Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Venjitron
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Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Venjitron » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 1:52 am

many players have stated that thunderhammer with its tracking aoe special is too strong.....i propose a rework theory

remove tracking special attack in its form....completely, the animation and concept relegated to the useless bin
let warcry with thunderhammer have special properties added to the thunderhammer purchase
so with special attack removed it remains a single target per swing weapon like most standard melee attacks
warcry renamed "assault momentum" retains the same properties that standard warcry while himself not having special attack with thunderhammer
assault momentum gives knockback to the target hit by the normal weaponswings of the force commander
assault momentum each swing increases the attack speed of the force commander by 10% upto a cap of 60%
this will enable him to retain some of the knockback and due to domino effect knock models around the target of the swing but not hit large groups with knockback that he had with the tracking special attack
the increased swing speed helps keep this disruption going while the force commander attacks single targets faster as to retain damage potential while not dealing dmg to mulitple targets in one large burst like the tracking special attack
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egewithin
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby egewithin » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 5:15 am

Actually we do not complain it too much. Thunder hammer is just fine. Very good anti-melee option and does fair amounts of damage as well. Yes it hurts but it has very slow attack animation so sucks without Battle Cry I say.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 7:01 am

The Thunderhammer would be demoted to a single-target weapon which is not how the TH works. You are supposed to get into a blob and instantly crush units in a certain radius. The tracking actually allows the FC to hit something. Without it he would be kited all day long. Also, the momentum does not make up for the fact you are basically hitting single targets, even when there may be domino-knockback. That would be a huge nerf to the weapon. The FC is not as tanky so he would also be killed in an instant as all the other units around him that are not affected by domino-knockback could continue with their hate-fueled attacks against the FC.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Venjitron » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 2:39 pm

firat your a fewl and what you wrote sounds to me like sm fanboi propagander..not interested in you in the slightest
adeptus noobus dear chap you wrote "The Thunderhammer would be demoted to a single-target weapon which is not how the TH works." how would a rework be a demotion.....with artificer armour and iron halo are you saying face commander cannnot tank or your unhappy that a 360 aoe disruption 3 squads forced off per engagement who possibly has teleporter who crosses the line between tank and army solo mode and jump troop isnt good enough? your worried also about being kited...like every other melee hero woe betide fc suffering like any other melee weapon equipped hero in the game. the idea was he still retains model kill potential by working into a flurry of fast powerful blows and those models hit are often hit again and if you keep still or don't kite while the rest of the marine forces push up thats totally upto you...but to me it sounds better than you send fc in alone he forces of 2-4 squads retreats then you push up once the stuff has faced the retreat or wipe in 3-6 hits force commander
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby karnakkardak » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 3:08 pm

As one of IG player, I totally agreed venjitron's offer. Originally IG terribly lack of anti assult team, and this combined Th FC=nothing to couter except inquistor.
My opinion is only about Ig situation but not really different other faction maybe.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby lolzarz » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 3:17 pm

Or I could just take the power sword/fist if I wanted single-target damage. The hell you talking about?
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 5:08 pm

I am not versed in the lore of Warhammer but I found this: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thunder_hammer (This is what I meant by saying "That is not how it works"). The Hammer releases a energy field/shockwave on impact, hence AOE damage and knockback.
Now the Lexicanum is not what balance should be based upon but let me say this: If you must get additional wargear to make your weapon choice viable then something might be wrong with that weapon. Also, firat is right when saying the attack animations are slow and tracking is kind of a must or his attacks could be kited all day long. But you have proposed a rework, let's talk about that.

Your rework revolves around the idea that the attacks get faster with each hit but only hit single models. So let's take teleporting into an IG blob as an example. GMs are a high model count unit so the attack is likely to create the domino-knockback you talk about. But that would be it. A Thunderhammer knocking down a single squad. Two, if you are lucky and they knock each other down. So crowd control is gone and him would simply get shot down by all the other stuff standing around.

The second reason to get the Hammer, besides crowd control, is its effectiveness as a melee deterrent to e.g. Gene Stealers, Hormagaunts, Sluggas, etc. Now if these units were to get into close combat, they would naturally attack from all sides and not stand behind each other, waiting to take their turn taking a swing at the FC, like they do in the movies. They would swarm his ass. The reason I mention this is that the domino-knockback, which would be kind of important in this scenario, would not come into effect. The models that the FC is not facing would continue to maul him. Even with his momentum activated he could not tackle this problem. Genestealers would find the FC to be an easy target.

Maybe I am not getting your idea of how the momentum could compensate for the lack of tracking and aoe knockback... Enlighten us but be polite about it.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Bahamut » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 5:11 pm

karnakkardak wrote:As one of IG player, I totally agreed venjitron's offer. Originally IG terribly lack of anti assult team, and this combined Th FC=nothing to couter except inquistor.
My opinion is only about Ig situation but not really different other faction maybe.


LC can deal with it easily, LG with flak jacket nullifies the KB as well. Catachans will eat ASM in melee. And with a setup team backup is possible to counter
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 5:13 pm

karnakkardak wrote:As one of IG player, I totally agreed venjitron's offer. Originally IG terribly lack of anti assult team, and this combined Th FC=nothing to couter except inquistor.
My opinion is only about Ig situation but not really different other faction maybe.


