Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 2:39 pm

This is a response thread to a post in another that was dangerously close to starting derailment.

The OP is here for your reading pleasure


Codex wrote:I was perfectly happy to leave this point at that, until I saw your last post. And I'm so tired of this myth recurring in the population every so often that I want it now to be stamped out definitively.

First and foremost, read my post. I never said that you cannot compare their costs at all, I said that their costs do not bear a direct comparison. But I do warn against comparing units across tiers because in general people don't make a weighted judgement, they simply compare the face value and go "oh no the t1 unit so expensive! noooo"

I never once discounted your point that tac ml and plague marines fulfil a different role, but you keep needling my point about cross tier comparison. So let's consider the plague marines, and let's for the sake of argument compare them to tac missile launcher. Well, one of the biggest impact of plague marines is that they basically stop the chaos player going t3 for the foreseeable future. Do you see this happening with SM with missile launcher? No not really, SM often get a smooth transition into t3 even if they get a t2 unit. Generally the bleed is what stops the chaos player getting enough requisition to go t3.

So a casual observer may now be surprised that there is such a big difference between the economic impact of purchasing missile launcher, and getting plagues. But if anything it makes perfect sense that this happens. There is a reason why chaos terminators cost less than loyalist ones, because they are part of different economies, which means again they don't beat direct comparison in cost. And this is within the same tier, even.

Further, the fact that a unit is being carried over through transition, able to take advantage of a cheaper reinforce cost while keeping the utility of a power unit is amazing. In the case of tacticals, they are often with you from the beginning of a game, sometimes they'll be level 3 in t2, and most importantly they'll have been having game impact throughout the entire game. This means that their flexible upgrades should be a hefty investment and not perhaps be the most cost efficient upgrades ever, but this is a trade off against their versatility and flexibility.

This, compared to plague marines... Who come out at level 1, slow, but a decent combat unit... Hell yeah the plagues ought to be cheaper than tacs, and claiming that tac missile costs more than plagues is simply fallacious at best because it ignores all the compositional, economical and game impact considerations since forever.

Another factor to consider is that resources do not have a static value. Req is easy to come by early on in a game, and hard later on. Vice versa for power. This means that you could easily buy that tac squad in t1 for 450, but it would be harder in t3. In fact, it's probably straight up inefficient to do so.

To take another example, let's imagine that chaos is t3, and sees a tank. Let's say for the sake of argument that he feels like he wants melta Raptors from scratch or a predator. How does the melta raptor cost compared to the pred?

To build a fully upgraded raptor from scratch is unsurprisingly cost inefficient, and expensive, and very few people would do that unless they didn't have enough power for the predator. But one has to ask themselves why the raptor purchase is so inefficient on the face value-

A. The vanilla raptor purchase is much more efficient early on, similar to how tacs are gonna be inefficient to buy on t3. Again, this is because you're expected to get value and game impact out of them pre t3;
B. A significant part of the cost is in upgrades, which tend to be cost inefficient as a way to improving the capabilities of a squad or unit that has already made game impact, especially when they're a t1 unit.

Long story short, unless you're entirely desperate, I strongly recommended against buying a t1 unit and upgrading it first thing into a later tier, because it's expensive and inefficient.

To take the point back to kcsm, you're always talking about combat, and they perform like this or that in a fight. Well, I'm sorry, that's a really shallow way to look at a game. For someone who seems to care a lot about population as a resource, you don't really consider map control, opportunities, time, and economic streamlining and economic balance, which are far more important resources than simple population.

Kcsm don't bear direct comparison to purifiers at all. First and foremost, they belong to different armies and compositions. Kcsm are one of the big reasons why people can still get away with going 2 csm at high level 1v1, because their transition to t2 is so simple and efficient it's comparable to SM- buy a couple key upgrades, grab a t2 unit and you're dandy. But this itself is a trade off, that generally sacrifices t1 map pressure and vps for economic streamlining later. This usually means playing from behind for most of the game, and double tcsm doesn't provide the flexibility and often can be too greedy and immobile to pull off. Kcsm transition wonderfully enough and have enough speed to justify the greedy opener.

