Patch 2.5 (WIP)

[egewithin]

Why would the predator excel at AV?

Are you serious Riku? After all years with SM?

[HiveSpirit]

Its just his auto reply, he did it earlier today aswell:

Why should they do 125% damage vs HI? °_O

Why Riku, Why

[Dark Riku]

Why would the predator excel at AV?

Are you serious Riku? After all years with SM?

Compared to all the other tanks, I'm dead serious. This was also discussing the vanilla state tanks btw.

Why should they do 125% damage vs HI? °_O

Why Riku, Why

Give a good reason then why spore mines should be awesome versus everything? They do their intended job just fine in the state that they are.

[Epostle]

Buff Nobz plz... when the whole army shoots at them, they lose a model. Nobz don't need to lose models because dey gotz dakka!!!

[lolzarz]

Buff Nobz plz... when the whole army shoots at them, they lose a model. Nobz don't need to lose models because dey gotz dakka!!!

Of course they should lose models when the whole army shoots at them. Why the hell aren't you using frenzy?

[Epostle]

Buff frenzy to plz k thx!

[egewithin]

Buff frenzy to plz k thx!

Why are you talking like you are in a Whatsupp chat?

[Forestradio]

[Narcolepsy]

Disburbing indeed.

[saltychipmunk]

as anyone who has played mekboy for any period of time can tell you , not a damn thing needs to be changed on looted tanks.

That being said I kind of do think nobs need to be a little cheaper. In the current meta it is much easier to deal with them than their rather massive asking price + upgrades suggests. Which by extension means they lost some of that universal potency that justify their rather huge costs. In terms of stats i think they are fine. just not nearly worth that ridiculous 200 power investment when totally upgraded . that has got to change.

as for spore mines. they are already one of the most ridiculous units in the game if you play them right you can get multiple squad wipes or at the very least get a 500 hp non suppressible cheap as dirt meat shield. they are quite possibly the most tactically versatile starting unit in the game.

also buff the hp of flashgits already or put them back at 15 pop because they do not have the constitution of nobs and should be ashamed to be classified as such with those dinky hp numbers.

[HiveSpirit]

@Riku
Sporemines cant really hurt heavy infantry though. And its not like its viable dmg vs vehicals, super heavy infantry either. ITS A "GRENADE".
Spore mine detonation doesnt do "up to 260" grenade damage", thats why grenades doesnt do 1.0 dmg vs vehicals.
Spore mines doesnt do weapon knockback but SpMi has suppression, the suppression isnt a given if the opponent is in cover or under buff, but the knock back most times are in t1. Well, grenades has a longer cooldown..
Spore mines has a cost to it per usage/ isnt given that they will hit at all because they get killed before the detonation.

Both are "grenades", both should be effective vs infantry and heavy infantry. Spore mines are from another faction, some minor differention is ok between the factions. Grenades doesnt cost req/power continiously, doesnt have hp or require constant micro because it comes with a unit. At the same time, SpMi can choose to be somewhere else than their "grenade throwers", but is possibly slower. Spore mines speed 5 , scouts 6,5 , dire avengers 5,5 with possiblility to FoF. DA's and scouts grenades deals all the damage directly, spore mines would have to survive and wait 20-25 seconds until it does full potential dmg. Thats 20 seconds wait time After youve reached/ chased up your opponent/ target. Spore mines full potential dmg is 225dmg vs like anything. Grenades does 65dmg vs vehicals. If SpMi does more than 1-2 detonations vs vehicals which normaly are faster, they darn earn that extra dmg because the other player is ignorant or plays bad.

Its not uncommon that 2-3 spores dies before getting of their detonations, thats 40-60req/2-3pwr waste each time, to get of 2-3 detonations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, another super unit, Nobs, fully upgraded 750/200p, just like an upgraded Carnifex. But nobs only costs 500/100 to get out on the field though. Carnifex should should cost like that aswell.. Really, how often do you see vanilla Carnifex beeing used?.. And whys that?.. It would be a nice addition to lower the vanilla fex cost because people would start using unupgraded fexes as viable playable units.

So, terminators be like 650-720/100-170.. Bah, Normal terminators upgrades could very well have increased costs... Why not give orks and nids a global option to call down nobs for like 400/75 and fex 400/100..

Whats this shizzleing about "you cant compare prices straight off"... what? If other factions stuff cost more than space marines, then SM will pull out t3 units before the other player? And thats an advantage.. One could say, well if nid and orks didnt hold the map control vs SM its their fault.. But dont we play on equal footing?

LRR has a bunch of everything, the cost, due to all options it has it could very well cost as much as a baneblade...
Vanilla fexes "arnt used" so they "will" be upgraded, so fexes costs 50 less req than the swarmlord.. Its not like carnifexes can switch between their upgraded weapons... Can they atleast get that?

-Coral, Why cant Fexes switch between weapons?
-Because that would be imba?
-No, because they are Special Muhreens Coral!

Ugh... I just get so tired of this..

