Are Imperial Guard Stromtroopers inflexible?

[MathiasCZR01]

Hello, there my name is Mathias, I’ am a relatively new player in the DoW2 Elite Community. I have played for awhile in the community and in the original DoW2 retribution multiplayer. I am decent but I’m not as good as some of the more dedicated players are out in the community.

Today I wanted to bring to attention my thoughts and opinions on a specific unit in the game that may need some changes, the Imperial Guard Teir 2 Stormtroopers. In the original Retribution game I used to employ the stormtroopers a lot in multiplayer games and had a lot of fun with them, but in this modded game they’re a bit…lackluster. I’ve tried to play stormtroopers in several ways and I really haven’t had a whole lot of success with them. Problem with the Storms is that their just too situational and not really flexible; you’d need an opponent to fight and engage you from long range distances if the stormtroopers are to have an advantage or value. Or you would need your opponent to have poor mirco and easily able to be distracted in order for stormtroopers to ambush the enemy and do some actual damage. In addition I tend to rarely see Imperial Guard players actually actively use stormtroopers, if at all! Why is this so?

So here are my disputes with the current conditions of the stormtroopers.
The Stormtroopers are really EXPENSIVE costing 400 requisition for a single squad that you get at your HQ is a lot to ask for. And also factor in that you’re probably going to upgrade the squad with something like Assault kits which is a further 75 requisition, which is 475 investment just for an anti-infantry squad. YES I do know that the advantage in this is that you don’t have to spend any energy to get or upgrade the squad. But honestly I still think that it’s just too much and not worth the risking spending it when I have other choices to pick from that are more favorable. I do have to say that the damage output of these guys is good but just the cost for it needs to be adjusted, think about it, for 475 I could make a full Gen farm and get something much more useful out of that then get a single squad of stormtroopers.

I’d maybe perhaps settle for small cost decrease in requisition and add in some amount of gen energy in order to spend and obtain the stormtroopers that would at least make them a more reasonable unit to purchase and invest in at Teir 2.

Another problem that I tend to keep facing is that the total energy held by the stormtroopers and their energy consumption when using their abilities is rather poor. For the stormtroopers to successfully cloak themselves they tend to take around 5-10 seconds to fully camo the squad but by that time when I try to infiltrate them in-between the enemy lines my opponent will spot them right before they disappear and he/she will just simply pullback and my element of surprise is ruined (you would have to somehow time it perfectly in order to achieve a surprise) And remember during that time between trying to cloak and becoming cloaked they are consuming a lot of energy just to get to that point. And so in many situations I’ve found myself trying to rush the enemy with cloaked stormtroopers in order to get in close and throw a surprise grenade or even a melta-bomb on a vehicle. But only to find out that I have 45-50 energy and I can’t throw anything, so my ventures where fruitless. I would like to maybe see some changes in the troopers as to make them more viable to harass, gen bash and ambush the enemy. Make them able to conduct solo ops.

As to how to maybe address this I’m not really sure because I don’t want to throw everything out of balance for another faction. But perhaps increase the total energy holdings of the Storms from 100 to 120. Or maybe decrease the cost amount of using a grenade or melta-bomb less than 60? Or even make the stormtroopers able to camo themselves much faster than before once they disengage from combat.

Please give me your input, perhaps other things about the stormtroopers that should be addressed that I haven’t touched upon. Or tell me why certain changes shouldn’t be implemented for the Stormtroopers.

[Atlas]

Oddly, my issues with STs are in entirely different areas.

My prob with STs economy wise is actually their bleed, not their upfront squad cost. 400/0 is definitely on the cheaper end of t2 squads. They just cost quite a chunk of change for each stromtrooper model to reinforce. Making them cost power to buy the squad infers that it will cost power to reinforce them. To this I say no thanks.

I actually think melta storms are in a worse position than AKST are. I'm really struggling to find a use for them. On top of the aforementioned bleed issues, they are far too squishy and short ranged to really pose the kind of av threat that they are supposed to give. Barring a complete and utter flank of the opponent, melta storms are just going to get destroyed if something so much as breathes on them and they're basically worthless in melee. I don't really know what to suggest for them, but they need some kind of help.

[Kvn]

Hello. I'm mainly an Eldar player myself, but I do have IG as a close second, so I thought I'd offer up my own personal experience.

