A minimal cast distance should be applied onto grenade abilities

[hastaga]

When melee squads go onto grenade throwing units (dire avengers/scouts), they're supposed to be the ones punishing instead of the ones being punished.

A very common tactics of grenade units users is that they 'bait' the attacking melee squad into or partially into the squad, and throw their grenades + hitting X.The melee units hitting them will then get exploded by the greandes or be forced to retreat. Sometimes even retreat won't be enough.

An example of how annoying it is to deal with the grenades.
I was playing triumph today, he was running around with 2 dire avenger squads bashing gens.
The only way to really chase them out is to use melee units, so I used raptors (the rest are too slow)
What happened next was very simple; I caught them in melee range, they dropped 2 nades on their feet and instant X out. I lost model(s)
What the hell? Am I supposed to constantly stay 3 feet away from them now when I'm trying to kill them with melees? Are you trying to tell me I'm not supposed to use jump squads on them?

Might as well give them power melee like catachan if the unit was intended to be used as an anti melee squad.

Those units are supposed to attack from range. If they get locked up in melee, they should be punished, instead of punishing people.

[Kvn]

Grenades act as a deterrent so that the squads with them don't get completely wrecked. It isn't that difficult to see when they're about to throw given that their energy drops sharply (and some squads will shout a grenade warning) so as long as you're paying attention to the engagement, they should be avoidable. Units with a jump-charge that doesn't disrupt like ASM, Raptors, Storms, Hormas, and Banshees have a harder time of it, but it just comes down to recognizing the threat and moving elsewhere. Once its dodged, the unit is just as vulnerable as any other.

[hastaga]

Explain "completely wrecked"
You probably can't, coz they aren't getting wrecked, at all. How wrecking? Jump squads such as AM/Raptors dont' do high enough amount of dmg to kill units fast esp when they're runining away at the same time. It takes more than a few hits to drop a model. If a ranged squad gets tied up, they deserve to get wrecked by melee or they give ground. Anti melee is supposed to be done by a squad that is for anti melee.

Also:
scouts have stealth and shotgun
Dire avengers have fleet and range

Lots of room for preemptive measures before they get tied up

If a banshee squad or a force commander show up to murder my jumpsquad after then you can say those units are fulfilling their purposes as melee units bullies.

Do they still need a pointblank range nade to give the jump squad/melee squad that manage to lock them in melee a big FXXK YOU?

Something that is outside of stats: Sometimes dodging nades become even more difficult because of attack animations.

Edit: ALSO, AS MENTIONED. Those units are going to retreat out anyway. Why do they get to drop nades before retreating out? If discouraging pursuer was the intention then just give them a point blank retreating smoke screen ability or something like that.

[Kvn]

Completely wrecked usually applies to units getting hit by a special attack (most notably those of the Banshees) and then getting shredded while they're trying to retreat out while on the ground.

While they don't necessarily *need* something like that, it isn't strictly used for anti-melee either. Grenades act as a utility purchase, helping to counter melee charges, garrisoned units, and setup teams. Tactical Marines don't *need* ATSNNF either, but it's a nice backup tool to have which can swing engagements if used properly and let them turn the tables on would-be melee attackers.

Avoiding the grenades is just a matter of micro. There's really not much else to it than that. It's difficult at first, but once you get the hang of it, they stop being so dangerous. Each unit acts just a little different, so learning to counter it is a matter of practice for them. Watching that energy bar tells you all you need to know usually.

If the units throwing the grenades retreat out, that's a good thing for you. That means they're forced off, and so longs as you manage to dodge, they're gone without doing much, giving you the option to send that melee unit to cap or to pressure the rest of his army.

If it really becomes a serious issue for you to deal with, I'd advise trying it out yourself to learn the mindset behind setting them up as well as seeing how other people go about avoiding them. Not mandatory really, but it could help.

Smoke screens wouldn't do anything to help since smoke doesn't affect melee combat. Only ranged fire.

[hastaga]

Let me remind you that this thread is strictly made for grenade cast in "pointblank" range, thus a minimal cast range. Idgaf if you can use it to deter melee charge coming from 20 units away.

