TCSM, KCSM overall balance, costs and changes

[Sub_Zero]

Before the intervention of this mod and massive migration of players a lot of things used to have different costs. Let's look at the changes in costs:
Eternal war - 75/20, now - 60/15
Mark of Khorne - 75/20, now - 70/30
Mark of Tzeentch - unchanged
Champion - 80/15, now 75/25

I agree with the change to EW. For an upgrade that just boosts statistics by a little bit the power price of 15 is more than appropriate.

I disagree with the change to MoK. The problem with khorne marines is their underwhelmingly low damage to light infantry. That makes them an unviable upgrade against races with prevalent number of light infantry. For such a high cost you get a unit that cannot hope to win against cheaper units. This is so wrong. The cost of 20 power was more appropriate. If I ever want to have positive effect from this kind of CSM I always purchase all their upgrades so they have at least a little chance to win. They are usually slaughtered by melee orks, banshees or anything else more cheap. Their perfomance is good strictly vs armored targets. That makes this upgrade a one dimensional upgrade. Basically like a plasma gun. And I disagree with it. It shouldn't be the way it is.

Because when you purchase MoT you give a gigantic bonus to ranged damage against light infantry and maniacal boost in damage against HI/SHI. Why is the so called anti-armor upgrade performs so ungodly well against light targets? Should we nerf its damage against light infantry then? Go for that upgrade every time you need your CSM to become better as a ranged unit. There is no MU in which this upgrade would be unviable. There is a ton of MU where MoK is just too damn expensive for what it gives. For example, raptors deal more damage to light infantry, plus can jump, plus can take out a valuable model. Khorne marines being more expensive neither can jump, nor can take out a valuable model. All they can do is deal LESS damage to light infantry. It seems so wrong.

I disagree with the change to the cost of champion. Now when the champion grants an ability I can justify this cost. But what about champions that are purchased to lead a squad with a mark? Another model that can deal 18+ (with upgrade) ranged DPS. It is a ton of damage, no other ranged leader provides so much damage and I can fully justify this power cost of 25 power to add another model that have this high and versatile damage type. But there is a champion for wielders of Khorne mark. And he is insanely bad for this 25 power investment. He has a melta pistol and 75 more health. There is no reason whatsoever for him to have this cost. 15 power is the maximum I am ready to pay for what he gives.

For better understanding I will formulate it shorter.
1) Mark of Khorne underperforms against light infantry*
*Your argument that this upgrade is supposed to serve anti-armor role will be wrong because the other upgrade is supposedly an upgrade to deal with armor, yet it provides huge buffs in damage against light infantry
2) Mark of Khorne champion has a cost that doesn't correctly reflect his power, the cost should be lower

I see two solutions. One of them is to change the costs. The other one is to increase the performance against light infantry without increasing power against armored units.
1) Mark of khorne champion is now 75/15; mark of khorne is 75/20 (cost was just reverted to the previous value)
2) Mark of Khorne wielders now deal splash damage (not a scary number, don't you get scared) to light infantry. This doesn't affect HI at all and helps greatly against light infantry, 30 (36) DPS just doesn't cut it.

I do know that mark of Khorne was buffed here. But if khorne marines cannot single handedly defeat in raw DPS+health to DPS+health fight against ANY T1 unit then this upgrade shouldn't have such a cost that makes this unit the most expensive T1 melee unit, yet not the most effective at least in this kind of fights. Nobody seems to be concerned about tzeentch marines that with the all upgrades deal insane portions of damage to just everything. They slaughter T1-T2 units with ease. I am not even mentioning how patheticly badly khorne marines fare against bloodletters, genestealers and other T2 units.

[Caeltos]

Mark of Khorne Retail
Squad is equipped with chain axes and plasma pistols. Aspiring Champion gets the chain axe and a melta pistol. Squad gains +1 speed, +10% health and +10 melee skill. Squad is immobile while upgrading.