I suppose to begin with, I'm a little confused that you find the retail version of Stormtroopers better than their Elite Mod counterparts. I don't recall them getting nerfed in any of the recent patches (their dps might have been altered at some point, but don't quote me on that) and, in fact, I'm pretty sure they mainly received buffs. In the retail game, the assault kit had a weird mechanic where it would actually increase the amount of damage that Stormtroopers took, making them more vulnerable to return fire. This, I believe, was removed in the Elite Mod.

As for who uses them, well pretty much everyone who plays IG a lot. I make heavy use of them because they make for such a strong AV unit, or can provide massive amounts of long-ranged anti infantry fire when facing fragile units such as Eldar and Orks (and because they just look awesome). I know that Bibotot liked to use 2x Storms with assault kit and the Lord General Sniper Rifle to make a terrifying anti-infantry blob of doom, but I haven't played all that much recently so I'm not sure if he still runs that or not.

For their flexibility, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're getting at. They're one of the more flexible units in the game given that they can either function as hard-av or hard-ai with a relatively inexpensive upgrade, can infiltrate for offensive or defensive maneuvering, and have grenades that support their respective roles. You can buy them in either situation, and they serve their respective roles very, very effectively. Even when a vehicle is destroyed, the av-troopers can still be super effective gen-bashers since they have melta guns and the ability to infiltrate, keeping them more relevent than something like a lascannon which usually loses a lot of utility when the vehicle is gone.

Even when they're not necessarily needed, Storms are what I consider a 'rec-dump' unit. If you have an excess of rec that you can't, or don't want, to spend on extra gens, you can buy a squad of them. They balance out your eco while providing a strong, adaptable unit that can compliment most build orders. The 400 rec price tag isn't all that much considering what else in the game costs that much, and the lack of a power-attachment is a godsend with the rest of IG t2 and onwards being pretty power intensive. They can't coast through on rec alone all game the way they can in t1 after all.

They aren't an auto-buy unit, certainly, but I don't think that they should be. They already offer a lot of firepower for a pretty cost-effective price tag. As for the energy concerns, they have the same energy reserves as almost every other unit in the game. Balancing out their infiltration with grenade requirements is a skill that you'll get used to after a little while. It usually isn't a serious concern unless you keep them stealthed all the time. If they were to have more energy, then they'd be somewhat too strong out of the gate in my opinion since it would be much easier for them to sneak up on a vehicle before the opponent even knew you bought them, securing a kill with little chance for counter play.

That's how I see it anyway. To me, they're an awesome unit. Not a bread-and-butter force like your Guardsmen and Sentinel, but an invaluable addition to your arsenal if the situation allows it. I don't think they're inflexible, and buffing them might be a bit much all things considered.

[Nurland]

Iirc AKST got their range bonus reduced from 40% extra range to 20% in Elite. Still they got the grenade with a larger than usual cast radius. Infiltrated AKST + nades are a pain even with decent micro in 1v1

[Tex]

I have not experienced any of the problems you listed.

If you skim through some casts or whatever, you can see that when I play IG, I use stormtroopers (and catachans and ogryns) in almost every match.

ST's are quite flexible, you just have to transition with them properly, and here is what I mean: Buying ST's pre emptively can be a great way to transition into T3 without needing an additional expenditure. They provide additional firepower to your forces, and can be used for scouting and back capping. Based on the fact that you have storm troopers and haven't hidden it, your opponent is by default going to take that into consideration, and may avoid buying a vehicle based on this information alone.
Thus, retaining the option to upgrade into AV with your storm troopers provides great transition flexibility in that your opponent can now see a potential counter to his next purchase before even purchasing it.

I could go on and on about the tactical merits of ST's, especially AKST's, but its better that you watch and learn rather than read some words.

In terms of melta ST's, I think everyone needs to apply alot more cunning and synergy when using them. In order to save energy and pull off your flank properly, here are some things you can do:
1) With LG, use "go go go" on your cloaked ST's so they can get into position very quickly
2) With Inq, use "silently" on your ST's so they don't need to use their own energy pool to become invisible. Silently also causes them to be invisible immediately.
3) With LC, use "inspire determination" to make the ST's run ultra fast while they are cloaked. They will also be doing 180% of normal damage.

