A few wargears that I want to talk about

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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egewithin
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A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby egewithin » Fri 02 Oct, 2015 9:06 pm

Not the best time if we think new patch is far ready, but lets discuss some stuff here.

Techmarine / Artificer Armor
A poor wargear that loosing to Bionics. It gives you 200 health and 3 regen but for what? Why do I want Techmarine to be that tanks if he is not in melee combat? that 200 more health can be still focus fired down, just takes a few more seconds. If melee, why not getting Bionics? Also, much expensive against Bionics. All health and regen I really need can be used from Bionics so loosing to Bionics here.

What about the mines he builds? I want to compare with Mek Boy mines in this point. I do not care Techmarine mines does 5 times of Mek mines ( 150 against 30 ), I want them to hit enemy infantry and TechM mines can rarely hit enemys. Even if you place them in a very tight coridoor, enemy infanty can still miss the mines and that is annoying. In short, TechM mines are useless. What about making them just like Mek Boy's mines? Does less damage but throws 4 - 5 of them in the same time to an area ( with the animation of throwing Orbs ) so you can build a mine field. That will help to Techmarine's defensive purpose in big team games, in 1v1 maps eather. What do you think about it?

Mek Boy / Dakka Dakka Dakka
What is the point of getting this weapon? It does not doing a good damage even. Just a big shoota but not very effective. Can any Mek players explain this wargear to me?

Lictor Alpha / Corrosive Claws
I sitll can't find any reasons to get this weapon. Even Toxic Miasma looks much useful than this weapon and I am planning to use ToxMias now. This weapon is too weak against all other LA weapons. I mean ; Feeder Tendrils are crazy because they are doing self heal with a very short cooldown, Scything Talons are mad because they are doing very high power melee damage and suppression on click, ToxMas is crazy because you can chase down every infantry with it. What is that weapon for? What is that 20% damage increase? How much useful it is compared against other weapons.

I don't know what to say from now on here, I think it is very obious. This weapon needs a rework so we can save it from being a wrong designed and forsaken weapon.

Chaos Lord / Pretty much ever armor.
I am going to give a few situations to make this part of the threat much understandable.

Lets take Lord Commisar and his armors. You get Carapice so he can be tanky. It gives you big health and regen. You get Jacket for Inspire Teror ability. Armor gives you the ability and a small health but not even worth to mind. You get Bionic Eye for a better InspCorg. The armor is giving you these and giving more energy so you can still have a little more tankyness.

Lets take Sorcorer armors. You get each of them for their abilitys. The armors are not giving anything more interesting but their abilitys.

It is time for the Chaos Lord now. Why his all armors makes him tanky at same amounts? I am getting Harness of Rage to make him tanky. And I get Armor of the Inferno for the ability it gives. Why ınferno gives more health than the armor that I want to make him tanky? I mean, where is the logic?

And what is the purpose of Mantle of Hate? Gives you a big packet of health, which is still more than the tankyness armor, and gives an ability to make and enemy model to fly on air for a short duration, heal CL for a bit compared to his health and make a very small damage to enemy commander. Even his ability looks useless. Yes, you throw away an enemy hero who can come back again, good job! It is very weak compared to other throwing abilitys of other heroes, you know what am I talking about. I see two things here; decreasing health buff of Inferno and a rework on Mantle of Hate. What do you guys think about it?
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Crewfinity
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 02 Oct, 2015 9:57 pm

I think you're undervaluing several of test wargears by quite a bit.

techmarine artifice armor
Hp regen is a big deal, having 3 hp/s and 200 extra health on a ranged hero really lets them function more independently, and they get much harder to force off without devoting a lot of resources to it. Proximity mines are also quite good. Yeah the mek gets 5 instead of one, but a unit would have to hit all 5 to take the damage that one techmarine mine can do, and his can be placed with precision such that they can be much more effective. Also functions quite well as a vehicle snare. When you consider that the mek pays 100/20 for his mines, paying 10/5 extra for 200 health, 3 hp/s regen, and being able to place it manually artificer armor seems like an amazing deal.