Mark of Khorne ELITE
Squad is equipped with chain axes and plasma pistols. Aspiring Champion gets the chain axe and a melta pistol. Squad gains +1 speed, +20% health, charge range of 12, and +10 melee skill. Squads upgraded to Mark of Khorne receive +1 hp/s health regeneration when in combat. Squad is immobile while upgrading.

[Crewfinity]

MoK marines are crazy good vs light infantry squads like dire avengers, guardsmen, shootas, etc.

you may not be using them efficiently, as they do require much more finesse than do mark of Tzeentch marines, but rest assured that they are absolutely lethal.

t2 counter melee units will still usually win in fights (bloodletters, genes), but they're awesome at chasing transports, light infantry squads, and can murder tacs if given the chance.

75/25 is pretty standard for a squad leader, especially one that provides light AV. changing this to 15 power would be crazy.

MoK would probably be okay at 25 power but honestly i think its completely fine as it is right now. KMarines are a fantastic unit and i love using them. You made a lot of claims there that are absolutely untrue unless you're trying to run them right into a setup team or something.

[Black Relic]

Use KCSM as counter initiation too. You will be happy if you did. KCSM aren't supposed to fight dedicated melee squads unless they are ridiculously weakened. And If they are that's an automatic wipe on them due to their speed.

KCSM arent a goto choice like TCSM can be. But when the time is right to get KCSM they wreak faces literally.

[Sub_Zero]

Mark of Khorne Retail
Squad is equipped with chain axes and plasma pistols. Aspiring Champion gets the chain axe and a melta pistol. Squad gains +1 speed, +10% health and +10 melee skill. Squad is immobile while upgrading.

Mark of Khorne ELITE
Squad is equipped with chain axes and plasma pistols. Aspiring Champion gets the chain axe and a melta pistol. Squad gains +1 speed, +20% health, charge range of 12, and +10 melee skill. Squads upgraded to Mark of Khorne receive +1 hp/s health regeneration when in combat. Squad is immobile while upgrading.

And here are my words...

I do know that mark of Khorne was buffed here.

And the funny thing is that this buff occured only when people like me started discussing how bad kmarines are And the only change is weak health regeneration and a slight health buff. It doesn't cut it. There has to be another direction for buffing. I explained it in my first post. They did not need that increased durability. They need to perform better against light infantry.

Use KCSM as counter initiation too. You will be happy if you did.

you may not be using them efficiently

2600 hours, ready to roflstomp your faces, experts

Your justifications seem pathetic.

75/25 is pretty standard for a squad leader, especially one that provides light AV. changing this to 15 power would be crazy.

His AV is super light. It is a fucking pistol goddamit... He is no different than normal models. 75 more health and that pistol. The fuck I pay this 25 power for? For a standard khorne marine who has 75 more health and a different sidearm? Don't be ridiculous!

You made a lot of claims there that are absolutely untrue unless you're trying to run them right into a setup team or something.

Contest my points and prove them wrong. For now you are a BSer here.

KCSM aren't supposed to fight dedicated melee squads unless they are ridiculously weakened.

Where did BS come from? Retarded to say that about a unit with one purpose and whose cost is insanely high. They are supposed to smack shit in melee and wreck shit. No matter DEDICATED or NOT DEDICATED. They are supposed to fuck shit that has lower costs and are of the same tier. Period. Because other than that they can't do any other shit. They don't bash gens fast. They don't suppress. They don't jump. They don't worship. They don't repair. THEY DON'T AND THEY DON'T. They are a unit with no utility rather than SUPER LIGHT AV and decent speed (nothing impressive! don't you make that as their main strength as some do) for a slow race. THEY ARE THAT DEDICATED MELEE SQUAD. THEY ARE MORE DEDICATED TO SMACKING SHIT THAN ANYTHING ELSE. They should be as strong against melee as tzeentch marines are strong against ranged. PERIOD. Or they need a lower cost.

[Caeltos]

Okay, calm down now.

