Plague Marines

[CSM Emperor]

The plague marines should have an aspiring champion upgrade that adds a plague champion with bile spewer making the models 4 in total and adding a flamer stronger than noise marine's but weaker than plague champion's, the chosen plague marines should receive a plague aspiring champion with powerfist so the squad models can be 4 if you choose to invest also. They need the option to additional model because they are a marine squad, they should be able to have a leader, also you pay for that additional model.

[Caeltos]

Care to elaborate?

[Black Relic]

You need to say why Plague Marines and CPM's need this option for an upgrade rather than just so they can have four models. Do plague marines under perform in a certain way so they need this upgrade? ANd if they do you need a give us a good reason why that is and then use your propose as a solution to the issue. Granted i'm not against adding more stuff but this is a balanced mod so more than just "i want" or "i think" is needed.

But as a response to a reason why this shouldn't be added to this balance above all mod is that the chaos race tier 2 is a very good tier to sit in. Plague Marines in particular are a very good blind purchase since they can fit into most builds without too much of a problem. They are tanky, great capping unit and have AV potential all while doing a fair (not great) amount of damage. And many people wouldn't get this upgrade to begin with since chaos already struggles with population and upkeep once tier 2 hits. Adding this would be a burden to the chaos roster imo.

BTW chosen plague marines damage over time from their knives do heavy melee damage. So there isn't need for them to have a leader with a power fist.

btw this should really go in general discussion since this isn't a balance related topic.

[CSM Emperor]

Care to elaborate?

i edited the post explaining more

[Caeltos]

They need the option to additional model because they are a marine squad

That's not a very good explanation unfortunately. I want you to elaborate, merely from a gameplay perspective.

For an ex.

They should recieve this upgrade, due to poor scaling effiency versus X, Y (This being units, or matchups) and the unit itself in general with certain compositions with Plague Marines are underpopped, thus the additional sergeant upgrade can help transition the unit to perform better, alongside with staying on-par with the other players overall pop-effiency army.

Etc, etc. Try again. (What I did was an example, and not statement of fact)

[DandyFrontline]

Plague Marines got huge amount of HP with just a huge HP regen + melee resist and HP heal after model down. Adding additional model will make them over performing.

[CSM Emperor]

They need the option to additional model because they are a marine squad

That's not a very good explanation unfortunately. I want you to elaborate, merely from a gameplay perspective.

For an ex.

They should recieve this upgrade, due to poor scaling effiency versus X, Y (This being units, or matchups) and the unit itself in general with certain compositions with Plague Marines are underpopped, thus the additional sergeant upgrade can help transition the unit to perform better, alongside with staying on-par with the other players overall pop-effiency army.

Etc, etc. Try again. (What I did was an example, and not statement of fact)

They are bad av on their own, maybe their rocket damage should be further decreased so they get this upgrade cause in their current state they are a unit where you need 3 of them at least to be efficient. they are a choice when you played bad, have a lot of requisition and need to spam a unit that doesnt die easy and its good to cap. They have no mobility and can be easily dodged by a good player. Maybe their sergeant upgrade has a bolter and a blight granade ability on regular plague marines. And note you pay for the upgrade, its not by default and it also needs population cap, its not making plague marines OP.

[Thunderhost]

[/quote]
They are bad av on their own, maybe their rocket damage should be further decreased so they get this upgrade cause in their current state they are a unit where you need 3 of them at least to be efficient. they are a choice when you played bad, have a lot of requisition and need to spam a unit that doesnt die easy and its good to cap. They have no mobility and can be easily dodged by a good player. Maybe their sergeant upgrade has a bolter and a blight granade ability on regular plague marines. And note you pay for the upgrade, its not by default and it also needs population cap, its not making plague marines OP.[/quote]

They function as a snare and soft av, not as hard av. The are a choice that can compliment a your build, not a core unit. I honestly don't see what you're getting at here, PM as an unit works fine at the moment.

[lolzarz]

They are bad av on their own, maybe their rocket damage should be further decreased so they get this upgrade cause in their current state they are a unit where you need 3 of them at least to be efficient. they are a choice when you played bad, have a lot of requisition and need to spam a unit that doesnt die easy and its good to cap.

You're not supposed to use them as your only source of anti-vehicle damage. Use them to snare escaping vehicles and rekt them using bloodcrusher/dreadnought. If you wanted actual anti-vehicle damage you should have gotten Mark of Tzeentch havocs.

