Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Crewfinity
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Crewfinity » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 5:22 pm

Cyris wrote:I think psy-purg needs a small nerf to it's burst duration. The amount of damage 1 salvo will do is a bit too much spike damage to a vehicle that drives by them for just a second. I also reaaaaly think they should have a minor weapon cooldown to make them susceptible to suppression.


its more or less like autocannon havocs :P
just with 60 dps instead of 45 and 44 range instead of 55. plus their dps decreases as models die. might be a potential problem but i think its fine.


canticle changes look freaking awesome. less internal competition for using Dark Ex, and opens up a LOT of possibilities in T1. IST sarge's might actually be worth it for grenade disruptions every 10 seconds :D
and ops and purgations as well, GK's ability to hold a firing line should be massively improved next patch. moving purgs to T1 really fits imo, removes a lot of their current problems with early melee and vehicle rushes. Ops could use more nerfs imo but its a good start.

nid changes look really cool.
awesome work from the mod team :D
can't wait to get my laptop working again and get back in the fight
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Atlas » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 5:52 pm

I saw only 1 LA nerf. -1 unsubscribed, Master Forest will be displeased.

Jk seems interesting, we'll see :D
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Forestradio » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 6:55 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:P.S: Forestradio will be pleased with these Nid changes 8-)

Atlas wrote:Master Forest will be displeased.

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i am laughing so hard right now for reasons that it would not be appropriate to reveal
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Cyris
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Cyris » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:01 pm

Crewfinity wrote:its more or less like autocannon havocs :P
just with 60 dps instead of 45 and 44 range instead of 55. plus their dps decreases as models die. might be a potential problem but i think its fine.


Fair points!

There are a couple of reasons I think the psy-purg goes over the top of a setup auto-cannons, and why I think burst duration is the right place to alter them. These are largely in the context of their ability to ambush and spike down vehicles. a lot of it has to do with the benefits of their firing pattern:
-The 1 or 2 seconds (havok/hwt respectivly) of down time the other cannons have is a pretty big deal. If a vehicle is within the firing arc of a Psy for 3.1 seconds, it will receive 2 full bursts, which is a lot of extra damage. The 1/2 extra seconds the others give, going up to 4/5 seconds between volleys, is a really big deal. 2x damage is no joke when 2 volleys can kill some vehicles, and 3 kill quite a few. All 3 weapons have a 3s burst duration, but the time between the begining of these bursts is 3/4/5s respectivly. Since one burst starts, the whole payload will hit the same unit, that time window is a REALLY big deal when trying to save a vehicle from death.
-This time between shots translates into 33% more dps then havoks and 66% more then hwt. So psy cannons have the same spike, but better dps and easier ability to hit the 2nd burst.
-The setup/teardown time on Psys makes them muuuuuch more capable of chasing/hunting. Compare .6/.4 to 3/3 and 4/3 (setup/teardown)!
-I find in a suprising number of situations that the 45 range of the psy-cannons is better then the 55 of setups. Crazy you say? The trick is the timing of the clear vision buff. You can maneuver psycannons to a range where they start firing at your target with the 45 range, then activate clear vision as they move away to get that 2nd volley in. With setup teams, they fire at range 55 (giving themselves away) and a smart enemy will back up their vehicle. As soon as the first psy volley starts, you are very likely gonna hit the 2nd one too.
-This gets into the whole "composition" aspect a bit, but mindblades and WATH combo amazingly well with psy-purgs. Speed boost on a .6s setup team allows for some super good rushdown, and the mind-blades means that if you get off the 2nd volley, you're dealing 450 damage to a vehicle.

The reason I am focusing on the burst duration instead of time between volleys is because I think the constant stream of fire from the Pry cannons is both unique and nice aesthetically. It's important to note that reducing the burst duration wouldn't alter the dps in a sustained fight, just allow more time to get the hell away.