On the other hand, GK have no such issue, and nor do ogryns. If anything, kcsm are shock troops who make flanks and go capping, purifiers and ogryns are much more frontline and don't need to fulfil capping duties often at all, with so many other units in the composition to fulfil that duty.

So if we were actually using a proper definition of a unit by its role rather than a straight up fighter, kcsm and purifiers do not bear direct comparison.

To go back to the point of the transition of kcsm, apart from justifying a greedy chaos opener, and having a power free cheap reinforce at 75 req, they also bring the levels from t1 onwards, because they've been in the game for 5 mins already. Often when I'm going t2 I'm thinking to myself, which csm do I get my mok on, because sometimes I want it on my higher level csm. Why? Because the improved stats, especially melee skill, is invaluable. 1 extra melee skill may not sound like a lot, but it will make kcsm wipe the floor with purifiers out of the gate, because the kcsm can special while the purifiers can't, not to mention the damage and hp buffs.

To summarise, I've argued that units do not bear a direct comparison within a tier if it's across races. I've argued that units across tier do not bear direct comparison, even within the same races. I've argued that picking up earlier tier units from scratch and upgrading them is inefficient. I've argued that transitioning with units with relatively cost inefficient upgrades is a net cost efficiency because the levels, the reinforce cost are both preserved.

So, all things considered, I'm arguing that two units, across races, across tiers, in different compositions with different economies and different unit roles, do not bear direct comparison. This is true of both plague/tac missile as well as kcsm/ purifiers. So sure you could argue you could make an adjustment here or there and call it a wash, but maybe people will just keep on making their surface level judgments of how much the two units cost versus their combat efficacy and ignore all the other wealth of factors that make this game so enjoyable to cast and play, while also making it so hard to balance.

#thewallisover
Ps I just spent 45 mins writing this on my phone on the train, that was difficult. Apologies if there are mistakes in spelling and the like




I am going to argue that this is not the best way to look at their relationship.

Firstly , Codex , you are using the different race characteristics and the circumstances in which these units come about to argue that they are not the same unit type. I feel this is not a particularly valid argument as it can then be twisted to pretty much every unit in every situation in the game despite the fact that there are numerous examples of units fulfilling similar roles between races. By this very same logic i could say that csm , tacs and strikes in t1 do not fulfill the same role as a heavy infantry ranged unit and then site their minor differences as a reason, but that would be silly because they are fundamentally very similar units that accomplish similar roles in their own unique twists.

Now I will not say that any unit is a carbon copy of any other unit in the game. But to say that kcsm and purifiers dont deserve a comparison or even worse that purifiers are closer to ogryns is absurd. The reality is that all three units represent different implementations of a very same unit . And each has varying degrees of success .

Yes gk do have a different set of needs than chaos, and yes the way chaos gets kcsm is different than gk which allows for certain liberties in unit composition and ancillary roles(which are shared between many units.. like capping). However those are not reasons to disallow critical comparing of costs of the two. rather they are clear characteristics one can use to point out how units like kcsm/purifiers ogryns CAN work and how they CAN falter. How well they end up working is the core of the discussion.

Put simple, you argue them as reasons to not compare them. I argue they are reasons why purifiers aren't working. I firmly believe that purifiers as they are right now are flawed as a unit and their price tag is the reason. I think of kcsm and ogryns as inspiration to mold purifiers into their own thing.


GK is not some sort of firmly designed race at this point. It is perfectly fine to acknowledge that certain units are still finding their role in its line up. Just look at the last 2 patches, then look at 2.5. That is not a superfluous amount of change going on there.

Since combat is indeed what I have focused my argument on in the past Ill start with that and include ogryns.

Damage types aside all three do have massive over laps in the combat area.
1 all three have some sort of method to facilitate a chase. Ogryns get this in the form of an active ability, purifiers have a much longer charge than normal and kcsm have +1 speed. Now each of these vary in usefulness and are better in certain situations than others . but the end result is all three can chase . and they can chase better than most other units in their race.