You are also only replying me with crap like "oh you could just coop with the current situation by doing this doing that". That's not a 'balance' related statement, nor did I not know about it. For crying out loud. Just because something is killable/dodgable doesn't make it a proper deesign/mechanism. See? You didn't even bother arguing why it is necessary for those grenade units to be able to toss grenades at their feet when they run away while I've explained why shouldn't they be allowed to do that.

Actually, since you've agreeed taht they don't necessarily "need" it and i am trying to argue they "shouldn't" have it, i'd say you're agreeing with me already

Lastly... for crying out loud, can you not tell that "smoke screen" is just a general representation of the implication of alternatives that can be used? What about something that slows movement speed by 10%? 0.1 sec brief stun? Or other purposes? "Smoke screens wouldn't do anything to help since smoke doesn't affect melee combat. Only ranged fire." is such a useless/unhelpful statement.

[Kvn]

Let me remind you that this thread is strictly made for grenade cast in "pointblank" range, thus a minimal cast range. Idgaf if you can use it to deter melee charge coming from 20 units away.

I understand that. However, those other facets I mentioned are part of the grenade's design. You can't just look at one aspect of a unit/upgrade/ability in a vacuum. It simply doesn't work.

You are also only replying me with crap like "oh you could just coop with the current situation by doing this doing that". That's not a 'balance' related statement, nor did I not know about it. For crying out loud. Just because something is killable/dodgable doesn't make it a proper deesign/mechanism. See? You didn't even bother arguing why it is necessary for those grenade units to be able to toss grenades at their feet when they run away while I've explained why shouldn't they be allowed to do that.

You know, it is very difficult to speak with someone when they pointedly ignore your comments and simply get frustrated. I'm telling you exactly how to deal with the grenades in a way that players have been doing since the game first came out. If you refuse to dodge the grenade, you get punished. If you walk right into suppression, you get punished. If you try to force melee with your snipers, you get punished. It's just part of the game, and it's not even that difficult to play around. Think of it like baiting out the 'kill the weak' from the Chaos Lord. If you get hit, it means bad things are going to happen, but both can be avoided in much the same way. Feint in, move back, watch their energy. It isn't like they explode on impact and insta-wipe squads.

Actually, since you've agreeed taht they don't necessarily "need" it and i am trying to argue they "shouldn't" have it, i'd say you're agreeing with me already

You certainly enjoy putting words in my mouth that directly contradict what I'm saying, don't you? Just because something isn't mandatory doesn't mean it should be cut out. For example, ranged units don't *need* to have melee attacks at all since they're not meant to be fighting in melee to begin with. However, some of them do, and some such as Tacs, CSM, and Strikes can even hold their own in CC. This is part of the game. Just because you or I or someone else doesn't agree with it, doesn't mean it should be immediately removed or that it's broken. Something doesn't have to be needed to be a good part of the game.

Lastly... for crying out loud, can you not tell that "smoke screen" is just a general representation of the implication of alternatives that can be used? What about something that slows movement speed by 10%? 0.1 sec brief stun? Or other purposes? "Smoke screens wouldn't do anything to help since smoke doesn't affect melee combat. Only ranged fire." is such a useless/unhelpful statement.

The example you gave was of a smoke screen so I interpreted it as a smoke screen, which, in terms of game mechanics, only modifies ranged fire. I apologize if that's not what you intended, but I always work under the assumption that the person I'm speaking to means what they say. Grenades are hardly game breaking, and quite frankly they're not difficult to play around (unless you're getting one of your setup teams bombed from an infiltrated unit) since it just requires a bit of quick reactions.

[Crewfinity]

microing around game spikes is part of the game buddy. just gotta get good at spotting them

Kvn knows what he's talking about. He made a bunch of really good points.

[hastaga]

Still not addressing the main issue.

So let me get this straight, Kvn. All you're saying is that "they can do this" and "you can do this to counter".
The title of this thread is "A minimal cast distance should be applied onto grenade abilities". If you're to NOT agree with me, how about you say something about why shouldn't there be a minimal cast distance?

I also did say something like "they should get rekt by melee units if they get caught", so say something about "why should they be able to/deserve to do this to punish melee units that've caught them".

Range units' melee atks are such irrelevance in comparison, they don't drop hostile models when they're supposed to get punished.

The fact about the grenade dropping is that not only do they heavily punish melee pursuers, they also deter them from trying to chase them. Is this supposed to happen?!