mek dakka dakka dakka
Paying 100/20 for a dps increase of around 40 percent and a range increase of 3 is fair pricing for a teleporting hero, look at the wse targeters. This weapon makes the mek into a real threat to backcapping squads and really allows him to put a lot of pressure on the map by contesting scouts or DA or other lone squads on the periphery of the map.

chaos lord armor
When it comes to tanky heroes, health regen has a higher value than a flat hp boost. You already have a large health pool, so further increases are not as significant as the staying power that the regen gives.
An example of this principle:
You have a hero with 1000 health, enemy has 50 dps available.
Upgrade A gives 300 hp and 1 hp/s regen, upgrade B gives 100 hp and 3 hp/s regen
With no upgrades you die in 20 seconds, with A you die in 27 seconds, with B you die in 25.5 seconds.
Essentially the same amount of tankiness versus constant dps. However, when you consider that with upgrade B you essentially get an extra 200 health every minute and a half compared to A, it's easy to see that the regen does more by allowing your hero to apply constant pressure and sustain than a heath buff allows for a marginal increase in linebreaking performance. Basically, with upgrade A you get less than 20% more health, but upgrade b has 200% more regen.

On to specifics. The harness of rage, beyond giving the most health regen, also gives back energy per hit, which can be used with the bubble shield to act as a 25 hp heal per hit(icon of khorne gives 15 at level 1) for himself, and he also supports bloodletters from khorne shrines. When used with dark halo it's well worth it, and is his most tanky build.
With dark halo and harness of rage you have 1100 hp and 2.5 hp/s regen with another 500 hp from his shield, and also 25 effective health gain on hit.

With armor of the inferno and icon of khorne you have 1300 hp and 1 hp/s regen with about 20 health gain on hit.


Mantle of hate gives you a really strong control ability that's very flexible. Can be used to interrupt support commanders, snipe squad leaders, and generally disrupt yor opponents game plan. Add the health gain from the ability and the extra tankiness from the armor and it's quite strong.
Last edited by Crewfinity on Fri 02 Oct, 2015 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 02 Oct, 2015 9:58 pm

In short.

The extra regen you get from artificer armour matters a lot in cover to cover fights. Also helps you with any beacon plays.
The mines will also force a detector from your enemy. He can't just go around the map capping without the threat of being damaged by a mine and then finished of by you, or get squad wiped by retreating over a mine. (Can be especially hilarious versus mass warp btw)

More daka on a ranged teleporting commander. Good at bleeding units.

Corrosive claws can be used like other "target priority" abilities, (Mark Target, Doom, ...)
Hit once with your LA and focus your damage on that squad.

The Chaos Lords armours all have a clear role.
Harness of Rage synergises well with raptors, bloodletters, ... or can make him tanky in combination with his halo (possibly with claws).
Armour of the Inferno is a great anti blob tool, can also be used to clear building, destroy light structures (turrets) or disrupt blobs / setups.
Mantle of Hate is great to either hard stun single entities (lead members of squads, the 1 missile launcher in the squad, sub commanders, ...)
and in case of single entities even straight up kill them by focus fire.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 02 Oct, 2015 10:45 pm

I don't have much direct experience with the other items, but I used to main techmarine before I stopped playing SM. The extra HP and regen goes a long way when your techmarine is in cover. Shooting fights from cover tend to be a matter of attrition, and 3hp/sec with some extra hp means your opponent is going to have to devote more attention to focusing down your hero.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Black Relic » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 5:54 am

on the note about mines. I think if techmarine mines could still detonate even when spotted would completely change how this wargear is looked at. I can see a player running at Sm for melee combat then see a mine and they would HAVE to micro around the mine to avoid its damage and suppression. Or have the trigger for the mine have a larger radius than it does already.
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Asmon
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Asmon » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 11:48 am

Crewfinity wrote:I think you're undervaluing several of test wargears by quite a bit.

Whale of text.