(kcsm are clearly the best in chaos, purifiers are basically the only chasers and ogryns are basically the only melee for each race)

2 they all technically have higher durability than any other conventional melee squad. You can argue that kcsm barely qualify for this with their hp however all three units enjoy the heavy infantry or super heavy infantry armor type, all three enjoy a low model count to high hp ratio.

However at this point I want to address codex's assertion that purfiers are similar to ogryns as being front line units. Unless your opponent is completely pierce damage based that assertion is going to get both units killed. but ogyrns at the least do fulfill this role in other cases because ig flat out have no other unit to lead a charge with. GK do, their whole army under battle cry. The thing is that purifiers dont have super heavy armor so they bleed almost as fast as any other heavy infantry unit. Saying purifiers can lead a charge is no better or worse than saying banshees can lead the charge for a group of guardians because they have more hp and fewer models. They can last longer sure , but they are also more expensive to lose.

Hell, id use kcsm before either as a front liner just because losing models wont hurt as much. They are all reasonable leaders of a charge. all of them and that includeds kcsm. just because you use them and their +1 speed as a back cappers in no way detracts from their ability to perform as front liners.


3 Finally all three have an exotic damage type that makes them a threat to most units with the exception of walkers and supported battle tanks , Now I will concede that the performance in this regard varies between units but all of them can easily handle light vehicles with little issue.



Now on to cost.

The big sticking point for all three units is their reinforce cost. yes kcsm are dirt cheap, but that is again not a reason to disqualify a comparison to purifiers or ogryns rather it should be used as a strength to hold over those two units. Look no further than the fact that ogryns got an explicit reinforce cost reduction as proof of this.

These kind of units take loses , this is an inescapable fact. So if it is ridiculously expensive to replace them..... well then that unit is not a good damage sponge and by extension a bad unit to lead and army with.

The other bit of-course is that initial buy in. There is that sense that kcsm enjoy being a transition unit which makes them great for that double csm "greedy" opener you talked about but not so good for being bought fresh in t2 compared to ogryns and purifiers. But i can tell you right now that notion is a myth. You dont need all the upgrades for kcsm from the word go.

If you buy a csm and just upgrade it with the mark, you are slightly more expensive on req , but are 45 - 60 power cheaper. AND you still get that 75 req reinforce. if all you want is a quick heavy infantry melee unit , just get a kcsm. unless you are fighting a swarm of melee units most ranged squads wont really know the difference between a normal chain axe in their face and an eternal war axe in their face.


Now the one main point I do think you have over me is the ability to transition to a faster unit without the need buy a new one (especially in 1v1) And sure I will give you that, that is 1 role kcsm do have that differentiates them from purifiers and ogryns. However this is the one major difference. And it is a difference we can attribute to the flavor of the race they come from. just like ogryns can take on larger tanks or disrupt units is something unique or how purifiers get that dubiously useful aoe ability is unique.

KCSM are your shock trooper back cappers, but they can also be that army leading unit that you describe ogryns and purifiers as. Just because it can do both doesn't mean it is a completely different unit.


In the end , you can look at kcsm and say "this is how purifiers can work" does that mean an upgrade too strikes? nah, does it mean making a carbon copy of kcsm or ogryns? nah. Does it mean they need to do everything the same and fulfill every role? obviously not. But for the things they should share there needs to be a better ratio between cost and performance.


kcsm are just as cheap to reinforce as csm but have more hp. they work as a sponge. purifiers are more expensive to reinforce than units like strikes while only having a decent larger amount hp. they dont actually work as a sponges. Ogryns neatly side step this issue because they dont have anything that can really be compared too. But Cael recognized that they were too expensive to reinforce for what they could do.

I can make that comparison, it is a valid comparison. because it is a role they all share.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 3:30 pm

o god prepare to get rekt
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby lolzarz » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 3:38 pm

Dude crewfinity pass the doritos and pass the Mtn Dew, this is going to be interesting.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 3:41 pm

I am , don't worry . It is not that i don't know where codex is coming from. I understand that units are more than just their combat abilities.
However just because the units differ in how people choose to play them , does not at all mean they dont share enough similarities for me to compare them.