[MathiasCZR01]

I didn’t talk about the AV upgrades for the Stormtroopers because I know for a fact that their actually pretty good at what they do. Always fun to sneak up on the enemy vehicles while it’s repairing or even a manticore and just destroying it or even sneaking behind and gen bashing (if you don’t get caught that is) So they don’t really need any changes in that area. My focus was particularly on the stormtroopers being used for anti-infantry duty; cause it would be easier to simply upgrade your already veteran guardsmen with plasma-guns (if they survive to that point) and stormtroopers would seem to be kinda phased out by much more cheaper and expendable infantry. In addition my main hero is the Commissar Lord, so I haven’t really found any good ways to synergize the two units together besides using the Determination ability and Lead by Example with the power sword upgrade. I know Lord General works perfectly with these guys but vise visa not really.

Anyway it seems like to me that I maybe the problem in my ignorance of how to properly use them, and it also looks like that this conversation is shifting more over to the strategy discussion side, I think I’ll end this thread and perhaps start a new one over there.

[Oddnerd]

In 3v3 the assault kit stormtroopers are usually not worth it. Better to get the more durable GM squad with their mixed piercing/plasma damage output.

I don't play a lot of 1v1 or 2v2, but in those modes I imagine they could be quite useful. There are a lot more 1 unit skirmishes going on as people try to maintain map control, and a unit like ST that have infiltrate, long range, high burst DPS, and a grenade, would be great for roaming the map and capping/de-capping.

[bibotot]

I don't see much problem with Stormtroopers nowadays. I have a lot of successes playing them. I, however, agree that Meltaguns are a waste and you are better off with Autocannon/Lascannon or rushing to tier 3 to get a Leman Russ.

[Skyward Sorceror]

Well that is true, Autocannon/Lascannon is MUCH better at AV then AV kit STs.. HOWEVER AV STs aaaare good for mobile AV. It's mainly a question of needs, however I don't see much need in a team game if you intend to simply hold a Vic point, due to the fact they will serve a stationary role and as such should be delegated to HWTs.

[BloatedChamp]

I am still struggling TO distinguish Stormtroopers vs Karskin.

Is each unit situational, or is Karskin just better than stormtroopers in general?

Are Karskin meant to be able to do it all? where as ST's only for specific counters.

When do you build one over the other?

Any tip helps, thanks.

[Oddnerd]

I am still struggling TO distinguish Stormtroopers vs Karskin.

Is each unit situational, or is Karskin just better than stormtroopers in general?

Are Karskin meant to be able to do it all? where as ST's only for specific counters.

When do you build one over the other?

Any tip helps, thanks.

A few things:
1 - Kasrkin have much more HP per model (95), making them more durable in straight-up firefights, compared with stormtroopers who are highly bleed prone.

2 - Stormtroopers have infiltrate, while Kasrkins do not.

3 - Their upgrades allow them to fill different niches.


Basically, I only use kasrkin when its late game and I am facing a lot of HI/SHI such as terminators or nobs. The kasrkins with the plasma gun upgrades can do respectable damage against late game infantry units. As well, the Kasrkin grenade launcher, with its weapon knockback, is excellent for controlling enemy infantry by consistently disrupting them (something that IG lack in earlier tiers). Stormtroopers, by comparison, are not very good in a straight-up fight, and are more of a harassment unit. If you get their assault kit, you can use them in the same way other races would use sniper units, keeping them away from the front lines and harassing the enemy's infantry from a long distance. Also, if you infiltrate them, you can use their assault kit frag grenades in the same way a SM would with his scouts (Kasrkins also have frags, but no infiltration). Both kasrkins and stormtroopers can get meltaguns, but because stormtroopers have infiltrate and the ability to snare vehicles with a meltabomb, they are superior at hunting down support vehicles like manticores/whirwinds/fire prisms... etc, which tend to be kept away from the front lines. Kasrkins have their krak grenades, but these do not snare vehicles, and do not stick to the vehicle, meaning you can miss with them.

Overall, Karskins are more efficient at frontline combat, with more versatile upgrades for killing or controlling enemy infantry, and the ability to survive more damage than stormtroopers. Stormtroopers, on the other hand, are more of a support unit, used to harass enemy infantry or to hunt down and disable enemy light vehicles.

[Lag]

If you are in t3 and you need firepower - get Kasrkins. They have a lot more staying power (don't lose models as easy as storms) and have higher DPS afaik. Same burst, more versatility with the melta bomb etc. If you need av in t3 - get a Lascannon. Really, Storms are a very t2 unit.

[Psycho]

Per model, Stormtroopers with AK have more dps than Kasrkin, but with the sergeant upgrade Kasrkin have a little bit more dps than AK SSs, though with 6 more upkeep and 3 more population. Without the sergeant upgrade Kasrkin have 30,6 upkeep (6,12 x 5) while SSs have 30,8001 (6,16002 x 5).