[CSM Emperor]

You're not supposed to use them as your only source of anti-vehicle damage. Use them to snare escaping vehicles and rekt them using bloodcrusher/dreadnought. If you wanted actual anti-vehicle damage you should have gotten Mark of Tzeentch havocs.

They cost too much for soft av that just snares. If it is just to snare then they should cost 300/40 for example. Use dreadnought to kill fleeing vehicles ?This means i already have a mark on the dreadnought also preferable mark of tzeentch.

[Dark Riku]

Thing is, PM's offer more than "just" AV with a snare. In Elite their anti infantry abilities are not to be underestimated and they can buy your units time versus melee unit with their slow aura and death explosion.

[Laplace's Demon]

You're not supposed to use them as your only source of anti-vehicle damage. Use them to snare escaping vehicles and rekt them using bloodcrusher/dreadnought. If you wanted actual anti-vehicle damage you should have gotten Mark of Tzeentch havocs.

They cost too much for soft av that just snares. If it is just to snare then they should cost 300/40 for example.

Come on man, plague marines are a great unit already and don't need a buff. They're already a blind choice. Eldar get no long range snare at all, period, and you're complaining yours isn't good enough?

[lolzarz]

You're not supposed to use them as your only source of anti-vehicle damage. Use them to snare escaping vehicles and rekt them using bloodcrusher/dreadnought. If you wanted actual anti-vehicle damage you should have gotten Mark of Tzeentch havocs.

They cost too much for soft av that just snares. If it is just to snare then they should cost 300/40 for example.

U foking wot m8 tacs w/ launcher cost 530/40 w/o snare and same damage

[CSM Emperor]

Thing is, PM's offer more than "just" AV with a snare. In Elite their anti infantry abilities are not to be underestimated and they can buy your units time versus melee unit with their slow aura and death explosion.

The slow aura is just to retreat in safety, they dont have heavy infantry armor and they take a lot of melee and ranged damage from all sources. Adding an aspiring champion upgrade even with plague bolter that adds a grenade ability, a blight grenade, is not a buff btw its an option to choose and you pay for the upgrade and if the aspiring dies you have to pay again.

[saltychipmunk]

You're not supposed to use them as your only source of anti-vehicle damage. Use them to snare escaping vehicles and rekt them using bloodcrusher/dreadnought. If you wanted actual anti-vehicle damage you should have gotten Mark of Tzeentch havocs.

They cost too much for soft av that just snares. If it is just to snare then they should cost 300/40 for example.

U foking wot m8 tacs w/ launcher cost 530/40 w/o snare and same damage

technically speaking tacs suck as av and are only used in that capacity because once the vehicle is dead they can spec out of it for a premium. But for a more solid vehicle deterrent the las dev will out shine them. that is on purpose.

snare is huge , never ever underestimate it because it makes everything else you own better vs tanks because it makes it much easier to chase or kite.

CSM Emperor I am struggling to find reason behind half of your posts.. could you enlighten me as to why you feel like these changes are needed? All this has to be coming from somewhere and it is odd for someone to be conflicting so regularly with the consensus of the community.

[Dark Riku]

The slow aura is just to retreat in safety, they dont have heavy infantry armor and they take a lot of melee and ranged damage from all sources. Adding an aspiring champion upgrade even with plague bolter that adds a grenade ability, a blight grenade, is not a buff btw its an option to choose and you pay for the upgrade and if the aspiring dies you have to pay again.

The slow aura is not only there to retreat safely. Although it's very annoying that it's very hard to finish of PM's in melee because of it. You can use them to screen your units from melee with them, slowing down with a melee unit is something you don't want. Indeed, they aren't HI and I see that as a bonus most of the time. They also posses an extremely high HP regen compared to other units. Adding this option to the unit definitely sounds as an unwarranted buff.
How is this not a buff? °_O

[Codex]

Look at it this way: if scouts couldn't buy a scout sergeant, would that be a nerf? If yes, then adding a leader to PMs is most certainly a buff.

[CSM Emperor]

CSM Emperor I am struggling to find reason behind half of your posts.. could you enlighten me as to why you feel like these changes are needed? All this has to be coming from somewhere and it is odd for someone to be conflicting so regularly with the consensus of the community.