[Crewfinity]

@Riku
Sporemines cant really hurt heavy infantry though. And its not like its viable dmg vs vehicals, super heavy infantry either. ITS A "GRENADE".
Spore mine detonation doesnt do "up to 260" grenade damage", thats why grenades doesnt do 1.0 dmg vs vehicals.
Spore mines doesnt do weapon knockback but SpMi has suppression, the suppression isnt a given if the opponent is in cover or under buff, but the knock back most times are in t1. Well, grenades has a longer cooldown..
Spore mines has a cost to it per usage/ isnt given that they will hit at all because they get killed before the detonation.

Both are "grenades", both should be effective vs infantry and heavy infantry. Spore mines are from another faction, some minor differention is ok between the factions. Grenades doesnt cost req/power continiously, doesnt have hp or require constant micro because it comes with a unit. At the same time, SpMi can choose to be somewhere else than their "grenade throwers", but is possibly slower. Spore mines speed 5 , scouts 6,5 , dire avengers 5,5 with possiblility to FoF. DA's and scouts grenades deals all the damage directly, spore mines would have to survive and wait 20-25 seconds until it does full potential dmg. Thats 20 seconds wait time After youve reached/ chased up your opponent/ target. Spore mines full potential dmg is 225dmg vs like anything. Grenades does 65dmg vs vehicals. If SpMi does more than 1-2 detonations vs vehicals which normaly are faster, they darn earn that extra dmg because the other player is ignorant or plays bad.

Its not uncommon that 2-3 spores dies before getting of their detonations, thats 40-60req/2-3pwr waste each time, to get of 2-3 detonations.

you can buy spore mines out the gate for 100/5 and use them to win early engagements or pressure all through T1. grenades require an investment and hit the field much later, giving spore mines equal damage to grenades would be nuts. they're already amazing as is, especially since they can be built from capillary towers.

LRR has a bunch of everything, the cost, due to all options it has it could very well cost as much as a baneblade...
Vanilla fexes "arnt used" so they "will" be upgraded, so fexes costs 50 less req than the swarmlord.. Its not like carnifexes can switch between their upgraded weapons... Can they atleast get that?

-Coral, Why cant Fexes switch between weapons?
-Because that would be imba?
-No, because they are Special Muhreens Coral!

Ugh... I just get so tired of this..

...you're kidding, right? are you seriously suggesting letting carnifexes switch from thornback to venom cannon to barbed strangler at will? no other tank can do that in the game. that would be off the walls crazy powerful, especially considering the nid economy, which is arguably the most robust in the game, especially now that without number lets you get 2 additional squads on the field for no req at all.

[saltychipmunk]

I always considered fexes rather overpriced for their initial buy in , most of the time it seems easier to just wait the extra minute or two and get the swarm lord.

As for crew's concern about the fex switching "at will" if i recall correctly all of the fex upgrades are pretty pricey and the fex itself is arguably the most expensive walker in the game. "At will" simply is not in the cards for that fella since he costs about the same as a super unit after taking any 1 upgrade. Still i dont think the fex needs to be able to switch weps.

the nid economy is far from robust after t1, they have notorious req issues after in t2+ since they have almost no power heavy t2 options and a TON of req heavy ones. They can also have pretty heavy upkeep, especially in armies that are warrior / synapse creature heavy . I am glad gaunts got that upgrade that makes them reinforce 2 at a time otherwise poor nids would req starved all the time.

I am also with hive in that I am not particularly a fan of the concept that you buy a unit for the upgrades rather than the unit itself. And the vanilla fex is hardly worth such a steep cost.

But seriously hive. spore mines are fine. in fact you only actually want them against swarmy races and wankers who camp buildings anyway. vs races like gk or space marines it is much more effective to go for a second horma and swarm the tac/strike / ist etc. They cant hurt heavy infantry much because heavy infantry have around half the models and double the base hp but that is an inherent advantage to low model squads. We can argue that being able to selectively ignore that advantage is bad for game balance.

[Crewfinity]

the nid economy is far from robust after t1, they have notorious req issues after in t2+ since they have almost no power heavy t2 options and a TON of req heavy ones. They can also have pretty heavy upkeep, especially in armies that are warrior / synapse creature heavy . I am glad gaunts got that upgrade that makes them reinforce 2 at a time otherwise poor nids would req starved all the time.