Upgraded Stormtroopers/Kasrkin with Sergeant and NO weapon upgrades
Hitpoints = 900 (180 per model) level 1, 1370 (274) level 4 / 1375 (275) level 1, 2090 (418) level 4
Armor type = infantry / heavy_infantry
Cost = 475 req / 505 req 75 power
Upkeep = 30,8001 (6,16002 x 5) / 36,72 (6,12 x 5)
DPS = 75 (15 x 5, assault kit) or 61,75 (12,35 x 5, melta, range 20 which is smaller than even guardsmen flamers) / 81,03 (12.94 x 5 + 16.33)
Burst damage = 300 (30 x burst duration of 2 x 5 models) or 150 (melta) / 259 ([22 * 2 * 5] + [19,6 * 2])
Karskin have a reload frequency of 4-6 while stormtroopers have 1-1, so unlike stormtroopers they wont immediately start reloading but in fact will keep shooting bursts like those fast enough to level out the dps.
Reinforce = 40 req / 43 req 6 power
Population = 15 / 18
Melee damage = All models do 4 per hit/dps, but the kasrkin sergeant does 26,15 per hit/dps

Kasrkin can also get plasma guns and grenade launchers (that even have knockback!), and have a grenade (krak) option against vehicles. Seeing this, I don't see any reasons to get stormtroopers over kasrkin unless you either really need that infiltration or desperately need power for something else, assuming the enemy doesn't have so much AV that it makes a vehicle purchase suicidal, in which case the kasrkin shines due to being the infantry option for tier 3. Goes without saying that AV weapons with less range than flamers are not necessarily the safest AV option, so I'm not going to consider SSs for their AV potential in this calculation.

Just as another comparison, a fully upgraded guardsman squad with plasma guns costs 45 power. Stormtroopers are the option for a no power unit.

[saltychipmunk]

Per model, Stormtroopers with AK have more dps than Kasrkin, but with the sergeant upgrade Kasrkin have a little bit more dps than AK SSs, though with 6 more upkeep and 3 more population. Without the sergeant upgrade Kasrkin have 30,6 upkeep (6,12 x 5) while SSs have 30,8001 (6,16002 x 5).

Upgraded Stormtroopers/Kasrkin with Sergeant and NO weapon upgrades
Hitpoints = 900 (180 per model) level 1, 1370 (274) level 4 / 1375 (275) level 1, 2090 (418) level 4
Armor type = infantry / heavy_infantry
Cost = 475 req / 505 req 75 power
Upkeep = 30,8001 (6,16002 x 5) / 36,72 (6,12 x 5)
DPS = 75 (15 x 5, assault kit) or 61,75 (12,35 x 5, melta, range 20 which is smaller than even guardsmen flamers) / 81,03 (12.94 x 5 + 16.33)
Burst damage = 300 (30 x burst duration of 2 x 5 models) or 150 (melta) / 259 ([22 * 2 * 5] + [19,6 * 2])
Karskin have a reload frequency of 4-6 while stormtroopers have 1-1, so unlike stormtroopers they wont immediately start reloading but in fact will keep shooting bursts like those fast enough to level out the dps.
Reinforce = 40 req / 43 req 6 power
Population = 15 / 18
Melee damage = All models do 4 per hit/dps, but the kasrkin sergeant does 26,15 per hit/dps

Kasrkin can also get plasma guns and grenade launchers (that even have knockback!), and have a grenade (krak) option against vehicles. Seeing this, I don't see any reasons to get stormtroopers over kasrkin unless you either really need that infiltration or desperately need power for something else, assuming the enemy doesn't have so much AV that it makes a vehicle purchase suicidal, in which case the kasrkin shines due to being the infantry option for tier 3. Goes without saying that AV weapons with less range than flamers are not necessarily the safest AV option, so I'm not going to consider SSs for their AV potential in this calculation.

Just as another comparison, a fully upgraded guardsman squad with plasma guns costs 45 power. Stormtroopers are the option for a no power unit.

what about the fact that kasrkin are in t3 and have a 60 power investment? comparing a t3 unit to a t2 unit as if they are in the same tier is silly anyway. of course you get the t3 unit. if game balance is even half good the higher tech unit will be the more efficient buy provided you dont count that rather large teching cost.

but in terms of utility storm troopers are actually a much more interesting unit. people underestimate just how useful a power free stealth unit with extra range , high damage and a grenade is. you can easily rush to t3 on the backs of an AK stormtrooper squad so long as your sentinel is still alive and able to equip av or you have some other av options hanging around....

plus you probably will have a level or two on the storm troopers too.