Unless giving grenades a minimal cast range is mechanically impossible. Otherwise, you need to address the lines in bold in order to meaningfully dismiss this thread. Telling me how to get around of it is not the purpose of this thread.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Still not addressing the main issue.

So let me get this straight, Kvn. All you're saying is that "they can do this" and "you can do this to counter".
The title of this thread is "A minimal cast distance should be applied onto grenade abilities". If you're to NOT agree with me, how about you say something about why shouldn't there be a minimal cast distance?

Since you posted this in the balance section you must consider this mechanic unbalanced, yet, you have not explained why it is so. All the indicators for a grenade toss are there for you to pick up. Have you considered that skill is actually a factor when considering balance aspects of the game? Since counterplay is possible and exists and is practiced by almost every above-decent player, goes to show that this mechanic is not unbalanced, as you have claimed.

[KanKrusha]

I am going to repeat the what Kvn said but try and reword it to address your concerns and to to Simply repeat it because sometimes that is what it takes for things to make sense

Why do some ranged squads (scouts and DAs) have the ability to cast grenades at point blank range? Obviously this is a melee counter but how is it balanced?

Melee counters are reaaalllly important because a melee squad that catches a ranged squad can get a squad wipe (extra damage on retreat) and squad preservation is an essential part of the game.

Now the two examples are scouts and DAs. Space marines are weak on melee and have few melee counters. Yes they have shotguns but that is one blast and it is to protect the tacs and devs too. Also shotguns locks scouts out of sniper rifles so it is good to have another option. Lastly, scouts are often away capping so vulnerable to getting isolated and cut off and need an exit strategy.

Eldest are likewise limited in anti- melee. They have banshees and shurikens. Shurikens are static and should be flanked by melee squads. Banshees are difficult to use, fragile and expensive which means it is only fair to give eldar players an extra melee counter so they don't have to include banshees in their build.

You say that shotgun, scout speed, fleet of foot and range are enough. The game designers disagreed and felt that extra options were necessary. Don't forget the extra damage from melee on retreat. If a slug a squad cuts you off in the rear you can't simply retreat without risking a squad wipe. Plus retreating gives up the field so you can be out capped. Would it be balanced if you had to give up All your points every time a melee squad attempted a flank?

I would like to say that whoever you were playing against could ha e hurt you more by tossing the grenades and fleeting away and staying on the field! Then you would have reAlly been crying

Also, I think from what you describe you must have marched your raptors up to two squads of DAs which probably shot them in the face repeatedly before throwing the grenades. Were they levelled up squads doing extra damage? Did they have guide cast on them to do extra grenade damage?

Also there is balance in that raptors are very fragile because the rest of chaos army puts out so much damage. Sending raptors may have been a poor choice (balanced!)

Some things in this game are counter-intuitive and picking the right counters can be hard till you know the game. I remember people complaining about this years ago, it has stayed in the game because enough people thought it was balanced. Or that it is a good feature and the rest of that particular race is balanced around this feature.

EDIT - just and re-read your posts and finally understood why you are frustrated (I think)

You are saying grenades should have a minimum cast range and you are expecting a logical counter-arguement. But all you are getting is "get over it"

The problem is, this is the status quo, everyone else is used to it, accepts it and thinks it is balanced. Unfortunately, and I don't think you are going to like this, this puts the obligation on YOU to provide a strong argument for changing things.

Sorry, your argument isn't strong enough for people to challenge their preconceptions that the current situation is fine and balanced. You need to provide better examples and stats. You probably need to provide high level competition play examples. Unfortunately the example you have provided is not convincing enough

[Vapor]

I agree that it's pretty lame and I also think that grenades should do less damage by design.

That said, it's been the way it is for a very long time and changing it at this point would require a lot of other changes to maintain balance. It's a matter of opinion, of course. DoW2 in general likes to punish players harshly for small micro lapses, and that's part of the thrill for a lot of 1v1 players especially.

Also, way to tiddle taddle around OP's point guys

[hastaga]

A reminder, KanKrusha, in case you forgot.
SM and Eldar also have units that can do knockback (ASM/Rangers). ASM can jump twice (forth to initiate and back for peeling, etc.) and the knockback from rangers can be safely performed from afar. The argument that these races don't have enough anti melee means that pointblank nades should be allowed thus do not stand.