As tactical sm, csm, asm, raptor take leader upgrade so should the plague marines and the noise marines that gives them cacophony ability ! Now i thought of it !Noise marines should also have a leader upgrade that gives them cacophony ability and the squad will be able to shoot while on cacophony. It wont be free cacophony anymore and would be t2.

[saltychipmunk]

CSM Emperor I am struggling to find reason behind half of your posts.. could you enlighten me as to why you feel like these changes are needed? All this has to be coming from somewhere and it is odd for someone to be conflicting so regularly with the consensus of the community.

As tactical sm, csm, asm, raptor take leader upgrade so should the plague marines and the noise marines that gives them cacophony ability ! Now i thought of it !Noise marines should also have a leader upgrade that gives them cacophony ability and the squad will be able to shoot while on cacophony. It wont be free cacophony anymore and would be t2.

Those are separate unit types.

tacs/csm/and strikes are all generalist units. And while their leaders do offer abilities, none of these abilities are particularly exotic or game changing.
the leaders themselves really only offer a slightly better stat unit with access to better melee. for 25 power it is actually not that good at all.

jump units like asm and raptors take this mechanic farther since a squad leader serves as their method of maintaining potency in the later game . both leaders are essentially a better model for their respective squad but they each get a new damage type and an ability that can make them selectively better in combating their counter (dedicated melee) .

However they are still more or less generalists. In both cases their leaders dont expand their roles or reinvent the wheel. they just make the squad they are a part of slightly better at what they already do.


Noise marines and plague marines are not generalists. they are specialists. giving them a leader upgrade makes about as much sense as putting a leader on devastators, shui platforms, rangers , purgs or spotters.. You pay for their specialty out right. What these kind of units do they must do on the outset and cannot be dependent on a leader upgrade that can be lost.

In a sense what you are asking here is to tie the role of these units to their leader .. rather than the squad itself. That simply is not practical.

[lolzarz]

They cost too much for soft av that just snares. If it is just to snare then they should cost 300/40 for example.

U foking wot m8 tacs w/ launcher cost 530/40 w/o snare and same damage

technically speaking tacs suck as av and are only used in that capacity because once the vehicle is dead they can spec out of it for a premium. But for a more solid vehicle deterrent the las dev will out shine them. that is on purpose.

snare is huge , never ever underestimate it because it makes everything else you own better vs tanks because it makes it much easier to chase or kite.

He's proposing for plague marines who have a snare to be cheaper than tactical space marines who do not have a snare. I know that the snare is a major advantage. Everyone and their mother knows that snares give an advantage. That's, like, the point of my comment.

[saltychipmunk]

U foking wot m8 tacs w/ launcher cost 530/40 w/o snare and same damage

technically speaking tacs suck as av and are only used in that capacity because once the vehicle is dead they can spec out of it for a premium. But for a more solid vehicle deterrent the las dev will out shine them. that is on purpose.

snare is huge , never ever underestimate it because it makes everything else you own better vs tanks because it makes it much easier to chase or kite.

He's proposing for plague marines who have a snare to be cheaper than tactical space marines who do not have a snare. I know that the snare is a major advantage. Everyone and their mother knows that snares give an advantage. That's, like, the point of my comment.

nono, you miss the point, the point was that tac's are supposed to not be cost effective av , where as plagues technically... are. So the concept that plagues are cheaper than tacs is not much of an issue at all. Rather, i sort of expect it.

Not arguing that plagues should be cheaper, just saying that using tacs as reason for or against is not wise.

[Codex]

Besides tac missile launcher is an upgrade to a t1 unit, whereas plague marines are a t2 straight purchase. Similar to comparing kcsm to purifiers, they cannot be directly compared in cost.

[saltychipmunk]

Besides tac missile launcher is an upgrade to a t1 unit, whereas plague marines are a t2 straight purchase. Similar to comparing kcsm to purifiers, they cannot be directly compared in cost.

Well they can be, it is just that you need to adjust your comparison to something other than just a 1-1 req to req , power power comparison And you need to pick a better unit to compare too.

Tacs aren't the right unit to compare plague marines as again we are comparing a generalist unit that can be av to an av unit that doesn't get a choice in the matter. It is not necessarily the fact that tacs are a transitioning t1 unit.

Where as kcsm and purifiers are more or less the same unit. They are both melee specialists that have an emphasis on high damage high durability and good chase potential. So they are very much comparable even if the fact that one is a transitioning t1 unit complicates things.