That was the kind and polite answer. I'd have just said L2P. The only relevant thing from OP is that LA has 4 weapon upgrades, including one that is not overpowered.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Codex » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 12:07 pm

Just fyi, I'm going to start taking a harder line on L2P NOOB responses on the Balance Discussions. Our community has been seen by various people as rather unwelcoming, and let's be honest we want this community to expand and not contract.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Sub_Zero » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 9:28 pm

Techmarine / Artificer Armor

I do think there is an internal problem with this armor. Mines are easily countered. Powerful sweep and mark target aren't so. Yet there is a clear distinction between these two - for tankiness, for damage. What about artificier? It is also about tankiness but with an ability that is way less attractive. I would be fine if it remained this way - bionics for melee prowess (+melee skill and melee damage), artificier for health and health regeneration, signum for ranged damage and range. Now if I want to tank (both in melee or in cover, it matters not) I will equip the cheaper option with a more reliable ability, if I want some action with the axe I equip bionics and if I want a conventional techmarine damage dealer I get signum. Slugga boyz and shoota boyz are against me. They (shoota boyz with their leader) detect mines. I am screwed. With bionics not so much. Guardians and banshees against me. They (guardians with their leader) detect mines. I am screwed. With bionics not so much.

Get mines to prompt a detector purchase? Pfft, like it will cost him more and he will only benefit from detection. Leaders that detect bring something more than just detection and COMPLETELY counter your tactic (ever seen how this stupid game lets everybody walk over detected mines? annoying BS)

And even if you manage to lure something to a mine, is there a guarantee that the explosion will hit all models? Not really.

To conclude that I see the problem in this armour only as a internal one.

Mek Boy / Dakka Dakka Dakka

I don't know why it exists. Maybe to allow some aggressive builds when you teleport in and chase after ranged units with electric armor activated. But wait a second you can't chase properly anymore due to that needless speed impairment. Bravo!

I am always happy when an incompetent mek prefers this gun over that very powerful suppression gun. In 95% scenarios the second option is better than the first one.

Chaos Lord / Pretty much ever armor.

I think that you are correct that balance between these armors are fucked up. The one that gives let the galaxy burn is easily the best option in 95% cases. I agree that it should give as minimal health buffs as possible. And I agree that the one that gives that ability to make one thing fly should be buffed. It should lift ANY target but vehicle, its range should be increased (20 is a joke) and the duration could use an additional second.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby egewithin » Sun 04 Oct, 2015 7:42 am

First of all, thank you for all your opinions. I changed my mind about most of them. I repeat ; '' most '' of them. I am planning to use Artif for TechM for a while it seems because you said some cool / annoying tactics about it for example. But, I decided to change my questions into a better way.

TechM Artificer
Mines are hitting so rarely, I don't even want to use them. It may hit a few times and it may have better damage, but all we want is knockback on steppping on it and suppression, the damage however is not so important. It can have 5 times damage of Mek mines or 500, if enemy is not stepping on them, it does not effect anything I'm afraid. I only suggested to being able to throw more mines, or at least placing them one by one but with a smaller energy cost and a smaller damage too.

CL armors
Sub_Zero made a better point than me.
Sub_Zero wrote:I think that you are correct that balance between these armors are fucked up. The one that gives let the galaxy burn is easily the best option in 95% cases.

I gave my examples at the top to say '' Every heroes armors are different from each other, but CL armors are so similar... '' I know hp regen and self heal are better than having big health pool already, thank you for reminding of cource but, take a look at these armors. They are so similar to each other. Matnle of Hate can still became a better, much better armor with a few reworks. I didn't even said the health buff of Armor of the Inferno must be decreased ( which I should ), I just wanted to make these armor different from each other.

Good points on Dakka Dakka Dakka and LA weapon, I will follow your guide here.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Asmon » Sun 04 Oct, 2015 6:43 pm

I used to play TM a lot and mines are definitively good in 1v1. No one forces you to plant them at the main shocking points. They are extremely useful to deny capturing at far points and especially your natural VP. Your problem is that you plant them where the enemy goes and look at the same time, hence quicker reactions and more mines destroyed at range. Ofc your opponent will watch out for mines as his army moves forward and fights. Ofc a mine at the central VP only wins you 3s.

Plant mines pretty much anywhere else and all of a sudden your enemy cannot ninja cap at ease, and sometimes not at all. You know that feeling when more than half of the points in the map are yours for 10 minutes? When enemy melee units cannot chase your retreating units without blowing up and getting suppressed? This is what mines can do for you.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Sub_Zero » Mon 05 Oct, 2015 3:45 pm

When enemy melee units cannot chase your retreating units without blowing up and getting suppressed? This is what mines can do for you.