typical nid T2 build:
hormagaunts, 2 termagaunts, warriors, venom brood, zoanthrope, genestealers
76 population, 255 upkeep (with 150.45 acting) over 7 squads


typical SM T2 build:
2 scouts (1 sarge), tacs w sarge, devs, asm w sarge, librarian, dreadnought
93 population, 246 upkeep (with 172.05 acting) over 7 squads

typical ork T2 build:
2 shootas w nobz, sluggas w nob, stormboyz w nob, weirdboy, trukk, stikkbommaz
94 population, 229.5 upkeep (with 153 acting) over 7 squads

typical chaos T2 build:
2 tics w AC's, csm with AC, noise marines, havocs, bloodletters, bloodcrusher
92 population, 223.4 upkeep (with 151.8 acting) over 7 squads

typical eldar t2 build:
2 da w exarch, shees w exarch, autarch, shurican, falcon, warp spiders
90 population, 225.05 upkeep (with 150 acting) over 7 squads

typical IG t2 build:
2 guardsmen w leaders, catachans w leaders, HWT, chimera, sentinel, storm troopers
90 population, 191.46 upkeep (with 137.9 upkeep) over 7 squads

so even with a heavy T2, nids dont actually have that much upkeep relative to population when compared to other races, mostly because of how weird their population values work out. combined with the endless swarm and its easy to get to T3 and start pumping out T3 units, since you will still have extra population for it.

related to this: why are DA exarchs so cheap? only 2 population and 4.15 upkeep? thats less than a regular DA model... i feel like this should go up if they're staying in T1 for so cheap, and if DA costs are already going down.

[saltychipmunk]

aren't those *typical race builds* some what subjective?

from what i can tell the only reason why nids are winning in your numbers argument is because you purposefully omitted filling their full pop where as you easily do so with the other races , but even without adding in a final squad their total upkeep before factoring in acting upkeep is the highest at only 76 pop.

this implies that if you ever don't take advantage of the pop saving attributes of gaunts , say you lost one or something and buy a ravener or another t2 unit instead .. the upkeep would be right in the middle of the pack or even at the top end.

[HiveSpirit]

you can buy spore mines out the gate for 100/5 and use them to win early engagements or pressure all through T1. grenades require an investment and hit the field much later, giving spore mines equal damage to grenades would be nuts. they're already amazing as is, especially since they can be built from capillary towers.

It sounds like your saying spore mines doesnt die and arnt an investment, i think your very wrong there. If you are to preassure all through t1 with spore mines, that will be quite an investment. Its also an investment you just keep purchasing without "owning". DA's and scouts grenade, you do "own" those grenades once theyre purchased. What about after those early engagements out of the gate, how do they scale at then (when the opponent got greater ranged or melee)?

...you're kidding, right? are you seriously suggesting letting carnifexes switch from thornback to venom cannon to barbed strangler at will? no other tank can do that in the game. that would be off the walls crazy powerful, especially considering the nid economy, which is arguably the most robust in the game, especially now that without number lets you get 2 additional squads on the field for no req at all.

At will after theyre purchased, yea why not? Its not really like i can buy two carnifexes just for fun when the FRACKING VANILLA FEX COSTS 600/150?!
Just like any commander upgrade, you have to buy but can switch..
During the circumcision i think that could be something to consider, if vanilla fex were cheaper i probably wouldnt think or suggest this.

Do you really think its awesome to pod in two gaunt broods in t3? I assume the space marines are laughing their asses off, "dude... and he wasted 250red for gaunts Coral!", well accualy its pretty good and alot of free units and reinforcements... But its gaunts.. In T3?

The T2 nid globals are kinda a joke: Warrior Vanguard, Mycetic Spores and Spore Mines. What do space marine get?:
Drop Pod | T1 350 100
Call in a Drop Pod that spawns a Tactical Marine Squad and instantly reinforces nearby Space Marine squads, then remains on the field as a reinforcement point. Cannot reinforce Terminators or non-Space-Marine squads. Cooldown 300 seconds.
-Coral: aHAH HA ha ha

This Drop also does weapon knockback and damage, and gives you a reinforcement point, also reinforces models for free if i understand this correct. And what does nids get?
Mycetic Spores | T2 300 150
Calls down mycetic spores which do 50 explosive damage and weapon knockback in radius 9, then spawn a Ravener Brood and allow allied infantry in radius 30 to reinforce. 300 second cooldown.

Nids get to spawn a T1 unit in t2, that might be useful one tier later? I love getting T1 units one tier later. Idk how many seconds i got to micro the reinforcementm but ofcourse it probably has something to do with me microing wrong and planning it wrong? Because thats what we use to say in these cases.

What is this bull about nid globals and getting T1 units one or two tiers later? And why push more micro on nids and force nid players to manage the overwatch from Warrior Vanguard, Mycetic Spores reinforcement? Why cant Warrior Vanguard, Mycetic Spores have auto reinforce? LA's SM drop, no knockback and a rather high cost, and its a T2 global, what do you accualy get, spores just cost 100/5, and you pay 125 red for that..

-Coral: aHAH HA ha ha

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And what do you get for 600/150?

3 Carnifex
3.1 Carnifex - Costs
Are "outrageous", what does 600r 150p really give you? A slow piece of shit with no abilities that "cant do much". Its way overprices for what you get, lowering the base cost for a Fex and possibly modify (lower or higher) the upgrade costs would be much more sound imo. Carnifexes are equal to other factions t3 tanks, they just cost alot more.. Is that a balance thing? I dont see that balance. Preds, Looted tank, FP, LR, they got less hp and cost less.. Because they are faster! Because Fexes are slower they got more hp, theres no reason though to increase their cost by 20-90% compared to other similar units. Another reason why the basic Carnifex should be cheaper is because it cant spawn spore mines or rippers for free.