The game is balanced around being rock, paper & scissor unit variants. You can't have a unit that is rock, paper & scissor in terms of effectiveness in melee- combat. Khorne Marines needs to have both strengths, and weaknesses. Their strength comes from their inherit speed, and they're more capable of being independant then say a Bloodletter squad, who relies more on the backup of the Heretic worship support for their sustain potential.

Do not underesimtate the strength of their ranged weaponry. They do apply sufficient pressure to push units away from the field, whereas regular dedicated-melee units are absolutely dogshit at those types of pressure potential. Those units for an ex, are as follows - Banshees, Slugga Boyz.

You can't say that their speed is not a positive aspect to apply to a faction that is relatively slow either, that's just absurd. That's the arguement for when people are debatting Wraithguards, is that the fact - they are slow- when rest of the faction is relatively fast on their feet. So on longer-distance maps, they are more effective at reaching points, and being able to contest and re-apply pressure and recap the territory. Tzeentch Marines will slowly but surely waddle their way to that map and eventually start peeling, but again - seconds matter, so that speed is important.

A unit doesn't require abilities to neccassarily add utility, as evidently provided by units such as scouts. (Which have a fast speed), which provides you with map control, kiting potential and peel potential, for a low cost of 210. Now, Khorne Marines may not have the range of scouts, but they do have their health to beef them up for taking fights, which reflects abit of the arrogance and thematical design of Chaos Marines to more up-in your face, compared to Space Marines who are more on the defensive nature, and looking for an opportunity to strike.

[Sub_Zero]

Do not underesimtate the strength of their ranged weaponry.

I don't and never had. I answered to the guy who said of it as light AV. Light AV is a psycannon on a strike squad. Pistols are very light AV because you have to constantly chase the vehicle and can't apply this av damage from afar. And the overall damage isn't that great to call it light av. And thanks for mentioning that, I forgot to add it in my initial post. That will help me prove my point that they are bad against light infantry. Their pistols deal plasma damage Plasma damage is nothing against light infantry, isn't it? Can we at least agree to change their pistols to do inferno damage? So they can at least damage light infantry upon chasing it.

You can't say that their speed is not a positive aspect to apply to a faction that is relatively slow either, that's just absurd.

And I never had. I just wanted to caution people from calling it their main strength, not from mentioning it as one of the strengths.Their main strength is in their weapons. +1 speed is nothing without those weapons. Those weapons are something without that +1 speed. Weapons > speed, that means when we talk about them we should focus on their main parameter and which is broken against light infantry.

Once again I want to remind that their pistols deal decreased damage to light infantry and their axes deal the damage of raptors. Raptors and KCSM are different units. One is to jump and tie up. The other one is to fight. When they have the same damage (less damage when champions for both squads are present) against light infantry then something tells me it is very wrong. I do know that when they get EW their damage becomes greater (4x36 vs 3x30+45) but they still do low damage to light infantry considering their different role. Have a look at sheer fact - 144 damage to light infantry from a melee special vs 135 damage to light infantry from a jump squad. My proposition is to add to that low 144 damage splash damage and make their pistols useful against light infantry. Do you not agree with that? Do you not see an issue with that?

[Dark Riku]

I wasn't going to bother with this one since it just looks like is a L2P issue.
You're not taking into consideration many things, like their economical cost: it's a T1, power free, ranged unit that you can upgrade later on depending on your needs. Raptors have different uses, the comparison is way off.

2600 hours, ready to roflstomp your faces, experts

Bring it on then.

[Crewfinity]

So many things....

First of all they do power melee damage while raptors deal regular melee. So they do more damage to HI, SHI, and commanders. They're also quite fast so they're awesome at getting retreat kills, especially when ambushing from Sorcerer worship or with the speed boost from CL worship. They are also suprisingly tanky with the battle regen combined with pc worship.

Their increased speed and HI durability means that they take very little damage from most light infantry squads on approach, and their high damage and awesome specials will shred most LI squads very quickly. They're particularly effective vs imperial guard, as they counter essentially the entire T2 roster.

