Rangers

[Sub_Zero]

You made rangers godlike. They are really amazing now. I would love to see them in this exact state in terms of combat performance. Now they don't lose their relevance in later tiers even though their damage still feels obsolete for T2-T3. But this is no longer a complaint since they do such a great thing - suppress. But I do think that for the cost they are available now doesn't adequately represent their strength. They used to cost 30 power. So it was the right step to lower this cost a bit to reflect the loss of killing power. But now they were kinda reinstated. No, they didn't get their former killing power, they got something else, something more valuable from whatever angle you look at it. But I dare to say that they are even better now than they used to be before the big sniper change. I think you all understand why.

And here is my proposal. Revert back the value of their desetup time. They are not in need of this, their range is so superior and they suppress now, so it is more than reasonable to revert the value back. And increase the power cost to at least 30. I would consider adding a slight number of requisition on top of that. Something like 25-50. So this way it delays teching a little bit and allows the opponent to punish 2x rangers build with a quick vehicle faster.

[Sub_Zero]

Wow, not a single reply? I thought there would be at least several of them. Do people have nothing to say about rangers?

[Torpid]

People don't like serious topics on this forum unfortunately.

Myself, I've been rather busy lately and so haven't been able to post as many huge walls of text on the forums as I normally like.

I like the change to rangers, I think it is very smart and a nice way to go about balancing them without making them super obnoxious like in retail (and honestly just super OP). However 2 shots to supress is too fast. I would like to try 3shots personally. I realise the courage system causes it all to be a fiddly though. If it is 3 shots to suppress then the fourth shot may not come quick enough from a single ranger to keep the squad suppressed because they will have regained their courage. Also, I never even knew but cover gives supression defence. Normally that's not a big deal due to the massive amounts of courage damage that SUTs inflict, but with these rangers which have much lower courage-damage-per-second, green cover actually makes units immune to the suppression of rangers - or at least tactical marines.

[Cyris]

I also quite like the change. It gives Rangers attack more utility without peeling models. I don't have any strong opinions about how fast/slow it suppresses though, cause I haven't fought against or as it enough yet. Good note on the cover, I totally didn't know that either!

[Sub_Zero]

But I am more concerned about their cost. Do you feel like they must be more expensive to field? Because the cost should reflect the unit's strength. And they grew themselves some nice muscles, not without the help from side but whatever.

[DandyFrontline]

But I am more concerned about their cost. Do you feel like they must be more expensive to field? Because the cost should reflect the unit's strength. And they grew themselves some nice muscles, not without the help from side but whatever.

Agreed. After that buff they should be 30 energy again.
Very long range of fire, pretty good dps, kinetic shot = really cool disruption ability, infiltration and group infiltration (for additional cost) + now they can suppress in 2 shots (1 if there is 2 squads of rangers). They Surely need to cost as before - 30 energy.

P.S. But the suppress buff should remain i think, so they still can be useful at t2/t3

[Vapor]

Nah just reduce kinetic pulse damage to 10 or something, rangers have enough utility with suppress knockback and infiltrate, they don't need the extra aoe damage

[Adeptus Noobus]

People don't like serious topics on this forum unfortunately.

Myself, I've been rather busy lately and so haven't been able to post as many huge walls of text on the forums as I normally like.

I like the change to rangers, I think it is very smart and a nice way to go about balancing them without making them super obnoxious like in retail (and honestly just super OP). However 2 shots to supress is too fast. I would like to try 3shots personally. I realise the courage system causes it all to be a fiddly though. If it is 3 shots to suppress then the fourth shot may not come quick enough from a single ranger to keep the squad suppressed because they will have regained their courage. Also, I never even knew but cover gives supression defence. Normally that's not a big deal due to the massive amounts of courage damage that SUTs inflict, but with these rangers which have much lower courage-damage-per-second, green cover actually makes units immune to the suppression of rangers - or at least tactical marines.

The courage modifier vs green cover has been raised, so Snipers should actually suppress units in heavy cover faster than they have before.

- sniper_hi courage damage modifier against cover changed:
Light from 0.5 to 0.75
Heavy from 0.25 to 0.5

[Torpid]

People don't like serious topics on this forum unfortunately.

