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Codex wrote:I was perfectly happy to leave this point at that, until I saw your last post. And I'm so tired of this myth recurring in the population every so often that I want it now to be stamped out definitively.
First and foremost, read my post. I never said that you cannot compare their costs at all, I said that their costs do not bear a direct comparison. But I do warn against comparing units across tiers because in general people don't make a weighted judgement, they simply compare the face value and go "oh no the t1 unit so expensive! noooo"
I never once discounted your point that tac ml and plague marines fulfil a different role, but you keep needling my point about cross tier comparison. So let's consider the plague marines, and let's for the sake of argument compare them to tac missile launcher. Well, one of the biggest impact of plague marines is that they basically stop the chaos player going t3 for the foreseeable future. Do you see this happening with SM with missile launcher? No not really, SM often get a smooth transition into t3 even if they get a t2 unit. Generally the bleed is what stops the chaos player getting enough requisition to go t3.
So a casual observer may now be surprised that there is such a big difference between the economic impact of purchasing missile launcher, and getting plagues. But if anything it makes perfect sense that this happens. There is a reason why chaos terminators cost less than loyalist ones, because they are part of different economies, which means again they don't beat direct comparison in cost. And this is within the same tier, even.
Further, the fact that a unit is being carried over through transition, able to take advantage of a cheaper reinforce cost while keeping the utility of a power unit is amazing. In the case of tacticals, they are often with you from the beginning of a game, sometimes they'll be level 3 in t2, and most importantly they'll have been having game impact throughout the entire game. This means that their flexible upgrades should be a hefty investment and not perhaps be the most cost efficient upgrades ever, but this is a trade off against their versatility and flexibility.
This, compared to plague marines... Who come out at level 1, slow, but a decent combat unit... Hell yeah the plagues ought to be cheaper than tacs, and claiming that tac missile costs more than plagues is simply fallacious at best because it ignores all the compositional, economical and game impact considerations since forever.
Another factor to consider is that resources do not have a static value. Req is easy to come by early on in a game, and hard later on. Vice versa for power. This means that you could easily buy that tac squad in t1 for 450, but it would be harder in t3. In fact, it's probably straight up inefficient to do so.
To take another example, let's imagine that chaos is t3, and sees a tank. Let's say for the sake of argument that he feels like he wants melta Raptors from scratch or a predator. How does the melta raptor cost compared to the pred?
To build a fully upgraded raptor from scratch is unsurprisingly cost inefficient, and expensive, and very few people would do that unless they didn't have enough power for the predator. But one has to ask themselves why the raptor purchase is so inefficient on the face value-
A. The vanilla raptor purchase is much more efficient early on, similar to how tacs are gonna be inefficient to buy on t3. Again, this is because you're expected to get value and game impact out of them pre t3;
B. A significant part of the cost is in upgrades, which tend to be cost inefficient as a way to improving the capabilities of a squad or unit that has already made game impact, especially when they're a t1 unit.
Long story short, unless you're entirely desperate, I strongly recommended against buying a t1 unit and upgrading it first thing into a later tier, because it's expensive and inefficient.
To take the point back to kcsm, you're always talking about combat, and they perform like this or that in a fight. Well, I'm sorry, that's a really shallow way to look at a game. For someone who seems to care a lot about population as a resource, you don't really consider map control, opportunities, time, and economic streamlining and economic balance, which are far more important resources than simple population.
Kcsm don't bear direct comparison to purifiers at all. First and foremost, they belong to different armies and compositions. Kcsm are one of the big reasons why people can still get away with going 2 csm at high level 1v1, because their transition to t2 is so simple and efficient it's comparable to SM- buy a couple key upgrades, grab a t2 unit and you're dandy. But this itself is a trade off, that generally sacrifices t1 map pressure and vps for economic streamlining later. This usually means playing from behind for most of the game, and double tcsm doesn't provide the flexibility and often can be too greedy and immobile to pull off. Kcsm transition wonderfully enough and have enough speed to justify the greedy opener.
