

Icon of Nurgle is totally okay. Yes, it is redicilious vs IG but generally all other AoE weapons are too good vs IG, I even go for flamer just for it, not for power bash if I am SM.

Icon of Khorne is only impracticle. Heal amount on hit is okay but come on, if you want to be tanky, only way is Harness of Rage + Dark Halo combo. Not saying it should be rewritten but can be changed into something much easyer to achive. For me, increasing the speed from 4.5 to 5.0 would be cool. Yeeeeess yeees, the worship, I know but come on! It is T2.

[Cyris]

Nice thread. Since I don't have access to secret patch notes, all comments are based on 2.4.2 and the currently public patch notes.

I recently finished my "tour" with IG and have moved onto Eldar. I've talked about in other threads why I'm concerned with DA price reduction (I think the unit is very potent already). The real concern I have is shees though. I never mained Eldar while shees had their old retreat killing skills, but my goodness does the current unit unimpress me. The urgency players felt to drive off the shees is greatly diminished, reducing their ability to draw priority fire and abilities away from other squads. Their ability to 1v1 other melee squads has reduced as well. Melee fights often hinge on players playing the retreat chicken game - attempting to judge the point where retreat would spell doom, and deciding to stay or go before then. Shees retreat killing aptitude used to force this very early, allowing them to preform above their raw stats.

I am not experienced enough with Eldar yet to have a strong belief in this. Maybe the cost reduction and micro tricks with leap were enough, and I need to learn to use them better (leap into shout works well for quick initiations). Maybe I need to focus on more commander/global support. I just can't shake the feeling that fear of toxic aspects of the units past (and toxic they were) has relegated it to a lackluster state. I don't even have strong feelings on what I'd like to see changed, just that I hope some attention is being paid on them. Exarch cost reduction could be a start, but not relevant till T2. DA cost reduction is also going to compound this.

The cooldown is alredy super short and you can use it twice in longish engagements, just increase it by some 5-10 seconds without changing the damage and it'll still be more than worth it to buy.

Totally agree here. Right now Bionics has good stats, potency and frequency. It'd still be a great purchase if the frequency went down a bit.

[Forestradio]

the damage on bionics is totally fine, and like all similar abilities it can be baited

just increase the cd a bit as Toil said, and let's not forget that bionics is supposed to remain potent to be used along with axe+shield in t2 for a melee tm

[Toilailee]

Yes, every1 should listen to Toil more. :]

[Nurland]

You should host a DoW related talk show "Toilet Talks"

[Odysseus]

You should host a DoW related talk show "Toilet Talks"

I'd be in for that.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Icon of Nurgle works best as a deffensive with offensive effect wargear against low HP high models melee squads. (Heavy hormagaunt build and in lesser Orks)

Problem is PC already have great tools against that builds.

Icon of Khorne its simply overshadow by the rest of accessory and the Harness + Dark Halo combo.

Icon of Khorne could have some kind of Unending Purge effect while the Chaos Lord have low HP. Or make it increase the healing effect done by Chaos Lord healing spells.

[Unknown Stranger]

I'll speak about cata. I play ig often and imo cata in current state op as fuck. They inexpensive doing decent ranged and melee dmg and on first lvl they already can use both ol' reliable and explosive shot. So i think cata should be slightly nerfed first of all their melee dmg profile should be changed to melee (bcz this is stupid when cata easily destroys asm or raps in melee), their ranged dmg should slightly nerfed too bcz their shotgunz is fukin nightmare for orkz and other units with inf armor. Melta dmg of sarge should be nerfed too, it's too high for grade price plus his passive infiltration. One more thing, dmg of improvised explos to building light armor should be nerfed coz with cata i'm bashing gens in secs. So, in general changing type of melee dmg, slight nerf of ranged dmg (sarges melta dmg too), decreasing dmg of IE to building light will make cata finally balanced.

[egewithin]

I'll speak about cata. I play ig often and imo cata in current state op as fuck. They inexpensive doing decent ranged and melee dmg and on first lvl they already can use both ol' reliable and explosive shot. So i think cata should be slightly nerfed first of all their melee dmg profile should be changed to melee (bcz this is stupid when cata easily destroys asm or raps in melee), their ranged dmg should slightly nerfed too bcz their shotgunz is fukin nightmare for orkz and other units with inf armor. Melta dmg of sarge should be nerfed too, it's too high for grade price plus his passive infiltration. One more thing, dmg of improvised explos to building light armor should be nerfed coz with cata i'm bashing gens in secs. So, in general changing type of melee dmg, slight nerf of ranged dmg (sarges melta dmg too), decreasing dmg of IE to building light will make cata finally balanced.

Cats are balanced enough. They have enough weakneses too. The problem is, they are waaaay to hard to deal with if the player has skills. Sadly, no one can do something about it.

[Unknown Stranger]

Cats are balanced enough. They have enough weakneses too. The problem is, they are waaaay to hard to deal with if the player has skills. Sadly, no one can do something about it.

Man i'm an ig player and i say that they are fukin broken they got to be nerfed otherwise where will be no balance in ig mas.