Let me stress my point here once again;
1. Ranged units deserve to be punished when they are tied up in melee UNLESS DESIGNED OTHERWISE (such as 'anti melee ranged units' like noise marines or ranged units that do so-so in both melee and range like csm/tac)
2. Nade throwers have enough means to evade melee attacks before they can be punished, it doesn't make sense for them to be able to punish melee or save themselves from pursuer (coz of melees backing off to dodge nades) when it is supposed to be their turn to be punished.

the 'balance' issue here is thus; able to drop nade at point blank before retreat gives Nade units an unfair advantage on anti-melee

I also would like to point out that micro aside, game movement can be sluggish and wonky at times that makes dodging pointblank nades more difficult than it should be.

[Thunderhost]

While I see your argument, I fail to see the relevance of it I must admit. The "grenade game" has been an intristic part of dow2 since vanilla more or less. Personally I find it an added thrill to try and bait out the grenades before charging in, but that's selective I guess.
I honestly don't see it as a balance issue because;
Grenades cost energy, i.e you can do it once before the melee squad eats you (per squad granted)
No t1 unit comes out the gate with grenades, it's an upgrade with a power cost
It actually requires a fair bit of skill to spike with grenades, it's not something you "just do". In the same spirit, you can actually made yourself as well.
If you miss the spike, you will get torn an new one by said melee unit, either forcing a retreat or possibly a wipe.

On the other hand, if there was a minimum range on grenades, I could basically nullify those by get into said range. With units with heavy armor that basically means an advantage in maneuvering, as you more or less can ignore the piercing damage from the grenade carriers (for awhile at least). Setup teams would probably get an unforeseen advantage as well, as setting up within min range would now force a grenade unit away from them for a throw, possibly suppressing or causing damage. This last is dubious, my point here being that there's a chain of events to everything.

[saltychipmunk]

I would agree about nades as a melee deterrent if it weren't for the fact that melee units once in actual melee become too clingy to effectively avoid a grenade.

you can try and force an early nade by not fully engaging , but once you are engaged it is very easy to throw a bomb at ones feet and move off of it on retreat. It is another thing entirely to get units under the charge mechanic to get off of such a bomb unscathed since you will probably have 2 or 3 models that jump 10 feet forward and then have to walk back to the rest of the melee squad (and right over the bomb in the process).

But i always found it silly that the best idea a unit comes up with for getting out of melee is to drop a life nade at their feet and hope for the best.

you do that in real life and you wont have feet or you will have a knife in your back . admittedly this is not real life but i feel range squads have been taking to much advantage of the fact that most grenades have ridiculously small aoe .

[Thunderhost]

Good point with the charge distance.
Going completely off-topic here, you actually DO use grenades versus charging infantry. IF you're in an entrenched position. So it's not that far from reality as you'd think.

[Lichtbringer]

When melee squads go onto grenade throwing units (dire avengers/scouts), they're supposed to be the ones punishing instead of the ones being punished.

A very common tactics of grenade units users is that they 'bait' the attacking melee squad into or partially into the squad, and throw their grenades + hitting X.The melee units hitting them will then get exploded by the greandes or be forced to retreat. Sometimes even retreat won't be enough.

An example of how annoying it is to deal with the grenades.
I was playing triumph today, he was running around with 2 dire avenger squads bashing gens.
The only way to really chase them out is to use melee units, so I used raptors (the rest are too slow)
What happened next was very simple; I caught them in melee range, they dropped 2 nades on their feet and instant X out. I lost model(s)
What the hell? Am I supposed to constantly stay 3 feet away from them now when I'm trying to kill them with melees? Are you trying to tell me I'm not supposed to use jump squads on them?

Might as well give them power melee like catachan if the unit was intended to be used as an anti melee squad.

Those units are supposed to attack from range. If they get locked up in melee, they should be punished, instead of punishing people.

I see you are not happy with the answers here, so I will try and stick to your points:

Those units are supposed to attack from range. If they get locked up in melee, they should be punished, instead of punishing people.

I don't agree. Direavengers for example are supposed to be tactically adaptable. They are the most well rounded aspect (in lore atleast). In the game this is represented by the upgrades. They are versatile.

This is a design thing btw, and not balance right?

When melee squads go onto grenade throwing units (dire avengers/scouts), they're supposed to be the ones punishing instead of the ones being punished.