On the other hand, GK have no such issue, and nor do ogryns. If anything, kcsm are shock troops who make flanks and go capping, purifiers and ogryns are much more frontline and don't need to fulfil capping duties often at all, with so many other units in the composition to fulfil that duty.
So if we were actually using a proper definition of a unit by its role rather than a straight up fighter, kcsm and purifiers do not bear direct comparison.
To go back to the point of the transition of kcsm, apart from justifying a greedy chaos opener, and having a power free cheap reinforce at 75 req, they also bring the levels from t1 onwards, because they've been in the game for 5 mins already. Often when I'm going t2 I'm thinking to myself, which csm do I get my mok on, because sometimes I want it on my higher level csm. Why? Because the improved stats, especially melee skill, is invaluable. 1 extra melee skill may not sound like a lot, but it will make kcsm wipe the floor with purifiers out of the gate, because the kcsm can special while the purifiers can't, not to mention the damage and hp buffs.
To summarise, I've argued that units do not bear a direct comparison within a tier if it's across races. I've argued that units across tier do not bear direct comparison, even within the same races. I've argued that picking up earlier tier units from scratch and upgrading them is inefficient. I've argued that transitioning with units with relatively cost inefficient upgrades is a net cost efficiency because the levels, the reinforce cost are both preserved.
So, all things considered, I'm arguing that two units, across races, across tiers, in different compositions with different economies and different unit roles, do not bear direct comparison. This is true of both plague/tac missile as well as kcsm/ purifiers. So sure you could argue you could make an adjustment here or there and call it a wash, but maybe people will just keep on making their surface level judgments of how much the two units cost versus their combat efficacy and ignore all the other wealth of factors that make this game so enjoyable to cast and play, while also making it so hard to balance.
#thewallisover
Ps I just spent 45 mins writing this on my phone on the train, that was difficult. Apologies if there are mistakes in spelling and the like
I am going to argue that this is not the best way to look at their relationship.
Firstly , Codex , you are using the different race characteristics and the circumstances in which these units come about to argue that they are not the same unit type. I feel this is not a particularly valid argument as it can then be twisted to pretty much every unit in every situation in the game despite the fact that there are numerous examples of units fulfilling similar roles between races. By this very same logic i could say that csm , tacs and strikes in t1 do not fulfill the same role as a heavy infantry ranged unit and then site their minor differences as a reason, but that would be silly because they are fundamentally very similar units that accomplish similar roles in their own unique twists.
Now I will not say that any unit is a carbon copy of any other unit in the game. But to say that kcsm and purifiers dont deserve a comparison or even worse that purifiers are closer to ogryns is absurd. The reality is that all three units represent different implementations of a very same unit . And each has varying degrees of success .
Yes gk do have a different set of needs than chaos, and yes the way chaos gets kcsm is different than gk which allows for certain liberties in unit composition and ancillary roles(which are shared between many units.. like capping). However those are not reasons to disallow critical comparing of costs of the two. rather they are clear characteristics one can use to point out how units like kcsm/purifiers ogryns CAN work and how they CAN falter. How well they end up working is the core of the discussion.
Put simple, you argue them as reasons to not compare them. I argue they are reasons why purifiers aren't working. I firmly believe that purifiers as they are right now are flawed as a unit and their price tag is the reason. I think of kcsm and ogryns as inspiration to mold purifiers into their own thing.
GK is not some sort of firmly designed race at this point. It is perfectly fine to acknowledge that certain units are still finding their role in its line up. Just look at the last 2 patches, then look at 2.5. That is not a superfluous amount of change going on there.
Since combat is indeed what I have focused my argument on in the past Ill start with that and include ogryns.
Damage types aside all three do have massive over laps in the combat area.