Myself, I've been rather busy lately and so haven't been able to post as many huge walls of text on the forums as I normally like.

I like the change to rangers, I think it is very smart and a nice way to go about balancing them without making them super obnoxious like in retail (and honestly just super OP). However 2 shots to supress is too fast. I would like to try 3shots personally. I realise the courage system causes it all to be a fiddly though. If it is 3 shots to suppress then the fourth shot may not come quick enough from a single ranger to keep the squad suppressed because they will have regained their courage. Also, I never even knew but cover gives supression defence. Normally that's not a big deal due to the massive amounts of courage damage that SUTs inflict, but with these rangers which have much lower courage-damage-per-second, green cover actually makes units immune to the suppression of rangers - or at least tactical marines.

The courage modifier vs green cover has been raised, so Snipers should actually suppress units in heavy cover faster than they have before.

- sniper_hi courage damage modifier against cover changed:
Light from 0.5 to 0.75
Heavy from 0.25 to 0.5

Well, it's apparently still insufficient. As I shot a squad of tacs 7times without re-setting up or anything like that and they did not get suppressed. I assumed they were just immune to the suppression while in green cover when only one ranger is shooting at them as their couragedps is too low.

[Tex]

2 shots for suppress is poo tbh. With this suppression trait and low cost, I would like to see kinetic shot tied into the pathfinder upgrade and the cost of the upgrade increased.

Quite simply, it is a nice idea, but just too much up front.

Just my opinion though.

[Asmon]

I'm loving new rangers and I have found nothing dramatically over the top yet. As long as you stand in cover the courage damage is alright. What did counter them still do, I'd like 1v1 replays if you truly think they are "godlike".

[HansMoleman]

The new rangers change in regards to them doing suppression feels like taking 3 steps backwards into Retail Realm. Get 2 Rangers click unit, instant suppression at super ranger/ instant engagement won. What the rangers need is to be mobile and constantly being micro ed to poke the enemy. The last patch had rangers in a better position where you had to maneuver properly to start a flank or battle. Now you just get 2 rangers click and shoot. Eldar mirrors has gone back to who can get 2x rangers first now . This is just my opinion but anything that encourages lazy play early on is a BIG NO in my book for encouraging variety in tactical play. Make rangers 280/25 again with all the changes except courage damage. The kinetic pulse + 10 cooldown on the ability is all they need to stay relevant . Rant Over.

[Swift]

Do people make a lot of these threads when they don't know how to play around something?

[Lichtbringer]

People don't like serious topics on this forum unfortunately.

Nice generalization.

If you want here is my reason for not posting.

First of all, the OP starts with "You made rangers godlike. They are really amazing now.", with which I do not agree. This seems like a lot of hyperbole to me (which makes me less likely to want to respond to + if he is serious we have very different views, in that case I don't think he would take anything I say seriously.).

This is no design question, this is straight up finetuning. I don't feel good enough in the overall game, to decide if Ranger should cost 5 power more or not.

On Topic:
Also, a single ranger can't even really continously supress a target. After 2 shots (most of the time) the enemy is supressed. BUT before the 3th shot comes in, the enemy is unsupressed for 1,5-2 seconds. This allows an enemy for example to move back. If he does that, you have to chase, can't reapply supression fast enough. It's not like you basically have to retreat out of it, like you would have to do with a supression team.
So I don't feel like it has a big impact if you play with 1 Ranger, definitly not waranting a price increase. If I just have one ranger, not microed in the backline, I never see something get supressed randomly in a big fight.
2 Rangers I don't think is viable except against other Eldar players in 1v1. (even though I am not sure).

I agree that playing against 2 rangers feels annoying, you are basically instantly supressed. But thats only one squad against 2 squads.


Btw, I have another semirandom mechanics question, if anyone knows. How does the FSs ghosthelm courage damage work? It does 100 per second, but the moment the effect ends, the squad is unsupressed. So how does that happen?

[Torpid]

People don't like serious topics on this forum unfortunately.

Nice generalization.

If you want here is my reason for not posting.