A dark age dread would beat a vanilla fex, but still cost 75 less req. Thornback vs GUO, GUO would have ~40%hp (if calcs are in order) when the Thornback goes down, guo costs 50 less req. An upgraded fex costs 700r/185p - 750r/200p, 750r/200p? Thats a super unit? Is carnifex considered a super unit? Is carnifex balanced to be a super unit? 750r/200p is equal to a GUO, LRP, Avatar, LRR, Battlewagon, SL. Most of these units are one or more of the following: costs: slightly less 50r 20-40p or 50r more, faster or slower, more hp, more power for the money (i should back that up..).

3.2 Carnifex - Health Regen
Would be nice to have more health regen in some way on the Carnifex (and Swarmlord) as nids arnt able to "repair" their vehicals on the field. Insteed nids are forced to walk back with their slow monster creatures (TG excluded) to base in order to heal, and thats means alot of time out of the field for healing. Nids doesnt have the posibility to dubble or tripple repair stuff either, so Fex and SL really ought to get a hp regen increase. I would suggest a hp regen of 3hp/s, as that would give them 10,5hp/s within a zoanthropes regeneration synapse. Remember that regeneration synapse doesnt stack, when the zoan hits lvl 4, the regeneration heal could become op, at the same time you would kinda earn it. Maybe its possible to hard cap the maximum health regen on Fex and SL from zoan aura?

Its no certainty or given that youll have a lvl3-4 Zoa to heal your Fex or SL, lvl1-2 will be the more common case im sure of. Therefore the hp regen should be 3 rather than 2. At level 1/2/3/4 zoas regen will multiplay with 3.5/5.25/7.875/11.8125, which translates this Fex regen 3hp/s pruposal to
10,5/15,75/23,625/35,4375.. Hmm. If Fex had 2hp/s it would be 7/10,5/15,75/23,265. Maybe something in between? Or would one claim nids should have a lower "repair" as it would be automatic and not manually applied/ microed (nids got a ton of micro already, dont fall for that crap..).

[HiveSpirit]

But seriously hive. spore mines are fine. in fact you only actually want them against swarmy races and wankers who camp buildings anyway. vs races like gk or space marines it is much more effective to go for a second horma and swarm the tac/strike / ist etc. They cant hurt heavy infantry much because heavy infantry have around half the models and double the base hp but that is an inherent advantage to low model squads. We can argue that being able to selectively ignore that advantage is bad for game balance.

Hmm yea you got point there, im just so mad and blind every now and then

@Crewfinity

related to this: why are DA exarchs so cheap? only 2 population and 4.15 upkeep? thats less than a regular DA model... i feel like this should go up if they're staying in T1 for so cheap, and if DA costs are already going down.

This is SO stupid man, what?! I HATE YOU .... Just kidding, yea you make a good point here.

[Adeptus Noobus]

[Crewfinity]

aren't those *typical race builds* some what subjective?

from what i can tell the only reason why nids are winning in your numbers argument is because you purposefully omitted filling their full pop where as you easily do so with the other races , but even without adding in a final squad their total upkeep before factoring in acting upkeep is the highest at only 76 pop.

this implies that if you ever don't take advantage of the pop saving attributes of gaunts, say you lost one or something and buy a ravener or another t2 unit instead .. the upkeep would be right in the middle of the pack or even at the top end.

mostly because i was looking at numbers of squads, those are just generic heavy T2 builds for most races. the key is that nids are able to field equal army sizes while having the lower end of upkeep, while still being able to afford going to T3 and get units there.

It sounds like your saying spore mines doesnt die and arnt an investment, i think your very wrong there. If you are to preassure all through t1 with spore mines, that will be quite an investment. Its also an investment you just keep purchasing without "owning". DA's and scouts grenade, you do "own" those grenades once theyre purchased. What about after those early engagements out of the gate, how do they scale at then (when the opponent got greater ranged or melee)?

at that point you should own half the map already due to nid mobility and the pressure that spore mines apply. they cost 5 power, that's nothing, and they can be built in time for early engagements. not to mention they can be spawned at any point after for the same small cost from capillary towers, so they can be built in preparation for engagements or to turn the tide. they don't need any sort of buffs.

At will after theyre purchased, yea why not? Its not really like i can buy two carnifexes just for fun when the FRACKING VANILLA FEX COSTS 600/150?!
Just like any commander upgrade, you have to buy but can switch..
During the circumcision i think that could be something to consider, if vanilla fex were cheaper i probably wouldnt think or suggest this.

yeah you can. nid eco is ridiculous, and you get double reinforcement on all your small squishy squads as well as massive army-wide synergies from synapse and zoans. you shouldn't be bleeding that much and even with 7-8 squads your requisition income should be pretty healthy if you're keeping up on map control. nids don't need to spend that much on power either so 150 is fine there.