The leader has a power axe and a melta pistol and good stats. You complain that he only has 75 more health than a normal CSM model as if that's a bad thing. That's a pretty damn good stat line imo, and having that squad leader for cheaper than 25 power would be absurd. Look at the MoT aspiring champion, he has the same issue but he doesn't even have any different weapons than the rest of the squad. Having that melta pistol can be invaluable, and it is indeed light AV. Unlike the strike squad psycannon, his pistol can be fired on the move. Combined with the fast speed and overall chaos AV, I've had many excellent results chasing down those transports that can give chaos so much trouble usually. Ofc they're not going to counter a walker, but having that AV potential gives them an massive increase in independence compared to MoT csm. They can counter pretty much any unit 1v1, which combined with their speed means they are excellent map control units and excel at forcing squads off the periphery of the map, flanking and isolating units, and generally giving you the initiative. Like Caeltos mentioned, in that they are similar to scouts in making the opponent react to you, which can be invaluable in setting the pace and tone of the game.

They will also often have levels before upgrading, if you are using your CSM effectively in T1. they get exponentially better with levels, as it increases their durability and their special attacks are absolutely devastating. Leveled KCSM will shred most commanders, and will run train on any isolated ranged squad. Trying to compare them to raptors and saying that makes them bad vs LI seems very fallacious, since raptors counter light infantry incredibly hard. Also how on earth can you call 144 power melee dps low?! That's on part with banshees with Exarch, but with heavy armor and more health over fewer models.


I don't really know what else to say to you that hasn't been mentioned by caeltos, his post was pretty excellent. Try looking at some of Tex's replays with chaos, I know he is quite partial to KCSM use. I get them almost every game vs IG and don't regret it, I'll try to find some replays in my vault where they were particularly effective. Rest assured they need no cost decrease.

[Raven]

Even dedicated front-line units like MoK CSMs will go down to enough focused fire from anything, so if you're having trouble with MoK against light infantry, I would suggest coordinating their charge with something like a Raptor jump (that sweet suppression), a Doombolt volley, or something of the sort. You could also get some melee Heretics to screen damage and suppress with Doomblast (good versus power-melee units like Banshees).

[Tex]

This is entirely the case of L2P and also internal competition/meta.

MoK have a very distinct and highlighted role to play. If you don't know what it is, I suggest you do some digging in the forums. They are certainly not a universal purchase, but neither are TCSM as you say they are. Losing the slaughter ability is a HUGE blow against races like orks and eldar.

[Black Relic]

Assault Marines with their serg cost more than KCSM. In the contexts of what you said about KCSM costing so much they should take on dedicated melee, then ASM should take on Dedicated Melee easier than KCSM. But they don't even with Merciless strike thrown into the mix. Besides KCSM rekt ASM. They own Raptors and can do a number on stormboyz (unless wb buffs). They are a good counter initiation unit period. And as said before they can flank and tie up ranged squad and actually kill models. They can kill a tank you plague marine are around. They can chase a transport better than any unit in the game due to their increased speed. You may think their light AV isn't something to look at but that shit adds up, rear armor or not.

ASM are for initiation and setting up a vehicle kill with melta bomb unless its thrown on a low hp vehicle that shouldn't be around in the first place.

If chaos gets to save 30 power then they can nearly afford a plague Marine squad. Now Transports, and tanks are threatened a lot without too much investment. They would become a brain dead choice if you needed something vs HI and you'd never get bloodletter unless you have already decided on TCSM. Doubling up on KCSM is extremely difficult to deal with and this buff would make the already good chaos t2 even better and possibly OP.

Splash damage on KCSM would be OP period. The bleed range infantry fast already (even HI range infantry). Adding any amount of splash damage (even if its just 1 damage) to units that attack quickly like they do would be absurd.

TCSM have to be baby sat. KCSM don't need that treatment. Besides their speed also helps against back capping units. They help retain map control.