I disagree, the player with more skill should punish the player with less.
And if you play better then your opponent, your units will not be hit by the nade and kill the rangedsquad.


Now for your example: I have a hard time imagining it, if you jump atleast one of them, you should be able to force them off.

I will give an example of my own: I played a game, I threw a nade near an enemy melee unit, and it did almost no damage. Then my DAs were killed in retreat...


And units are not holed into a single purpose. They are a ranged squad, yes. But they aren't a ranged superiority squad I would say. They have low hp, this is balanced by their battleequipment. They get versatility. So yes, I absolutly believe they should have a skillfull semieffective meleedeterent that can be played around. Same goes for scouts, in a straightup gunfight they win no prices, their whole value lies in their utility.

Many units are multipurpose.

To conclude:
Do I think grenadethrowing units perform too good? No.
Do I think meleeunits can't do their job because of grenades? No, melee units still see a lot of use.
Softcounters make a game fun to play.

[Cyris]

I for one would be happy to see grenade spiking go away. It's a silly mechanic and I've never liked it. This has nothing to do with balance or inexperience. I know how to spike, how to see a spike coming and how to counter them. But it's a painfully unituitive mehcnaic that seems to bend the rules of physics

The IST nades are exactly what I'd like all nades to be like (though they still could use a little buffing). It still is a mind game between you and your opponent to land it or not, but it doesn't rely on weird throw arc warping proeprties to work, and is less all-or-nothing in it's effectiveness.

[saltychipmunk]

Good point with the charge distance.
Going completely off-topic here, you actually DO use grenades versus charging infantry. IF you're in an entrenched position. So it's not that far from reality as you'd think.

Realistically grenades are used as much as a tool for controlling the movement of people as they are a tool for killing out right.

So one would use a grenade in your scenario to thwart the advance rather than kill the enemy (ie you take advantage of the fact that people dont want to die by providing an obvious case in which they WILL die while at the same time having an equally obvious way to avoid death , by not walking over the grenade) . just like you can use a grenade to deny cover or get someone to jump out of cover an into an exposed position by throwing a grenade at them.

What we have in this game is slightly different. your scenario would happen only if there was actually a minimum range to throw between you and the advancing melee squad.

What we have in this game is akin your defensive line electing to play the part of a suicide bomber and throwing a cooked grenade at their feet to kill both them and the enemy in a self destructive act of murder. The only reason it works here is because grenades in this game don't even have a 10th of the lethal aoe range a real grenade has (which is pathetic for the year 40000). So dropping one at your feet , moving 5 feet and not even getting hurt is completely possible in this game and thus unrealistic shit like nade spiking is possible.

[Thunderhost]

Not sure I'm getting exactly what you're gunning at here. My point was actually that, IRL, you're in an entrenched position (say a foxhole) and being charged, you'd chuck a grenade and duck into your hole. Wait until explosion, the engage again. And I DO think that bears a sorta resemblance to the spiking mechanic, even if works without cover. And no, that doesn't require a minimum distance at all. Or am I missing your point?

[saltychipmunk]

Well my point is you cant throw an explosive device with a kill radius of 15 meters at your feet , and expect to out run the explosion. Which is exactly what nade spiking is, people magically outrunning explosions.

So most of the time (unless death is what you want) you have to use them less directly.

By all means keep nade spiking, but it has got to punish the spiking squad a fair bit.

[hastaga]

As a reminder; please don't bring in lore stuff. This is a game. I am sure in 'lore' you don't get to insta 'X' out when you're at a disadvantage nor do you get to throw a nade at your feet as you 'X' out, in lore :0)

I really don't want to reply lichtbringer coz judging from the way he argues -_- he's just typing out w/e he feels instead of something that is well thought

But i'll point it out anyway, so that he won't reply me with the same level of stuff;
Yea firstly he did try to bring in 'lore' into a balance/unit design thread.
Second, I don't care what do you 'believe' if you don't at least explain 'why';

He said.
"They are a ranged squad, yes. But they aren't a ranged superiority squad I would say. They have low hp, this is balanced by their battleequipment. They get versatility. So yes, I absolutly believe they should have a skillfull semieffective meleedeterent that can be played around."