[Codex]

Yeah sure the reinforce cost being power free vs power unit doesn't change anything either.

[Cyris]

Where as kcsm and purifiers are more or less the same unit. They are both melee specialists that have an emphasis on high damage high durability and good chase potential. So they are very much comparable even if the fact that one is a transitioning t1 unit complicates things.

KCSM are a solid step better then Purifiers. Power free reinforce, silky smooth transitions and arguably better stats (less hp for +1 speed). Stop trying to make every balance discussion about these guys.

[saltychipmunk]

Where as kcsm and purifiers are more or less the same unit. They are both melee specialists that have an emphasis on high damage high durability and good chase potential. So they are very much comparable even if the fact that one is a transitioning t1 unit complicates things.

KCSM are a solid step better then Purifiers. Power free reinforce, silky smooth transitions and arguably better stats (less hp for +1 speed). Stop trying to make every balance discussion about these guys.

Was i actually the one who brought them up this time? Ill need to check , i do have that rep afterall.

Yeah sure the reinforce cost being power free vs power unit doesn't change anything either.

Well i should remind you that I am very much in the "purifiers are shit because they cost too much" camp. But that is not the point.

You CAN compare purifiers and KCSM, regardless of how you get them and maintain them. At the end of the day they are the same unit that performs the same roles. Now a discussion about if one does that job better/ or cheaper than the other has already been made else-ware. I think we need to make it clear that once a mark is selected a csm squad.. it stops being a csm squad forever. kcsm are not csm, tcsm are not csm. they cant go back, they trade that versatility for that focused role in melee or ranged combat. if we made strikes upgrade into purifiers then you could call them twins or atleast siblings.

Both are locked into their role until they die. They both suffer the same drawbacks , the same counters and the same perks.

You CANNOT compare tacs to plague marines. They are never fundamentally the same unit. A tac will never ever fulfill the role of an adequate dedicated av unit. It can be an av unit, but a dedicated av unit is not what the tac is. The tac at any moment can choose to be something else. Anti heavy infantry? anti building/ infantry? all of the above? totally possible. And the trade off for that is that they will never be even remotely as good as any one of those things in a dedicated unit.

the plagues can only ever be a beefy damage spounge / av unit . they cant be anything else.


This is the only point i wish to stress. I only went on a tangent on kcsm/ purifiers to humor codex because , yeah purifiers do need a look, there is a reason after all that you almost never see the poor picks anymore. but again not going into it here.

[Codex]

I was perfectly happy to leave this point at that, until I saw your last post. And I'm so tired of this myth recurring in the population every so often that I want it now to be stamped out definitively.

First and foremost, read my post. I never said that you cannot compare their costs at all, I said that their costs do not bear a direct comparison. But I do warn against comparing units across tiers because in general people don't make a weighted judgement, they simply compare the face value and go "oh no the t1 unit so expensive! noooo"

I never once discounted your point that tac ml and plague marines fulfil a different role, but you keep needling my point about cross tier comparison. So let's consider the plague marines, and let's for the sake of argument compare them to tac missile launcher. Well, one of the biggest impact of plague marines is that they basically stop the chaos player going t3 for the foreseeable future. Do you see this happening with SM with missile launcher? No not really, SM often get a smooth transition into t3 even if they get a t2 unit. Generally the bleed is what stops the chaos player getting enough requisition to go t3.

So a casual observer may now be surprised that there is such a big difference between the economic impact of purchasing missile launcher, and getting plagues. But if anything it makes perfect sense that this happens. There is a reason why chaos terminators cost less than loyalist ones, because they are part of different economies, which means again they don't beat direct comparison in cost. And this is within the same tier, even.

Further, the fact that a unit is being carried over through transition, able to take advantage of a cheaper reinforce cost while keeping the utility of a power unit is amazing. In the case of tacticals, they are often with you from the beginning of a game, sometimes they'll be level 3 in t2, and most importantly they'll have been having game impact throughout the entire game. This means that their flexible upgrades should be a hefty investment and not perhaps be the most cost efficient upgrades ever, but this is a trade off against their versatility and flexibility.

This, compared to plague marines... Who come out at level 1, slow, but a decent combat unit... Hell yeah the plagues ought to be cheaper than tacs, and claiming that tac missile costs more than plagues is simply fallacious at best because it ignores all the compositional, economical and game impact considerations since forever.