By contrast giving it a weapon cooldown would decrease the dps, though I'm less certain that it needs it. A .1 cooldown would likely not change much except give it vulnerability to suppression. Like I mentioned in the LRR comments, I don't like "hidden" abilities. Psy-purgs eing immune to suppression (MOK Havoks too fwiw) seems like a weird bonus that is never explained. Only players with understandings of the minutia of the game would even suspect it to be true.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:12 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:
saltychipmunk wrote:Yeah the loss of snare is pretty brutal since nids have no real long range anti vehicle options. they have a ton of mid ranged stuff and a ton of melee stuff but all of that is attached to your standard infantry / walker movement speeds which top out around 6 for ranged units (RA) and 6.5 + an active ability for melee units ( gene stealers)

Venom Brood? They have range 44 as well.


Not very good chasers in practice without a helping hand from a snare. battle tanks do much more spike damage and are also considerably faster.

plus they are are also extremely brittle ... and they pop when they die. pretty much the last thing i would want to use them for is chasing a battle tank that is actively shooting at them.... well not without help.


Cyris wrote:-The setup/teardown time on Psys makes them muuuuuch more capable of chasing/hunting. Compare .6/.4 to 3/3 and 4/3 (setup/teardown)!
-I find in a suprising number of situations that the 45 range of the psy-cannons is better then the 55 of setups. Crazy you say? The trick is the timing of the clear vision buff. You can maneuver psycannons to a range where they start firing at your target with the 45 range, then activate clear vision as they move away to get that 2nd volley in. With setup teams, they fire at range 55 (giving themselves away) and a smart enemy will back up their vehicle. As soon as the first psy volley starts, you are very likely gonna hit the 2nd one too.
.


I dont think that is particularly fair to setup teams. They aren’t supposed to chase anything. Heck I would argue that they should not realistically kill anything on their own either. They are a deterrent a do not enter sign with teeth. any losses accrued to a setup team is the fault of the idiot wandering into their kill zone.

And to that end having a longer range is more important than having chase potential or even better dps. being able to hit something with those weapon types while that something cant retaliate is pretty much worth not being able to give chase.

So shooting at 55 and giving away your position is kind of a selling point As it often prevents an opponent from advancing on your position without a beefy force.


killing vehicles is a job better left to snare av combos and av traps.
Last edited by saltychipmunk on Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Asmon
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Asmon » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:14 pm

That carnifex charge is going to bug out so much. It will make Thornback actually better against its natural counters ie tanks, but weaker against infantry armies, which sounds weird.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:26 pm

Asmon wrote:That carnifex charge is going to bug out so much. It will make Thornback actually better against its natural counters ie tanks, but weaker against infantry armies, which sounds weird.


Yeah i don’t get it either.. what does the charge give the fex ( assuming it works) 150 melee heavy damage and .. possible 2 -3 swipes of his talons before what ever he was fighting gets away or otherwise reacts.

so 550 - 750 melee heavy? i feel sorry for fire prisms but i don’t think that will out right kill any other battle tank ( assuming hp upgrades). It also seems over powered in a sense if it weren’t for the fact that like Asmon said ... it probably will bug out a ton.

It might be funny having melee fex snipers.... that solo kill tanks
Last edited by saltychipmunk on Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:27 pm

Cyris wrote:Any zoan nerf I'm in favor of. Losing snare hurts, but they are still a nuts good unit. I didn't think the passive stacked?!?!! Well, it damn well shouldn't so good change!
Oh, it stacked, pop capped army of Zoans, can't even hurt them.

Looks like I should pick up Eldar in 1v1, sigh :(
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Caeltos » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:37 pm

I went through the Carnifex Thornback with a few, and I had to explain it abit more.

- Carnifex Charge range is not as significant as it is now. It's going to be less less range 40 (think around the range of 30-35).
- The Carnifex Charge can be counterplayed by utilizing LoS which results in the Charge cancelling out.
- The Carnifex Charge has a set duration. If it exceeds the duration, the charge be cancelled and the Carnifex stops dead in it's tracks.

The charge is meant to be a high-risk vs high reward potency, it can be used to punish overextending vehicles, or players not paying attention. The charge becoming this way, also removes the "get out of jail" free-card aspect, and now is now really an "OFFENSIVE" ability, rather than multi-tude of primarily a flee ability.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Cyris » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:38 pm

Does the charge "auto-track" / path around collision? Or will clipping a wall end it (before the max range)?