Yea. I am not bashing the fact that they can use grenade. There is their utility. I am also not bashing that. Grenades can be used in various ways, I am also not bashing that. Does that explain why they can/need to/deserve to drop nade to punish melee units before they X out though?. No. And I've already pointed out that eldar has at least 3 other ways to counter melee in t1 so being able to drop nades at feet is absolutely not a consideration due to lack of counter-melee means

Last but not least;

"To conclude:
Do I think grenadethrowing units perform too good? No.
Do I think meleeunits can't do their job because of grenades? No, melee units still see a lot of use.
Softcounters make a game fun to play."

What the fk is this?! This thread isn't about grenadethrowing units performing 'too good' (and how 'too good'!? Are you addressing to the fact that they can drop nades at their feet before X out?"
"Do I think meleeunits can't do their job because of grenades? No, melee units still see a lot of use." Again, poor argument. I didn't say anything about 'melee units can't do their job because of nades. They are still retreating and I still get to zone them out alright?! I am just not 'okay' witht he fact taht they get to drop nade AT THEIR FEET to dmg/prevent chasing as they X out.
"Soft counters make a game fun to play." Fun to whom? The side that is having an advantage of coz? It's not fun if it's not fair. Please refrain from using subjective terms to justify the 'balancing' of a certain function in game.

[Black Relic]

Well. I do think grenades should have a minimum cast range. Grenade spiking does piss me off in that a melee (and some casts point blank throws on Set up teams) units can suddenly be either wiped out or bleed way more than the squad that threw the nade in the first place.

If i were to put a minimum cast range it would be 3-4. That would give melee units just enough time to peel off the (or a squad) squad that's throwing the nade to avoid the damage (if the nade is placed badly) or at least most of it. And if they are hit less bleed but still lose some models. And it wouldn't remove the threat of a nade being thrown when a melee units is approaching.

[Asmon]

Grenades should not have a minimum cast range. If you micro properly you can actually punish the squad for its grenade spike. I'd be glad to show it ingame to whoever wants me to.

[hastaga]

Great explanation there, Asmon *sarcasm*

Seriously, for discussion's sake, "WHY" do you not think grenade should have a minimal cast range?
Surely not for some bs reason like "because you can micro out of it". No shit.

[Asmon]

It has been said already. Grenades are meant to deter melee, to deal with garrisons and setup-teams, and kill stuff in retreat. We will not delete one of grenades' role just because you cannot deal with it.

You came to the forum and raised quite a lot of so-called issue for the mere reason you had a bad experience against them. Truth is, if the vast majority of skilled players are fine with grenades for several years now, it is because grenades are fine.

[hastaga]

Yea Asmon, no shit, I can outplay a GK player too, or beat an eldar using dragon, or triple sniper SM pre nerfed.

Just because you can come up with something to work around it doesn't mean it's 'fair', however.

Also you can still deter melee even with a minimal cast range, when they're charging at you, but not when they're already attacking you. I also explained why shouldn't the DA be able to do that as they are meant to be punished by melee instead of getting even a chance to punish melee when they're supposed to be punished.

You also suggested absolutely nothing to justify why should the DA be able to do that.

[Codex]

Let's be clear here: as I've said before on the other thread, the first line against balance issues is strategy discussion. This is the first indication that there are ways to play around something to show something isn't OP, which of course isn't conclusive.

On the other hand, the onus is on you as the person who made the balance issue to prove that something is imbalanced, not the respondents. If people aren't convinced by your argument, they can say that. It's not up to them to prove you wrong.

[hastaga]

Yea, I did clearly list out reasons why DAs shouldn't be able to do that right? Like, they aren't anti melee, they aren't designed/meant to be anti melee, and able to toss nade at their feet is giving them an unfair edge in their anti-melee retreat approach

The way Asmon argued against me was very 'simple'; he basically disregarded all the points i've listed by saying that "others/we have a way to play around it, so it's okay". In other words, he' said nothing productive to contributes to the discussion, unhealthy even.

I was merely pressing him to say something that's more helpful than empty words that meant nothing more than "Oh, I can handle that!"

[Codex]

Well then say that instead of coming off as aggressive.

Like it or not your posting style is currently riling people up.

[Vapor]

The issue at hand is a matter of game design and not balance, so I don't think this is the right forum for this discussion. I mean I don't think grenade spiking makes DAs OP, it's just anti-fun. Though like I said before the problem is more the ridiculous damage of grenades than spiking itself