Do you really think its awesome to pod in two gaunt broods in t3? I assume the space marines are laughing their asses off, "dude... and he wasted 250red for gaunts Coral!", well accualy its pretty good and alot of free units and reinforcements... But its gaunts.. In T3?

umm.... yeah? 2 upgraded squads wherever you want on the map as well as AOE reinforcement for potentially your whole army?! for NO requisition?! are you seriously complaining about this?!? this helps you solidify map control, win crucial engagements, and keep your squad counts up in T3, i really dont understand how you think this is underpowered in any way. orks have to pay 250 req for call da boyz, and SM pay 200 req for normal drop pod. nids get that reinforcement FOR FREE as well as 2 extra squads.

The T2 nid globals are kinda a joke: Warrior Vanguard, Mycetic Spores and Spore Mines. What do space marine get?:
Drop Pod | T1 350 100
Call in a Drop Pod that spawns a Tactical Marine Squad and instantly reinforces nearby Space Marine squads, then remains on the field as a reinforcement point. Cannot reinforce Terminators or non-Space-Marine squads. Cooldown 300 seconds.
-Coral: aHAH HA ha ha

This Drop also does weapon knockback and damage, and gives you a reinforcement point, also reinforces models for free if i understand this correct. And what does nids get?
Mycetic Spores | T2 300 150
Calls down mycetic spores which do 50 explosive damage and weapon knockback in radius 9, then spawn a Ravener Brood and allow allied infantry in radius 30 to reinforce. 300 second cooldown.

Nids get to spawn a T1 unit in t2, that might be useful one tier later? I love getting T1 units one tier later. Idk how many seconds i got to micro the reinforcementm but ofcourse it probably has something to do with me microing wrong and planning it wrong? Because thats what we use to say in these cases.

What is this bull about nid globals and getting T1 units one or two tiers later? And why push more micro on nids and force nid players to manage the overwatch from Warrior Vanguard, Mycetic Spores reinforcement? Why cant Warrior Vanguard, Mycetic Spores have auto reinforce? LA's SM drop, no knockback and a rather high cost, and its a T2 global, what do you accualy get, spores just cost 100/5, and you pay 125 red for that..

raveners and warriors both cost power, whereas tacs do not. also both of those units have more immediate impact than a squad of tactical marines do, since warriors give basic synapse, and ravs have disruption as well as power melee damage. both are useful throughout T2.

more micro? you literally right click the reinforcement box and they'll do it automatically.

spore mines are able to be called down anywhere on the map (huge upside) and dont cost any resources besides red. not a bad global by any means. keep in mind that these all help you apply extreme map pressure throughout all stages of the game, increasing your lead and resource income.

3.1 Carnifex - Costs
Are "outrageous", what does 600r 150p really give you? A slow piece of shit with no abilities that "cant do much". Its way overprices for what you get, lowering the base cost for a Fex and possibly modify (lower or higher) the upgrade costs would be much more sound imo. Carnifexes are equal to other factions t3 tanks, they just cost alot more.. Is that a balance thing? I dont see that balance. Preds, Looted tank, FP, LR, they got less hp and cost less.. Because they are faster! Because Fexes are slower they got more hp, theres no reason though to increase their cost by 20-90% compared to other similar units. Another reason why the basic Carnifex should be cheaper is because it cant spawn spore mines or rippers for free.

A dark age dread would beat a vanilla fex, but still cost 75 less req. Thornback vs GUO, GUO would have ~40%hp (if calcs are in order) when the Thornback goes down, guo costs 50 less req. An upgraded fex costs 700r/185p - 750r/200p, 750r/200p? Thats a super unit? Is carnifex considered a super unit? Is carnifex balanced to be a super unit? 750r/200p is equal to a GUO, LRP, Avatar, LRR, Battlewagon, SL. Most of these units are one or more of the following: costs: slightly less 50r 20-40p or 50r more, faster or slower, more hp, more power for the money (i should back that up..).

massively durable platform with great basic stats that can upgrade to awesome weapons, gets benefits from armywide buffs, and doesnt require repair? all on a faction that excels at getting to T3 and then churning these out one after another? with relative economies its about as easy to get a carnifex on the field for nids as it is to get a predator on the field for SM.

3.2 Carnifex - Health Regen
Would be nice to have more health regen in some way on the Carnifex (and Swarmlord) as nids arnt able to "repair" their vehicals on the field. Insteed nids are forced to walk back with their slow monster creatures (TG excluded) to base in order to heal, and thats means alot of time out of the field for healing. Nids doesnt have the posibility to dubble or tripple repair stuff either, so Fex and SL really ought to get a hp regen increase. I would suggest a hp regen of 3hp/s, as that would give them 10,5hp/s within a zoanthropes regeneration synapse. Remember that regeneration synapse doesnt stack, when the zoan hits lvl 4, the regeneration heal could become op, at the same time you would kinda earn it. Maybe its possible to hard cap the maximum health regen on Fex and SL from zoan aura?