Is there an FX on the target that is being charged?
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Floid » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 9:51 pm

I'm eager to test the changes! Good job as ever.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:04 pm

Caeltos wrote:- Carnifex Charge range is not as significant as it is now. It's going to be less less range 40 (think around the range of 30-35).
- The Carnifex Charge can be counterplayed by utilizing LoS which results in the Charge cancelling out.
- The Carnifex Charge has a set duration. If it exceeds the duration, the charge be cancelled and the Carnifex stops dead in it's tracks.

The charge becoming this way, also removes the "get out of jail" free-card aspect, and now is now really an "OFFENSIVE" ability, rather than multi-tude of primarily a flee ability.


This is a brilliant change - I think there are other units with similar abilities that are abused in this way. If you guys change them as well that would have a real improving effect on the gameplay.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Interdiction » Tue 10 Nov, 2015 1:33 am

Is the new Carnifex ability just going to be called "charge?" If not I was thinking it could be named something like "Engine of Destruction" or something cool and more to the Tyranid flavor.:P
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby DandyFrontline » Tue 10 Nov, 2015 9:45 am

Interdiction wrote:Is the new Carnifex ability just going to be called "charge?" If not I was thinking it could be named something like "Engine of Destruction" or something cool and more to the Tyranid flavor.:P


Nope, it's gonna be renamed to "supermegaOPkickassdestroyer9000"
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Kentation » Tue 10 Nov, 2015 9:58 am

Interdiction wrote:Is the new Carnifex ability just going to be called "charge?"


Caeltos wrote:* Carnifex 'Charge' has been renamed 'Tremble charge(?)'


As always, everything is pretty much subject to change.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Interdiction » Tue 10 Nov, 2015 3:25 pm

DandyFrontline wrote:
Nope, it's gonna be renamed to "supermegaOPkickassdestroyer9000"


lel

So does everyone like the new tic changes on the Chaos side of things?
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 10 Nov, 2015 8:55 pm

i think slaughter should be changed to be an ability that gets charged by dealing damage. pretty much like ATSKNF but on the other side of things. could be cool, no?
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Cyris » Tue 10 Nov, 2015 9:56 pm

Crewfinity wrote:i think slaughter should be changed to be an ability that gets charged by dealing damage. pretty much like ATSKNF but on the other side of things. could be cool, no?


Ooooh, I like this! Very thematic.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Aetherion » Tue 10 Nov, 2015 11:51 pm

WATH by default doesn't buff speed anymore, does the improved version by the sword still buff speed?

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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Tex » Wed 11 Nov, 2015 6:07 am

would be cool for slaughter, but I'd rather just stick with a mechanic that is working and shorten the initial ability timer by a little bit so that you don't have to buy your AC instantly in T2 if you plan on using slaughter more than once meaningfully.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby KanKrusha » Wed 11 Nov, 2015 7:01 am

I just had an idea. I saw some people complaining that eldar does not have access to stun and mind war does not suppress unsuppressable heroes or units.

How about reworking mind war so that it causes the same effects as suppression ie slow and reduced reload but by doing that directly rather than through courage damage? That way unsuppressable heroes would still be affected.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Caeltos » Wed 11 Nov, 2015 11:56 am

Aetherion wrote:WATH by default doesn't buff speed anymore, does the improved version by the sword still buff speed?

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The speed buff should still be there on the Nemesis Sword upgrade. :)
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 11 Nov, 2015 12:47 pm

KanKrusha wrote:I just had an idea. I saw some people complaining that eldar does not have access to stun and mind war does not suppress unsuppressable heroes or units.
I also saw some people complaining about Tyranids being UP .... :)
Eldar actually has a stun, the farseer drop. And they have plenty of crowd controlling abilities, they even have roots, like the wse entangling web, anti grav nade, etc. The farseer has gravity blades which can be even better than a stun as you can't even retreat out of it.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby PhatE » Wed 11 Nov, 2015 12:54 pm

The burna change was sorely needed imo, good change.