1 all three have some sort of method to facilitate a chase. Ogryns get this in the form of an active ability, purifiers have a much longer charge than normal and kcsm have +1 speed. Now each of these vary in usefulness and are better in certain situations than others . but the end result is all three can chase . and they can chase better than most other units in their race.
(kcsm are clearly the best in chaos, purifiers are basically the only chasers and ogryns are basically the only melee for each race)
2 they all technically have higher durability than any other conventional melee squad. You can argue that kcsm barely qualify for this with their hp however all three units enjoy the heavy infantry or super heavy infantry armor type, all three enjoy a low model count to high hp ratio.
However at this point I want to address codex's assertion that purfiers are similar to ogryns as being front line units. Unless your opponent is completely pierce damage based that assertion is going to get both units killed. but ogyrns at the least do fulfill this role in other cases because ig flat out have no other unit to lead a charge with. GK do, their whole army under battle cry. The thing is that purifiers dont have super heavy armor so they bleed almost as fast as any other heavy infantry unit. Saying purifiers can lead a charge is no better or worse than saying banshees can lead the charge for a group of guardians because they have more hp and fewer models. They can last longer sure , but they are also more expensive to lose.
Hell, id use kcsm before either as a front liner just because losing models wont hurt as much. They are all reasonable leaders of a charge. all of them and that includeds kcsm. just because you use them and their +1 speed as a back cappers in no way detracts from their ability to perform as front liners.
3 Finally all three have an exotic damage type that makes them a threat to most units with the exception of walkers and supported battle tanks , Now I will concede that the performance in this regard varies between units but all of them can easily handle light vehicles with little issue.
Now on to cost.
The big sticking point for all three units is their reinforce cost. yes kcsm are dirt cheap, but that is again not a reason to disqualify a comparison to purifiers or ogryns rather it should be used as a strength to hold over those two units. Look no further than the fact that ogryns got an explicit reinforce cost reduction as proof of this.
These kind of units take loses , this is an inescapable fact. So if it is ridiculously expensive to replace them..... well then that unit is not a good damage sponge and by extension a bad unit to lead and army with.
The other bit of-course is that initial buy in. There is that sense that kcsm enjoy being a transition unit which makes them great for that double csm "greedy" opener you talked about but not so good for being bought fresh in t2 compared to ogryns and purifiers. But i can tell you right now that notion is a myth. You dont need all the upgrades for kcsm from the word go.
If you buy a csm and just upgrade it with the mark, you are slightly more expensive on req , but are 45 - 60 power cheaper. AND you still get that 75 req reinforce. if all you want is a quick heavy infantry melee unit , just get a kcsm. unless you are fighting a swarm of melee units most ranged squads wont really know the difference between a normal chain axe in their face and an eternal war axe in their face.
Now the one main point I do think you have over me is the ability to transition to a faster unit without the need buy a new one (especially in 1v1) And sure I will give you that, that is 1 role kcsm do have that differentiates them from purifiers and ogryns. However this is the one major difference. And it is a difference we can attribute to the flavor of the race they come from. just like ogryns can take on larger tanks or disrupt units is something unique or how purifiers get that dubiously useful aoe ability is unique.
KCSM are your shock trooper back cappers, but they can also be that army leading unit that you describe ogryns and purifiers as. Just because it can do both doesn't mean it is a completely different unit.
In the end , you can look at kcsm and say "this is how purifiers can work" does that mean an upgrade too strikes? nah, does it mean making a carbon copy of kcsm or ogryns? nah. Does it mean they need to do everything the same and fulfill every role? obviously not. But for the things they should share there needs to be a better ratio between cost and performance.
kcsm are just as cheap to reinforce as csm but have more hp. they work as a sponge. purifiers are more expensive to reinforce than units like strikes while only having a decent larger amount hp. they dont actually work as a sponges. Ogryns neatly side step this issue because they dont have anything that can really be compared too. But Cael recognized that they were too expensive to reinforce for what they could do.
I can make that comparison, it is a valid comparison. because it is a role they all share.