Its no certainty or given that youll have a lvl3-4 Zoa to heal your Fex or SL, lvl1-2 will be the more common case im sure of. Therefore the hp regen should be 3 rather than 2. At level 1/2/3/4 zoas regen will multiplay with 3.5/5.25/7.875/11.8125, which translates this Fex regen 3hp/s pruposal to
10,5/15,75/23,625/35,4375.. Hmm. If Fex had 2hp/s it would be 7/10,5/15,75/23,265. Maybe something in between? Or would one claim nids should have a lower "repair" as it would be automatic and not manually applied/ microed (nids got a ton of micro already, dont fall for that crap..).

no. other factions have to repair their units, necessitating support and time spent repairing for both units. zoans give almost equal to a squad of repair passively as well as healing the whole rest of the army. and thats at level one. you seriously want a level 4 zoan to act like 3 and a half squads constantly repairing a carnifex?! as a passive ability along with its normal artillery function?!? when carnifexes already have an enormous health pool?! fuck no. nids are already a powerhouse.

[Cyris]

I do agree that fex's are overpriced / could use minor buffs (I like the regen idea), but I think compositionally nids don't really need to buff fex's (except maybe VC, it's never recovered properly from losing fotm). Fex's are like finish moves to me: your enemy has just barely managed to stabilize against your swarms of infantry when an (admittedly cost inefficient) ball of vehicle armor hits the field and puts the nail in the coffin.

I pretty much straight disagree with the rest of Hive's comments. T2 call-in globas are nuts strong - reinforce and a new squad at a pivotal T2 fight is amazing. Capillary towers are just the best, and the T3 call-in is stright up over powered. 250 red for 2 squads, reinforce and occasional KB is suuuper relevant. I never build Spore Mines I'll admit, but I've been totally shut down by them in some games, so I think they are a unit I'll personally be experimenting with if I play nids again.

Oh and yeah, my GK broken record:
Ops need more nerfs
Add Warrior Acolyte squad to T1
Let GK terminators level (nerf base stats to make room)

On that note briefly, I'm theory crafting GK T1 of: SS - Ops - Purg - Purg. 1300/90 cost total before upgrades. Might need the 2nd IST (or even replace the SS with 1-2 IST), but this will allow for brutal gen-bashing if not countered and scales really well into T2 (with either VA, Rhino or Libby I think). I had messed around with: SS - IST - Purg - Purg in 2.3 and it worked well, so replacing the 2nd IST with an Ops will prolly only make it stronger.

[Asmon]

Well I wouldn't call Carnifexes nails in the coffin. In 1v1 and especially when your opponent hasn't invested in any anti-armor, a thornback charging his ranks with well managed rippers can definitively make a turn over.

[HiveSpirit]

@Crewfinity

at that point you should own half the map already due to nid mobility and the pressure that spore mines apply. they cost 5 power, that's nothing, and they can be built in time for early engagements. not to mention they can be spawned at any point after for the same small cost from capillary towers, so they can be built in preparation for engagements or to turn the tide. they don't need any sort of buffs.

Sluggas and banshees melee spore mines down before the 2nd detonation, + eventuall help from the rest of their army.

And warriors/venomB are susceptible vs every weapon in the game, size medium ftw.

Those two T1 squads you get with Without Number in T3 have an upkeep to it aswell.

massively durable platform with great basic stats that can upgrade to awesome weapons, gets benefits from armywide buffs, and doesnt require repair?

Carnifex doesnt require repair.. What? How is it fair to reject Nids vehicle repair?

Lets give Preds and LootaT speed 4,5 and 1350hp, and carnifex's 7.25 speed and 700hp..
Whats the hp worth when its just a delayed death due to kiting.

I also suggested a cap to the possible "repair" from zoa to fex/ SL to avoid OPness.. Its to give nids the possibility to stay on the field insteed of beeing forced to walk back to base with these slow units (SL is okay but..). Its an option tyranid vehicles doesnt have, its also something nids vehicles are worst at due to their slow speed compared to other factions faster vehicles. So nids vehicles kinda have two down sides, theyre slow and cant stay on the field with low hp n get repaired.

Well just agree to disagree.

[Cyris]

Well I wouldn't call Carnifexes nails in the coffin. In 1v1 and especially when your opponent hasn't invested in any anti-armor, a thornback charging his ranks with well managed rippers can definitively make a turn over.

Sure, but that means you've at least generated enough of an advantage in T1/2 to pay 300/150 for T3, 600/150 for the fex and 100/50 for thornback. You often can't spend 1000/350 and the like 2mins of build times without any new units to catch up from being behind. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of ways to use fex's. I just find that in a real late T3 vs T3 where both players are on an even footing, they don't really shine for their cost. Often a battle tank that's 2/3 the price will have a bigger impact. In short, I think of them as a "win more" unit as opposed to a "catchup" unit.