Another factor to consider is that resources do not have a static value. Req is easy to come by early on in a game, and hard later on. Vice versa for power. This means that you could easily buy that tac squad in t1 for 450, but it would be harder in t3. In fact, it's probably straight up inefficient to do so.

To take another example, let's imagine that chaos is t3, and sees a tank. Let's say for the sake of argument that he feels like he wants melta Raptors from scratch or a predator. How does the melta raptor cost compared to the pred?

To build a fully upgraded raptor from scratch is unsurprisingly cost inefficient, and expensive, and very few people would do that unless they didn't have enough power for the predator. But one has to ask themselves why the raptor purchase is so inefficient on the face value-

A. The vanilla raptor purchase is much more efficient early on, similar to how tacs are gonna be inefficient to buy on t3. Again, this is because you're expected to get value and game impact out of them pre t3;
B. A significant part of the cost is in upgrades, which tend to be cost inefficient as a way to improving the capabilities of a squad or unit that has already made game impact, especially when they're a t1 unit.

Long story short, unless you're entirely desperate, I strongly recommended against buying a t1 unit and upgrading it first thing into a later tier, because it's expensive and inefficient.

To take the point back to kcsm, you're always talking about combat, and they perform like this or that in a fight. Well, I'm sorry, that's a really shallow way to look at a game. For someone who seems to care a lot about population as a resource, you don't really consider map control, opportunities, time, and economic streamlining and economic balance, which are far more important resources than simple population.

Kcsm don't bear direct comparison to purifiers at all. First and foremost, they belong to different armies and compositions. Kcsm are one of the big reasons why people can still get away with going 2 csm at high level 1v1, because their transition to t2 is so simple and efficient it's comparable to SM- buy a couple key upgrades, grab a t2 unit and you're dandy. But this itself is a trade off, that generally sacrifices t1 map pressure and vps for economic streamlining later. This usually means playing from behind for most of the game, and double tcsm doesn't provide the flexibility and often can be too greedy and immobile to pull off. Kcsm transition wonderfully enough and have enough speed to justify the greedy opener.

On the other hand, GK have no such issue, and nor do ogryns. If anything, kcsm are shock troops who make flanks and go capping, purifiers and ogryns are much more frontline and don't need to fulfil capping duties often at all, with so many other units in the composition to fulfil that duty.

So if we were actually using a proper definition of a unit by its role rather than a straight up fighter, kcsm and purifiers do not bear direct comparison.

To go back to the point of the transition of kcsm, apart from justifying a greedy chaos opener, and having a power free cheap reinforce at 75 req, they also bring the levels from t1 onwards, because they've been in the game for 5 mins already. Often when I'm going t2 I'm thinking to myself, which csm do I get my mok on, because sometimes I want it on my higher level csm. Why? Because the improved stats, especially melee skill, is invaluable. 1 extra melee skill may not sound like a lot, but it will make kcsm wipe the floor with purifiers out of the gate, because the kcsm can special while the purifiers can't, not to mention the damage and hp buffs.

To summarise, I've argued that units do not bear a direct comparison within a tier if it's across races. I've argued that units across tier do not bear direct comparison, even within the same races. I've argued that picking up earlier tier units from scratch and upgrading them is inefficient. I've argued that transitioning with units with relatively cost inefficient upgrades is a net cost efficiency because the levels, the reinforce cost are both preserved.

So, all things considered, I'm arguing that two units, across races, across tiers, in different compositions with different economies and different unit roles, do not bear direct comparison. This is true of both plague/tac missile as well as kcsm/ purifiers. So sure you could argue you could make an adjustment here or there and call it a wash, but maybe people will just keep on making their surface level judgments of how much the two units cost versus their combat efficacy and ignore all the other wealth of factors that make this game so enjoyable to cast and play, while also making it so hard to balance.

#thewallisover
Ps I just spent 45 mins writing this on my phone on the train, that was difficult. Apologies if there are mistakes in spelling and the like

[saltychipmunk]

Well , to be fair , my post was an over all clarification and was not necessarily directed to you specifically since as cyris pointed out i do bring them up a bunch. I wanted to make my position on the matter perfectly clear to everyone.

Anyway, I am going to answer your post in a new thread because it warrants it.