You know that the high damage of these mines decimate your stuff as well? Mek boyz' mines are for this purpose (low damage but the same suppression). You never want these damaging mines to be anywhere close to your units. Don't misinform the guy!
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Asmon » Tue 06 Oct, 2015 7:44 pm

How can they damage your own units ? Enemies are chasing you, they are behind your squads, they are not running neck to neck. Oh perhaps you will suffer a slight damage due to AoE but if you do then it's still less than what you'd have taken without the mine, since it meant the enemy was close enough to land hits.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Sub_Zero » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 9:12 am

If I didn't stop using the TM long ages ago I would give you some replays when it happened (one situation comes to mind when banshees were still nuts and zealously chased after my tacs). That is exactly neck to neck situations when your unit just starts retreating and hasn't gained an increased speed yet.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Teyken » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 1:06 pm

First time poster here,

I play 1v1 solely (and also only watch 1v1 on VOD's) I heard once that 1v1 balance is not prioritized so this might be completely irrelevant.

I play IG and my friend plays CS, he plays exclusively chaos lord and I feel like he completely destroys me, the galaxy burn ability can easily force off my whole army and even wipe a few squads with a single cast. I know I could get better at map awareness but I still feel he is impossible to control, the 'let the galaxy burn' has nice range, lingering damage and gives him a health buff. It seems to me that the ability is just better than what is available to even squishy caster champions. Combine that high health, immunity to both suppression and knock back and very good options for his other two slots Galaxy Burn just seems crazy.

Let the Galaxy burn
30-120 flame damage + knock back
3 flame damage pr second for 12 seconds
Radius 10 pr shots (they stack it seems?)
45 range
60 second cooldown

Compared to the Chaos Sorcerers warpfire that seems very powerful for a guy that's very strong and all but immune to CC.

Tbh might just be me being salty or a bad player but I do have a strong sense that it is simply too strong and maybe a bit weird for a melee tank.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 22 Feb, 2017 2:40 pm

Teyken wrote:First time poster here,

I play 1v1 solely (and also only watch 1v1 on VOD's) I heard once that 1v1 balance is not prioritized so this might be completely irrelevant.


Not sure who told you that but 1v1 balance has the priority over everything else even though at the moment it's not as widely played as 3s.

I play IG and my friend plays CS, he plays exclusively chaos lord and I feel like he completely destroys me, the galaxy burn ability can easily force off my whole army and even wipe a few squads with a single cast. I know I could get better at map awareness but I still feel he is impossible to control, the 'let the galaxy burn' has nice range, lingering damage and gives him a health buff. It seems to me that the ability is just better than what is available to even squishy caster champions. Combine that high health, immunity to both suppression and knock back and very good options for his other two slots Galaxy Burn just seems crazy.


CL is an extremely good hero vs IG and other swarmy/low HP races, it is normal there are however ways to avoid it, making him cast LTGB (let the galaxy burn) and then retreating your gm > executing them to stop it works great, otherwise and more commonly a chimera will deal with the problem, you let him cast it and then enter the chimera, move out of the charred ground and exit, alternitavely you can just keep your units split in order to not give your opponent a good chance at using his ability.


Compared to the Chaos Sorcerers warpfire that seems very powerful for a guy that's very strong and all but immune to CC.


You have to keep in mind warp fire can be casted anywhere on the map as long as there is sight, in other words you can use it in your opponent retreat path or base to kill off low hp units, the sorc itself it a controlling hero with a myriad of abilities to CC both melee and ranged blobs so that's a whole other story as well.

Tbh might just be me being salty or a bad player but I do have a strong sense that it is simply too strong and maybe a bit weird for a melee tank.


May be maybe not, the CL is indeed among the easier heroes to play even at high level and does indeed give a micro advantage to whoever uses it (among others like wb,ht,wl,fc etc) since you don't have to micro him as much as support heroes and basically don't have to go mad playing the game, this is also why it performs way way better in low level games and has almost always won the beginner tournaments.
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Re: A few wargears that I want to talk about

Postby Teyken » Sun 12 Mar, 2017 2:49 am

Thank you for your feedback, now I don't feel like an idiot for being run over by the big guy time and time again.

Just have to practice more then :)

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