[Crewfinity]

Sluggas and banshees melee spore mines down before the 2nd detonation, + eventuall help from the rest of their army.

so you already did half of their hp's worth of damage, suppressed them so you can focus fire with termagaunts, and tied them up for as long as it takes to kill the spore mines? already worth it. you have an army too, use it. also flanking is a thing you can do with spore mines. also retreat kills are balls easy to get on somewhat low squads if you play it well.

And warriors/venomB are susceptible vs every weapon in the game, size medium ftw.

yeah this is like one of the primary downsides of nids, and integral to playing with/against them by focusing on synapse. whats your point?

Those two T1 squads you get with Without Number in T3 have an upkeep to it aswell.

sure, but that amount is insignificant in the first place, and you're getting them FOR FREE. how many times have you lost starting squads and wished you had them to cap with, but dont want to spend the resources getting them on the field? they also come with upgrades so its not like they're useless or require much additional investment to be a threat.

Carnifex doesnt require repair.. What? How is it fair to reject Nids vehicle repair?

Lets give Preds and LootaT speed 4,5 and 1350hp, and carnifex's 7.25 speed and 700hp..
Whats the hp worth when its just a delayed death due to kiting.

Well just agree to disagree.

because they have numerous other ways to support it, and aren't reliant on having repair squads that survived and are next to the unit to be able to repair it. they have a passive health regen that gets multiplied by a core unit of the nid composition, what's not to like about that?
you're making faulty comparisons by looking at those tanks. also opponents often do not get AV in T2 against nids unless a tyrant guard is fielded, which usually means that a carnifex demands more investment into additional AV than a tank does. without upgrades a carnifex is like a dreadnought, but the flexibility in its weapon upgrades makes it much more valuable. ex the SM dreadnought can only get a short ranged AV weapon or the assault cannon, the carnifex can get more powerful weapons at longer range, which coupled with the extreme durability of the platform makes the weapons much more impactful than a predator since it is harder to force off.

the way you're describing this it sounds like you see a pred and just chase after it and expect the carnifex to win. obviously that's not going to work. they're an incredibly powerful unit to dislodge, which when coupled with the numerous ways that nids have of disrupting or tying up AV teams (rippers, spore mines, hormagaunts, etc) allows for huge pushes. combine it with a zoan and you basically have constant repairs going on for free, which quickly gets absurd with levels on either the zoan or the carnifex. get the VC and preds can't kite you anymore, the barbed strangler also performs well at anti-all since it does plasma cannon damage. keep in mind that even with a ranged weapon upgrade, the carnifex still retains extremely high single target melee damage, something no tank can boast. that's not insignificant. also rippers slow vehicles as well as messing up their pathing along with capillary towers so you can have some chase potential if you really need it.

[HiveSpirit]

So you already did half of their hp's worth of damage, suppressed them so you can focus fire with termagaunts, and tied them up for as long as it takes to kill the spore mines?

So what about next engagement? Or if that ork has a WB, or 2 sluggas, those force offs with spore mines will add up to a cost per engagement. If the opponent takes down the SpMi and retreats before any bleed, then nid pays 100r/5p and the ork nothing.. Strong win for your opponent in those cases. How long will one SpMi work before it gets useless? Should you get two new spore mine units then insteed?

Yeah this is like one of the primary downsides of nids, and integral to playing with/against them by focusing on synapse. whats your point?

The point should be obvious, medium size just shouldnt be. Change it to small.

sure, but that amount is insignificant in the first place, and you're getting them FOR FREE. how many times have you lost starting squads and wished you had them to cap with, but dont want to spend the resources getting them on the field? they also come with upgrades so its not like they're useless or require much additional investment to be a threat.

61,2 upkeep doesnt count? Ok.
One shouldnt loose those starting squads from the begining.. And what if you dont lose the starting squad, bam your sitting on 7-9 units + 2 extra gaunts. A total of 4-6 gaunt squads.

Vanilla Fex isnt something viable to play with for 600r/150p.. Dread is t2, Fex is t3. Theyre equal in speed and hp, yeat Fex costs 150r/30p more..
Dread comes with a natural Imperials fist ability, also has the Inspire aura, has good melee and short AI, all this for 450/120.. Can upgrade to long range AI and med range AV, at that point dread costs 550/150, still cheaper than a vanilla fex, and btw its just t2.
Yea, vanilla Fex would probably take a dread in all cases in t3 i guess, but the Dread comes with more options so that squares it out. Fex still costs more and is t3..

I say, if you must, increase the costs in Fex's upgrade insteed of the vanilla unit, preferably just reduce vanilla fex costs and leave the upgrades be.

Combine it with a zoan and you basically have constant repairs going on for free, which quickly gets absurd with levels on either the zoan or the carnifex.

I do not agree that its absurd..

Well now adays preds can kite rippers all day long, rippers also has a cost to it. Sure it gives you advantage but its also "bleed" and costs out. They kinda will be used up in the instant most of the times, and its an extra unit to micro.