First of all, the OP starts with "You made rangers godlike. They are really amazing now.", with which I do not agree. This seems like a lot of hyperbole to me (which makes me less likely to want to respond to + if he is serious we have very different views, in that case I don't think he would take anything I say seriously.).

This is no design question, this is straight up finetuning. I don't feel good enough in the overall game, to decide if Ranger should cost 5 power more or not.

On Topic:
Also, a single ranger can't even really continously supress a target. After 2 shots (most of the time) the enemy is supressed. BUT before the 3th shot comes in, the enemy is unsupressed for 1,5-2 seconds. This allows an enemy for example to move back. If he does that, you have to chase, can't reapply supression fast enough. It's not like you basically have to retreat out of it, like you would have to do with a supression team.
So I don't feel like it has a big impact if you play with 1 Ranger, definitly not waranting a price increase. If I just have one ranger, not microed in the backline, I never see something get supressed randomly in a big fight.
2 Rangers I don't think is viable except against other Eldar players in 1v1. (even though I am not sure).

I agree that playing against 2 rangers feels annoying, you are basically instantly supressed. But thats only one squad against 2 squads.

Btw, I have another semirandom mechanics question, if anyone knows. How does the FSs ghosthelm courage damage work? It does 100 per second, but the moment the effect ends, the squad is unsupressed. So how does that happen?

It stops the enemy squad from merely being able to walk forward and shoot up your snipers, or any other squad nearby, like they could before. That's great. And it does way more damage to units in cover than suppression. Bear in mind you can of course just walk out of suppression when it is shooting you from the same distance as ranger's maximum range since at that distance it is doing barely anything. If it is closer than the 1.5seconds of normal movement that a squad gets between ranger shots is not going to save all their models as the rangers will still be able to get in numerous shots on the fleeing squad - but you've done your job there by having rangers solo another squad when ultimately rangers are meant to be a support squad not something that solos other squads like... A shuriken. They are support with kinetic pulse, holo-field and being a SUT counter... But with this suppression they become a true offensive ranged unit; much more than support and analogous to retail rangers, which were always far more aggressive and could go around in pairs soloing squads with ease.

"2 Rangers I don't think is viable except against other Eldar players in 1v1. (even though I am not sure)

This isn't true. I've been running 2x DA + 2x ranger T1s in 3v3 a lot recently and it is very strong. That also works in 1v1 vs eldar. I've also been doing DA, shee, 2x ranger which is great on certain maps vs SM. I have been doing 2x DA, shees, 2x ranger with great success vs chaos and nids (being able to instantly suppress a zoanthrope from so far away is wonderful) and the damage of kinetic pulse makes rangers a real threat to gaunt squads so they're actually great vs nids now. Tried it vs ork but it doesn't really work... Shurikens are much better there. And vs CSM/SM on some maps, i.e. the less open ones, shurikens are still better. But no, double rangers is definitely super viable in 1v1 vs all MUs except obv IG (and orks) where 3x DA and 2x shuriken is still the best bet (or 2x DA, shees, 1/2 shuri vs orks).

I notice though in hindsight that I am either going for two rangers or going for none at all. I find that suspicious.

Ghosthelm does normal damage and courage damage over the duration of the ability. But it isn't gigantic amounts of it so once it stops adding more the unit will no longer be suppressed due to how quick courage recovers. I imagine units recover 100courage/s naturally and a unit must get to 0 courage to be suppressed.

[Lichtbringer]

So maybe its a design problem after all, making it so that 2 Rangers becomes less viable, but 1 more.^^

I think units only have 100 courage (Firedragons now 200). Thats why the Ghosthelm supresses on the first tick.

I made some tests just now:
(I was wrong on the ghosthelm, the supression doesn't instantly dissapear. (it takes around 3-4 seconds, like every other supression I would guess.)

1 Ranger team needs 3 shots to supress if the small arms aren't firing. With them, 2.
Before the next shot, the enemy will be unsupressed for 1-2 seconds (probably they had to reload codex says after 3 shots for 1 second EDIT: oh no, I switched the numbers. They reload after every shot for 3 seconds.... so maybe they need to reaim sometimes, and sometimes not?).