Kcsm , do more than purifiers, That is a fact, wont deny it at all
Kcsm do things that purifiers dont do and purifiers can kinda do things kcsm cant do. again i wont argue against that
Each unit is part of a race with different strengths and weaknesses and a different set of units with different roles that achieve similar goals, I will not deny that either.

But i can say that for every single unit in the game, but that doesn't mean they cant be compared because otherwise we wouldn't bother labeling units with types and rolls at all.

All of what codex said is true. But just because what he said is true, does not for a second mean that all i said was false or in fact wrong.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 3:42 pm

it may take codex a couple days to write another wall of text on his phone.

or maybe autocorrect will make him ragequit and i'll step in for him :P

saltychipmunk wrote:I am , don't worry . It is not that i don't know where codex is coming from. I understand that units are more than just their combat abilities.
However just because the units differ in how people choose to play them , does not at all mean they dont share enough similarities to be for me to say they share similar roles.

Kcsm , do more than purifiers, That is a fact, wont deny it at all
Kcsm do things that purifiers dont do and purifiers can kinda do things kcsm cant do.
Each unit is part of a race with different strengths and weaknesses and a different set of units with different roles that achieve similar goals, I will not deny that either.

But i can say that for every single unit in the game, but that doesn't mean they cant be compared because otherwise we wouldn't bother labeling units with types and rolls at all.

All of what codex said is true. But just because what he said is true, does not for a second mean that all i said was false or in fact wrong.


so what exactly is your argument? Because it seems like Codex was saying that its really difficult to compare even similar seeming units because you have to look at them in a larger context. I dont think he's saying you can't compare them, but rather you can't make far-reaching assumptions based off of that and its a much more complex comparison to make than you were saying it was.

and then you said you agreed :P
so are you trying to make a point here or just clarifying earlier comments you made?
Last edited by Crewfinity on Tue 20 Oct, 2015 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 3:44 pm

That is fine, I wouldn't have bothered with this thread if i did not feel it was worth a serious discussion.

At the end of the day there is something wrong with purifiers. That is not really very debatable at this point. they aren't used much at all and when they are used it is in very specific circumstances. Even in roles where they should be used . they are not used.

Does that mean my opinion it is correct, nope. Heck ill be happy if at the end of this codex gives me a licking and we have a constructive direction to go with purifiers.

That being said, come on just because high skilled players have found ways to use kcsm that distinguishes them from purifiers or ogryns doesn't suddenly make all the ways that they dont distinguish them selves vanish.

I can use kcsm as a cost effective transition to gain an advantage in map control . In 1v1 especially That is a useful tool to have.
But i can also use them exactly like i would use purifiers or ogryns. And in fact outside of that high skill 1v1 environment that is mostly what people end up doing with them. It is a thing and nothing about economy or army composition will change that.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 3:56 pm

Crewfinity wrote:it may take codex a couple days to write another wall of text on his phone.

or maybe autocorrect will make him ragequit and i'll step in for him :P

saltychipmunk wrote:I am , don't worry . It is not that i don't know where codex is coming from. I understand that units are more than just their combat abilities.
However just because the units differ in how people choose to play them , does not at all mean they dont share enough similarities to be for me to say they share similar roles.

Kcsm , do more than purifiers, That is a fact, wont deny it at all
Kcsm do things that purifiers dont do and purifiers can kinda do things kcsm cant do.
Each unit is part of a race with different strengths and weaknesses and a different set of units with different roles that achieve similar goals, I will not deny that either.

But i can say that for every single unit in the game, but that doesn't mean they cant be compared because otherwise we wouldn't bother labeling units with types and rolls at all.