PS from last post:
I also suggested a cap to the possible "repair" from zoa to fex/ SL to avoid OPness.. Its to give nids the possibility to stay on the field insteed of beeing forced to walk back to base with these slow units (SL is okay but..). Its an option tyranid vehicles doesnt have, its also something nids vehicles are worst at due to their slow speed compared to other factions faster vehicles. So nids vehicles kinda have two down sides, theyre slow and cant stay on the field with low hp n get repaired.

[Crewfinity]

So what about next engagement? Or if that ork has a WB, or 2 sluggas, those force offs with spore mines will add up to a cost per engagement. If the opponent takes down the SpMi and retreats before any bleed, then nid pays 100r/5p and the ork nothing.. Strong win for your opponent in those cases. How long will one SpMi work before it gets useless? Should you get two new spore mine units then insteed?

no, the nid payed 100/5 to force off a squad in the opening engagement, which makes it easier to win map control in the beginning, which translates to more resources for you, most likely more than 100/5 worth. hardly a strong win for your opponent. i'm not saying you should rebuy them every time you lose them ofc, but they can be invaluable for taking a strong start and never letting the opponent take initiative.

61,2 upkeep doesnt count? Ok.
One shouldnt loose those starting squads from the begining.. And what if you dont lose the starting squad, bam your sitting on 7-9 units + 2 extra gaunts. A total of 4-6 gaunt squads.

if you never lost them in the first place then you can use your red for a nuke or more capillary towers. how terrible
obviously dont use it if you dont need to, but getting 2 squads for free is amazing in a game where so much depends on map control.

Vanilla Fex isnt something viable to play with for 600r/150p.. Dread is t2, Fex is t3. Theyre equal in speed and hp, yeat Fex costs 150r/30p more..
Dread comes with a natural Imperials fist ability, also has the Inspire aura, has good melee and short AI, all this for 450/120.. Can upgrade to long range AI and med range AV, at that point dread costs 550/150, still cheaper than a vanilla fex, and btw its just t2.
Yea, vanilla Fex would probably take a dread in all cases in t3 i guess, but the Dread comes with more options so that squares it out. Fex still costs more and is t3..

comparing different economies, nids eco is much more robust than SM so its much easier to support a fex with a large army than a dreadnought. also fex has 150 more HP out the gate and does more damage per hit. its upgrade options are much better than a dreadnought's as well, which makes the base carnifex platform much more valuable than the dreadnought.

Well now adays preds can kite rippers all day long, rippers also has a cost to it. Sure it gives you advantage but its also "bleed" and costs out. They kinda will be used up in the instant most of the times, and its an extra unit to micro.

rippers are free from thornback and only 100 from a capillary tower. they're also speed 7 so they can catch a predator a lot of the time since their attacks snare. they're also size tiny so they can be remarkably difficult to actually kill.

[HiveSpirit]

I would say SM economy is more stable/ robust thanks to low model, high hp and the posibility to easier make use of cover and get a wooping 37,5-70% more effective hp. Less bleed. Also advantage in garrison to have higher dmg output due to less models with higher dmg. And the less vulnerability to aoe dmg.

[Crewfinity]

I would say SM economy is more stable/ robust thanks to low model, high hp and the posibility to easier make use of cover and get a wooping 37,5-70% more effective hp. Less bleed. Also advantage in garrison to have higher dmg output due to less models with higher dmg. And the less vulnerability to aoe dmg.

yeah they have high HP but one tac model loss is equal to 10 termagaunts reinforcing once you have endless swarm up. once you get to T2 and you have better damage types its pretty easy for nids to have the advantage. even with 70% more effective hp tacs still lose out on the efficiency battle. if you look in the other thread there are plenty of downsides as well as advantages to having small squad sizes. in addition nids are able to field more squads for less population/upkeep so they can have an easier time maintaining map control and therefore higher resource income.

[Dark Riku]

I'm not sure why some people and I even try. This whole conversation is so pointless.

Spore mines apply so much pressure versus all races. freaking support your spore mines instead of sending them in alone.
Spore mine drop is just fantastic versus buildings or amazing to be used in retreat path to finish stuff off, well worth their red.
Tyrand Guards heal up in seconds in shield wall combined with a zoan.
Tyranids don't have normal vehicles, instead all their stuff regens automatically. Meaning you don't need another squad just to keep this one operational. Heal up faster with a zoan nearby too! This also means that abilities like FoS, Orb of the Omnissiah don't even work on them! The SL even has a self-heal!
@economy: upkeep is a thing, look it up. The higher upkeep races are getting less income than the lower ones thanks to this. Now add in model losses and yeah ~~
The list goes on.
Terminators should cost more while Nobs and Fexes should cost less? Please, enlighten us more .

It would also help if you made your sentences more understandable HiveSpirit... What the hell does "Coral" even mean?


Believe whatever you want HiveSpirit, but don't come here with these extremely questionable arguments and change suggestion.
I REALLY ENCOURAGE you to watch some high level games or play me a couple of times in a 1v1 to see what I'm talking about.

[Forestradio]

nerf flesh hook and pheromones and menacing visage kk thx bai