[Psycho]

what about the fact that kasrkin are in t3 and have a 60 power investment?

I already mentioned in the second to last paragraph that you'd want to pick stormtroopers if you want a power-free selection. If power isn't your concern (IE already in T3 or having the advantage enough in T2 to wait T3 out and then invest without the pressing need to get a unit or upgrade out) and you don't want a vehicle for whatever reason, kasrkin are the choice. Otherwise, as you said, stormtroopers should be taken. Far more with inquisitor assuming you aren't saving up the red for something else, since they'd cost only 250, and are called in cloaked at any point of the map you have vision. I know I've used them numerous times popping them right behind a suppression team's arc of fire and cover.

[Cyris]

If power isn't your concern (IE already in T3 or having the advantage enough in T2 to wait T3 out and then invest without the pressing need to get a unit or upgrade out) and you don't want a vehicle for whatever reason, kasrkin are the choice.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on when it's right to buy Kasrkins - almost never. Though with even more caveats:
1- You have enough surviving GM's to repair the 2 Russ you intend on making (bunkers alleviate this)
2- You won't need extra AV (I'm a bit confused why they lost meltas in this patch, giving me even less situations where they are desirable?)
3- (maybe) You are facing enough swarmy light infantry for the nade launchers to do work on (the passive knockback is simply amazing)

The power cost is a real big deal to me. By getting a low power ST (and I think this thread has already thoroughly explained the significant strengths of ST) or GM instead of a kasrkin in T3, it will usually mean the next time you have enough req you will have the power to get the only thing you really want late game: more Russ! ST costing ONLY req is such a big deal, and being able to stealth around while unloading their long range "snipe" weaponry is super helpful.


Even buying them for plasma damage I don't like much. I feel like getting late game GM squads, skipping sarge and going right for the commissar, will get you a more versatile and efficient plasma damage source. Lemme break down some numbers for myself and you all, and see if I'm right nor not!

GM + Commi + Plasma
cost - 210 + 85/20 + 90/25 = 385/45 - 9 pop
hp - 940
dps - 23 pierce, 25 plasma
special: 2:1 reinforce, retreat break, repair, sarge if desired

Kasrkins + Plasma
cost: 425/60 + 90/30 = 515/90 - 15 pop
hp - 1200
dps - 39 pierce, 33 plasma
special: HI, nades (2x!), sarge if desired, 45 range on piercing damage (NOT plasma), .5 bonus speed

Ok, stacking those two up against each other was informative to me. What kind of conclusions can I draw? The plasma damage to req cost ratio is the same for both (.06 plasma damage per req) which is interesting. Skipping Commi makes the GM even more efficient, and adding the sarge to both keeps things around the same. Kasrkins will bleed less but hurt a lot more if they do (duh) and have a lot of advantages (speed, range, nades) while GM are all about the efficiency and synergy. The power cost differential in initial investment and reinforcement is still the part that makes me nervous of the Kasrkins unless I've hit the "gates only by req" portion of the game. But even then, the GM will leave you with 130 extra req and lower upkeep? But since the plasma damage pretty much is equivalent for costs across the two, that part of it is almost a non-issue for comparing them.

I feel it comes down to how well you are going to utilize the grenades and potential Sarge upgrade (capping and less suppression) vs the efficiency and repair of the GM. Also, do you think that in the compositions that you and your opponent have, are Kasrkins or GM going to bleed less and be able to fire their weaponry unmoletsed?

[Soberson]

Are Kasrkins the answer to Nob spam? Or should I go for ST?

[HARRYY]

If power isn't your concern (IE already in T3 or having the advantage enough in T2 to wait T3 out and then invest without the pressing need to get a unit or upgrade out) and you don't want a vehicle for whatever reason, kasrkin are the choice.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on when it's right to buy Kasrkins - almost never. Though with even more caveats:
1- You have enough surviving GM's to repair the 2 Russ you intend on making (bunkers alleviate this)
2- You won't need extra AV (I'm a bit confused why they lost meltas in this patch, giving me even less situations where they are desirable?)
3- (maybe) You are facing enough swarmy light infantry for the nade launchers to do work on (the passive knockback is simply amazing)

The power cost is a real big deal to me. By getting a low power ST (and I think this thread has already thoroughly explained the significant strengths of ST) or GM instead of a kasrkin in T3, it will usually mean the next time you have enough req you will have the power to get the only thing you really want late game: more Russ! ST costing ONLY req is such a big deal, and being able to stealth around while unloading their long range "snipe" weaponry is super helpful.