All of what codex said is true. But just because what he said is true, does not for a second mean that all i said was false or in fact wrong.


so what exactly is your argument? Because it seems like Codex was saying that its really difficult to compare even similar seeming units because you have to look at them in a larger context. I dont think he's saying you can't compare them, but rather you can't make far-reaching assumptions based off of that and its a much more complex comparison to make than you were saying it was.

and then you said you agreed :P
so are you trying to make a point here or just clarifying earlier comments you made?


Think of it this way what i am saying is that in the context of this particular example codex is simply being too broad. this is not necessarily about purifiers ogryns or kcsm being identical units. Rather it is about them all filling a specific role.

that is why i am saying he is correct about everything he said. I am also saying that in this particular case (ie filling this particular roll) him being right about those things doesn't really matter too much. because the scope i am trying to talk about doesn't involve all those things.

And the scope is as a heavy infantry melee unit. not a back capper , not a transition unit , not an economy saving tool or an economy damning tool. because you can argue that there other things in each race that can do just that . So why bother bringing them up? yeah kcsm can be your back capper, well gk will probably have ops and ig will have a sent so back capping is cool but it is not the defining trait of this unit. I am discussing this with the fact that those other rolls are already filled in other ways in mind.

But the big question is as their primary intended purpose (which is a heavy infantry melee squad) do each of these squads do what they need to do for the cost they ask for?

Kcsm do, they cost dirt to replace and are beefy and damageing. ogryns kinda do since they are very durable if used correctly and are damaging.
But I am of the opinion that purifiers are not.

they are more durable that kcsm, but they are also far more extensive. And unlike ogryns i stand to argue their durability and prowess in melee does not measure up to their asking price.

In the roll i have defined here, I can say firmly. Kcsm excel , ogryns pass and purifiers fail.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 4:05 pm

i've been using them a lot recently actually :P

great unit, just a bit overcosted.

I've been finding that in general i like to go one of two routes in T2:
I either rush a HB rhino and then get purgations for the AV role and fire support,
or i get purifiers and then VA and then libby.

both perform well, you just have to be cautious about which engagements you decide to take with purifiers and try to keep them in retreat path or in flanking positions as much as possible, or use them as counter initiation to protect your VA.

I personally think that a reinforcement cost reduction like Ogryns are getting would solve most of their problems, but i'm sure Caeltos is aware of their current performance and has some plans for them.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 20 Oct, 2015 4:09 pm

I would agree, that or make their initial cost much lighter on power and move all of their active abilities to a power heavy upgrade.
Crewfinity wrote:i've been using them a lot recently actually :P

great unit, just a bit overcosted.


Fundamentally this is all i am really saying, i just used kcsm and ogryns to come to this conclusion. because despite everything codex said they are still the closest units in the entire game to purifiers.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby Codex » Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:45 am

Sorry for the slow reply, just going to sit down and whack out a proper reply when I find the time.

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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby Codex » Sun 25 Oct, 2015 11:52 am

Here we go.

Remember my point isn't that any two units cannot be compared at all. Of course you can compare anything at all, but there are significant dangers in doing such a thing, which I have listed already.

Case in point, yes tacs csm and strikes stand closer together than most units, and they appear in the same tier. So if anything these units bear direct comparison more than kcsm and purifiers. But looking at the races, they all appear in t1, which means that the face values are much more similar. On the other hand, I do believe that all things considered kcsm are further away from the other two. And the reason for this is this- I don't think just in pure combat terms when judging a unit and how it behaves as a unit, I'm also concerned with the way that economy and unit composition etc works.

I believe it's very important to consider the economic effect of buying a unit, so much so that it vastly impacts the role of said unit. For example, the economic effects that plague marines have on the chaos economy means there are two instances where you should get plague marines, either as av (obvious) or your economy isn't going that fantastically so you're going to bunker down and play a game of attrition. Purchasing them in any other game situation is likely going to be super subpar. Thus, I start viewing units in the roles, the economies and compositions in which they are. And the reason I think it's important is because of no unit ever exists in a vacuum.