As nice as the weirdboy change is I don't think many people still get the weirdboy or are good enough to use his actual abilities to their potential. However, for those who do and/or are, this is pretty good.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby linkthestink » Wed 11 Nov, 2015 8:47 pm

So not that I'm whining or complaining, but does anyone know when this patch will be released? I'm getting super excited to play it. I'm very grateful for all the content creators and balancing that you guys do.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Caeltos » Wed 11 Nov, 2015 8:49 pm

Not sure, but it might take a while due to me being abit of a screw-up on the developing client side.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby ytimk » Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:10 am

Noob spectator thoughts here:

Caeltos wrote:Space Marines
* Techmarine Venerable Dreadnought cost increased from 600/50/350 to 600/100/350

Split the difference in the short term to test and only increase the power to 75 if people think this makes it too expensive upfront?

Caeltos wrote:Grey Knights
* Brother-Captain Teleport-Pack has been removed

I understand the community concerns about the overperformance of BroCap, but getting rid of teleport pack seems a bit hasty to me. Move it to T3 and/or cost increase first to see how that changes things? I don't mean to critique your visions for the game, but tanky BroCap teleporting out of fucking nowhere was a very unique thing: by T3 he might use it more defensively based on the prevalence of vehicles and heavy ranged fire? Combined with proposed WATH changes no longer increasing his speed.....

Crossing fingers for Psychic Lash changes/buffs to see BroCap bring enemies to him :p

Caeltos wrote:Eldar
* Fire Dragon armor changed from infantry_fire_resist to heavy_infantry
Imperial Guard
* Kasrkin armor type changed from infantry to heavy_infantry

*scratches chin*
Hmmm, what's he planning.........
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 12 Nov, 2015 4:59 pm

ytimk wrote:I understand the community concerns about the overperformance of BroCap, but getting rid of teleport pack seems a bit hasty to me. Move it to T3 and/or cost increase first to see how that changes things? I don't mean to critique your visions for the game, but tanky BroCap teleporting out of fucking nowhere was a very unique thing: by T3 he might use it more defensively based on the prevalence of vehicles and heavy ranged fire? Combined with proposed WATH changes no longer increasing his speed.....

Crossing fingers for Psychic Lash changes/buffs to see BroCap bring enemies to him :p


The guy is already extremely beefy and immune to suppression. A commander that powerful teleporting out of nowhere was very unique in this game because an implicit part of this games design is that no one unit can have everything. Space marine force commanders and chaos sorcerers can get the teleport ability, because they are wearing normal armour and are subject all forms of crowd control. The brother captain has a whopping 1k hitpoints, suppression immunity, a speed buff, and a teleport option. It made for the kind of unidirectional fun where only the guy using him was having a good time.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 12 Nov, 2015 5:12 pm

ytimk wrote:
Caeltos wrote:Eldar
* Fire Dragon armor changed from infantry_fire_resist to heavy_infantry

*scratches chin*
Hmmm, what's he planning.........

Fire Dragons lost their passive dmg reduction and thus need something to compensate. It also allows for more counterplay than just ability knockback and loads of suppression. You can now equip plasma weapons and go to town on them.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Black Relic » Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:07 pm

Caeltos wrote:* Canticle of Absolution no longer denies enemy abilities from being used
* Canticle of Absolution energy restoration reduced from 2.5 e/s to 1.25 e/s
* Canticle of Absolution now greatly accelerates ability cooldown by 3x when inside it. (This ability will not effect Super Heavy Infantry units, such as Terminators(of all kind), Paladins, Avatar and etc)


I have been looking at this alot. And I feel like this wont amount to much in 1v1 unless the player invests on numerous SS squads or have multiple IST with weapon upgrades. And this ability will have to be used in the beginning of the fight and before the squad's abilities are used (or they won't benefit from the ability reduction. I know this caz I made an ability that similar to this). Now I am not saying its useless but its going to be even more niche now.

I think adding to this wargear and keeping counterplay aspect of the ability is a good idea. Not saying the enemy shouldn't used abilities. But make it costly to use abilities while under the effect of CoA.

An example being. Energy cost of enemy abilities goes up when under the effects of CoA. When their abilities are used while under the effect of CoA their cooldown for their abilities are increased by 150%.


I can also see triple ist being abused with this change. I think their abilities should have an energy cost so help mitigate that.
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