Even buying them for plasma damage I don't like much. I feel like getting late game GM squads, skipping sarge and going right for the commissar, will get you a more versatile and efficient plasma damage source. Lemme break down some numbers for myself and you all, and see if I'm right nor not!

GM + Commi + Plasma
cost - 210 + 85/20 + 90/25 = 385/45 - 9 pop
hp - 940
dps - 23 pierce, 25 plasma
special: 2:1 reinforce, retreat break, repair, sarge if desired

Kasrkins + Plasma
cost: 425/60 + 90/30 = 515/90 - 15 pop
hp - 1200
dps - 39 pierce, 33 plasma
special: HI, nades (2x!), sarge if desired, 45 range on piercing damage (NOT plasma), .5 bonus speed

Ok, stacking those two up against each other was informative to me. What kind of conclusions can I draw? The plasma damage to req cost ratio is the same for both (.06 plasma damage per req) which is interesting. Skipping Commi makes the GM even more efficient, and adding the sarge to both keeps things around the same. Kasrkins will bleed less but hurt a lot more if they do (duh) and have a lot of advantages (speed, range, nades) while GM are all about the efficiency and synergy. The power cost differential in initial investment and reinforcement is still the part that makes me nervous of the Kasrkins unless I've hit the "gates only by req" portion of the game. But even then, the GM will leave you with 130 extra req and lower upkeep? But since the plasma damage pretty much is equivalent for costs across the two, that part of it is almost a non-issue for comparing them.

I feel it comes down to how well you are going to utilize the grenades and potential Sarge upgrade (capping and less suppression) vs the efficiency and repair of the GM. Also, do you think that in the compositions that you and your opponent have, are Kasrkins or GM going to bleed less and be able to fire their weaponry unmoletsed?

thanks for the overview. very intersting numbers. I guess GM is the way to go for me. reatreat+execute and repair is so powerful to use in late-game. for lower cost and upkeep at the same ammount of damage. very interesing.

[Tex]

In my mind it proves that karskin got over-nerfed by a small amount. By all accounts they should be doing better damage per req than ST's, and with no doubt should they be doing better damage per req than GM's.

[Cyris]

In my mind it proves that karskin got over-nerfed by a small amount. By all accounts they should be doing better damage per req than ST's, and with no doubt should they be doing better damage per req than GM's.

FWIW, they do a chunk more piercing damage per req (and the piercing has bonus range and a good firing pattern), just not plasma. And of course all the caveats of you spending the req in different chunks, different numbers of squads, different abilities etc. This is but one analysis tool in the toolbox.

But in straight terms of pure plasma dps on the field firing optimally, GM are equal or better then Kars. Take from that what you will!

[Psycho]

FWIW, they do a chunk more piercing damage per req (and the piercing has bonus range and a good firing pattern), just not plasma. And of course all the caveats of you spending the req in different chunks, different numbers of squads, different abilities etc. This is but one analysis tool in the toolbox.

But in straight terms of pure plasma dps on the field firing optimally, GM are equal or better then Kars. Take from that what you will!

Yeah I'd have to agree with that. One game I ended up saving by going double kasrkin was against a chaos player fielding out multiple plague marines that just made vehicle play impossible added to the cramped space most fights took place in for vehicle pathfinding, so the piercing damage was what was needed there. The plasma damage was purely a bonus against the other heavy infantry units like CSM and havocs. I'd have gone for plasma guardsmen for their plasma, or AK stormtroopers for their infiltration if what he had was numerous blastmasters instead of plague marines. Being able to reinforce over 6 guardsmen models per kasrkin in a straight fight isn't something to laugh at.

It does bring another unrelated issue to the table when one has a chimera or an allied beacon next to the guardsmen, though. Usually when you have one single dead model the squad reinforces with the full cost, so you end up dumping the full requisition to reinforce that model as if it were a squad with no sergeant nor commissar. I guess engine limitations is at fault here due to the lack of ability to just have the upgrade lower the reinforce cost and reinforce time to achieve the same reinforce speed and cost.