You do say that you're being considerate of all these factors when making judgements, but the reason I'm finding that doubtful is because you still insist on things like kcsm are closer to purifiers etc. Perhaps this is so in terms of how they perform in combat, but I'll say this explicitly once- I think that ogryns should be closer to purifiers straight up cost than kcsm to either. Purifiers and ogryns should have approximately the same req cost, and ogryns should cost a bit more power than them. On the other hand, kcsm naked with just mark of khorne should be more requisition but far less power, with access to upgrades. I'm arguing that this is the case because csm are a t1 power free unit whereas purifiers and ogryns are t2 standalone purchases.

So by your own assertion, kcsm are closer to purifiers than ogryns, but I'm arguing that even though you think they're the best direct comparison, purifiers should be closer to ogryns in cost. That shows the effect of economy and other factors when assessing unit cost and efficacy.

So back to the original argument... I'm again not saying these units don't bear comparison at all, and I can see that you want to use them as a basis for talking about the other units. The issue then is that we're talking about "when is it okay to compare two units directly?" To which the obvious answer is "whenever you want, whenever it's done right." The issue I'm raising is that I don't think it's done right often at all, but that itself is a shades of grey assessment, sometimes it's done better than other times. That said I've yet to see a cross tier comparison on these forums that convinces me and isn't just a shambles, hence the original wall of text.

Anyway, I've neglected to reply directly to your other assertions because they are all along the lines of "this unit performs similarly in a combat function" which I've not been contesting (see above).

Btw why would you buy kcsm first thing in t2 from scratch? You're almost always better buying blood letters, bloodcrusher, plague marines, or dreadnought if you have access to that.
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Re: Purifiers and comparing them to KCSM / Ogryns

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 12:07 pm

Very well , we shall look at it your way.

Ill answer your last bit first.

I hate bloodletters. Now just because i said i can go for an extra csm in t2 doesn't mean i do so immediately , only a fool would willingly give up a tech rush to a unit he can already easily get. However, there are many situations where getting a tank is simply a bad idea, so dread and crusher are down. Blood letters are good at counter initiation or for dicking around with an enemy via their temporal invulnerability thing, however they are not very good chasers and they are much squishier than kcsm while not under worship or their said temporal ability.

I do appreciate how you said almost always, which is technically correct. but not always. If your play-style does not mesh well at all with blood letters then there are many more situations where getting that kcsm is preferable.


Why should purifiers cost the same as or similar too ogryns? I can see ogryns costing that much because they add a ton of things to an ig army that wasn't there before.

A walking tank against pierce damage, A high amount of melee heavy damage which makes them a threat to aggressive walkers or light vehicles in general and then that line breaking ability. basically a heavy (well super heavy infantry) unit that is melee.
none of the transitioning t1 guard squads really do any of those.

But, this is not really true for either chaos or gk.

Neither purifiers or kcsm are THAT much tankier over a standard strike squad or csm vs ranged fire. Unlike ig guardsman/cats/spotters etc which are extremely vulnerable to any kind of ranged fire.
Neither gk nor chaos are exactly wanting for melee either as both csm and strikes are inherently capable in melee, plus both races feature hero line ups that all get melee potency in some form in t2 ( even the chaos sorc to a smaller extent).
If it is av we want to talk about, neither purifiers or kcsm will hold a candle to ogryns and at best are a viable threat to light vehicles or retreating walkers.

Ig also doesnt really get many forms of standard blah direct av As most of their units that do do av need to work some sort of angle. as in they need to get very close or need to do the damage over a very long time or need to be setup) chaos and gk each get at-least 2 options that are much easier to use. (plauges - vindi , dread - psicannons).

The only reason why purifiers are a similar economic sink to ogryns is because Caeltos happened to give them a similar cost and they happen to fill the same unit purchase slot for each race. But that doesn't really mean that cost is justified.

Plus one can completely build around that slot. kcsm tend to be my 5th unit, purifiers (when i used to build them) also were my 5th unit. The only reason why purifiers tend to obliterate my economy is only because they have that power cost and that power bleed. But in terms of upkeep or unit composition, they do not actually differ all that much unless you go out of your way to make it that way.

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