The only thing I could ever ask for on KCSM is a price reduction to the AC after he dies. Anything else is not necessary.

[Nurland]

2600 hours, ready to roflstomp your faces, experts

Your justifications seem pathetic.

Time to calm down a bit maybe? That is hardly very constructive. They have no real way of knowing the amount of time you have played this game. And since you started a thread stating that units that are widely considered pretty strong by the more experienced players, it might pop into one's head that you might not be using the squad correct.

PS. I know players with 1-3k hours that don't use their squads the "correct" way.

[Asmon]

PS. I know players with 1-3k hours that don't use their squads the "correct" way.

Precisely. Nurland comes to mind =)

Btw nothing about the inherent +15% chance to trigger a special with khorne axes? So sad.

[Nurland]

Asmon why you so mean? (

[Crewfinity]

Btw nothing about the inherent +15% chance to trigger a special with khorne axes? So sad.

Hooooly shit that's a thing?! I always thought they seemed to get special attacks like no other, and they have such an awesome special attack.

dat shit cray 0_o

[Lulgrim]

pathetic.
fucking
The fuck
ridiculous!
BS
Retarded
DEDICATED or NOT DEDICATED
fuck shit
THEY DON'T AND THEY DON'T
SUPER LIGHT AV
THEY ARE THAT DEDICATED MELEE SQUAD. THEY ARE MORE DEDICATED TO SMACKING SHIT THAN ANYTHING ELSE
PERIOD

So even though I don't follow the forum that closely any more my brain kind of started outlining a pattern here and a suspicion arose, and I checked and:

Other users posting from this IP
Sub_Zero

[Crewfinity]

0_o

The plot thickens

[PhatE]

So even though I don't follow the forum that closely any more my brain kind of started outlining a pattern here and a suspicion arose, and I checked and:

Other users posting from this IP
Sub_Zero

haha. How hard is it to find an anonymous proxy these days.

[Adeptus Noobus]

So even though I don't follow the forum that closely any more my brain kind of started outlining a pattern here and a suspicion arose, and I checked and:

Other users posting from this IP
Sub_Zero

CUT OFF ONE HEAD AND TWO MORE SHALL GROW IN ITS PLACE!

[Tex]

LOL!!!

[Atlas]

So even though I don't follow the forum that closely any more my brain kind of started outlining a pattern here and a suspicion arose, and I checked and:

Other users posting from this IP
Sub_Zero

Really nice catch. I'm a little late to the party on this one, but I think a warning is in order.

[Cyris]

Best thread of 2016 here folks.

[BbBoS]

Is there still going to be a grudge match though

[Nurland]

He has had plenty of warnings that seemed to do little. Banned the IP as well this time.

[Forestradio]

He has had plenty of warnings that seemed to do little. Banned the IP as well this time.

☐ Not REKT ☑ REKT ☑ REKTangle ☑ SHREKT ☑ REKT-it Ralph ☑ Total REKTall ☑ The Lord of the REKT ☑ The Usual SusREKTs ☑ North by NorthREKT ☑ REKT to the Future ☑ Once Upon a Time in the REKT ☑ The Good, the Bad, and the REKT ☑ REKTus Caesar ☑ LawREKT of Arabia ☑ Tyrannosaurus REKT ☑ eREKTile dysfunction

[Tranca]

Mark of Khorne Retail

2600 hours, ready to roflstomp your faces, experts

Your justifications seem pathetic.

I don't know how to quote! I don't care!

GRUDGE MATCH GRUDGE MATCH GRUDGE MATCH

I call shotgun on an obs spot!

[Toilailee]

Well that was silly.

[CSM Emperor]

they need splash damage good idea as they have axes that hack around.

[CSM Emperor]

Mark of Khorne wielders now deal splash damage (not a scary number, don't you get scared) to light infantry. This doesn't affect HI at all and helps greatly against light infantry, 30 (36) DPS just doesn't cut it.

i totally agree on splash dps adding.