2 Rangers on the other hand, instantly supress the enemy if they shoot at the same time. If you after that, layer the shots a bit (so delay one ranger a second) the supression is constant, no pause.


1 Ranger taking 3 immediatly consecutive shots, without any pause, needed to supress + small amounts of time without supression is way less scary then 2 Rangers supressing on their first combined shot, without any pause in supression, and probably even the ability to leap frog them back.

Kaeltos, is that intended design? Maybe 2 rangers is a heavy enough investment to justify this. I am curious If its intended that 2 Rangers perform in this improved way compared to 1 ranger, all good. If not, maybe we could tweak some stats.

We shouldn't forget that 1 Ranger also has synergy with a Shuriken platform. If the platform graces one enemy, and needs to focus on another enemy, the Ranger can keep supressing them even while it runs out of the Shuriken arc with one shot. I am sure there is some learning process and adapting here.

Hmmm...


EDIT: Just saw the Hotfix..... so oh well. I will probably use Direavengers for detection then.

[Forestradio]

Units have 100 courage (except for fire dragons and purifiers which have 200 and warboss/kasrkins that have 150). Standard courage regeneration rate is 10 courage per second. When units are suppressed (ie courage is at 0) they regen at 13 courage per second. Units recover from suppression at 50 courage, so around 4 seconds to recover is correct.

^this was all from memory i didn't check anything so if it's wrong no one kill me plox

[RedRupee]

i think the supression is a bit much too. There is almost zero way to approach the snipers now unless you commit to a jump squad ( and even then, if players are positioning well that wont help mich either). Between spot supression and kinecticpulse, i cant even get close with any ranged squad, they arent like a set up team that has a long setup/breakdown time that gives you a chance to flank or outmanuever. They of course have detection so you cant sneak up on them with infiltrate either.

[DandyFrontline]

i think the supression is a bit much too. There is almost zero way to approach the snipers now unless you commit to a jump squad ( and even then, if players are positioning well that wont help mich either). Between spot supression and kinecticpulse, i cant even get close with any ranged squad, they arent like a set up team that has a long setup/breakdown time that gives you a chance to flank or outmanuever. They of course have detection so you cant sneak up on them with infiltrate either.

I think suppression is a good thing for a Rangers, but it should be like a 75req upgrade on t2. Why Scouts dont have suppression though? They dont even have kinetic shot.

[egewithin]

I think suppression is a good thing for a Rangers, but it should be like a 75req upgrade on t2. Why Scouts dont have suppression though? They dont even have kinetic shot.

1-) Shotgun Blast

2-) BecauseScounts don't need such thing apart from Shotgun Blast. Devestators are enough for suppression for SM. And do not compare Scouts and Rangers suppression because courage damage on shot is a lux and wasn't expected. It was something new to try out. And going to be toned down because of balance reasons as you already now.

[Dark Riku]

1-) Shotgun Blast

They don't have that when they upgrade to snipers.

[Atlas]

The reason Scouts didn't suppress with their sniper attacks is because the major benefit of scouts to rangers is their versatility. They don't HAVE to be a sniper squad when they could be a grenadier/shotgun squad. Just trying to match up 1/1 across factions isn't always very indicative of anything since every faction has it's own internal composition.

I'm going to also preempt the "Rangers are shotgun-sniper scouts since they can kinetic pulse too" argument with the same reasoning. Just because one of these squads has something doesn't mean the other needs to too or it will be inferior.

[Swift]

Scouts do more damage with their individual shots and the SM roster does not rely on them for long range disruption, we have ASM for that and Eldar have Kinetic pulse.

They don't HAVE to be a sniper squad when they could be a grenadier/shotgun squad.

Grenadier and "Grenade - er" are not the same thing

[DandyFrontline]

Scouts do more damage with their individual shots and the SM roster does not rely on them for long range disruption, we have ASM for that and Eldar have Kinetic pulse.

They don't HAVE to be a sniper squad when they could be a grenadier/shotgun squad.

Grenadier and "Grenade - er" are not the same thing

lol, yea, that what im thinking about when i hear 'grenadier'

[Atlas]

Grenadier and "Grenade - er" are not the same thing

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grenadier

You've got it all wrong; I was talking about the fish