The Lord General has the Flak Jacket which gives knockback immunity. The Inquisitor has Hammer of the witches, Assail, crippling volley. Only the Lord Commisar has no ability to control the TH-FC. Sentinels can stun him though.

EDIT: And what Bahamut said about Catachans.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby karnakkardak » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 5:24 pm

Catachan eat asm? Well, can they win even jump knock back attack and merciless strike combo(both full upgraded)? their melee dmg nerfed 2.3.1 (30 dps in vinilla but decrase in 2.3.1 20dps if I right. ) and asm can do knock back special attack.(cata dont have special attack) And most battle, sm user's primary target catachan devil team.
Yes devil have knock back shot but maybe not "eat" asm as like retribution.

And we cannot always prepare backup setup hwt team. Bro.
Lg flak armor i missed. :o

Add about sentinel. It effective counter but so much fragile, and it boom tier 2 early most of game (not u? U maybe pro congratulation!) So when Th Fc come out, I didnt use sentinel.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Torpid » Sun 28 Jun, 2015 9:33 pm

Catachans get wrecked by ASM now in T1 and T2. In T2 they don't stand a chance at all. They too few models and not enough dps.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 12:25 am

This rework would make nobody ever get the thunder hammer :)
In every situation the other 2 weapons would be better options.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Venjitron » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 1:28 am

add in a ground pound ability also aoe with knockback problem solved?
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 3:10 am

So you have only one knockback per cooldown/engagement. That would solve nothing. He would be a lesser Warboss. Lesser because the Warboss has a special attack that also does 360 knockback and he can wield a ranged weapon at the same time. Only thing that would be better is the power melee.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby lolzarz » Tue 30 Jun, 2015 2:32 am

So you mean turn Thunder Hammer into Nemesis Daemon Hammer? You do realize the Brother-Captain has an in-built 360-knockback special right? The Force Commander doesn't have that.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby ytimk » Tue 30 Jun, 2015 3:14 am

Venjitron wrote:fewl...sm fanboi propagander

:( Compelling balancing discussion. Come on cut it out.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby appiah4 » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 7:51 am

karnakkardak wrote:As one of IG player, I totally agreed venjitron's offer. Originally IG terribly lack of anti assult team, and this combined Th FC=nothing to couter except inquistor.
My opinion is only about Ig situation but not really different other faction maybe.


Imperial Guard has a shitload of armored targets the TH can do nothing against. WTF are you smoking?
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Nurland » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 8:57 am

TH is more or less meant to be the infantry blob counter (similar to Kurnous, Rending Talons or Daemon Maul). Power Fister is the FC single target damage weapon. So IF TH needs some rework it should retain its use as an anti-infantry blob weapon.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Aguxyz » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 9:30 am

appiah4 wrote:
karnakkardak wrote:As one of IG player, I totally agreed venjitron's offer. Originally IG terribly lack of anti assult team, and this combined Th FC=nothing to couter except inquistor.
My opinion is only about Ig situation but not really different other faction maybe.


Imperial Guard has a shitload of armored targets the TH can do nothing against. WTF are you smoking?

How many of those armored vehicles can you get out before FC TH starts to make you bleed more? What are you smoking? + As i play commissar its hard to deal with TH unless you can keep senti alive for stomp theres no other way to counter it unless you FOCUS FIRE HIM OF COURSE
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby appiah4 » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 10:02 am

Aguxyz wrote:
appiah4 wrote:
karnakkardak wrote:As one of IG player, I totally agreed venjitron's offer. Originally IG terribly lack of anti assult team, and this combined Th FC=nothing to couter except inquistor.
My opinion is only about Ig situation but not really different other faction maybe.


Imperial Guard has a shitload of armored targets the TH can do nothing against. WTF are you smoking?

How many of those armored vehicles can you get out before FC TH starts to make you bleed more? What are you smoking? + As i play commissar its hard to deal with TH unless you can keep senti alive for stomp theres no other way to counter it unless you FOCUS FIRE HIM OF COURSE


If you can't get a Chimera out as IG before SM can get out a TH then you are doing it wrong. Also, even a HWT keeps the TH FC in check as IG until he can get the teleporter.
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egewithin
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby egewithin » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 10:38 am

Aguxyz wrote:How many of those armored vehicles can you get out before FC TH starts to make you bleed more? What are you smoking? + As i play commissar its hard to deal with TH unless you can keep senti alive for stomp theres no other way to counter it unless you FOCUS FIRE HIM OF COURSE


Wait untill you get your Chimera. What, can't you ignore him at least for 1 or 2 minutes AND remember please, it takes 40 like seconds to produce that baby.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby hiveminion » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 11:47 am

Nurland wrote:TH is more or less meant to be the infantry blob counter (similar to Kurnous, Rending Talons or Daemon Maul). Power Fister is the FC single target damage weapon. So IF TH needs some rework it should retain its use as an anti-infantry blob weapon.


Difference being that the examples you listed do not track nor can any of those commanders teleport.

I don't agree with Venji's post but I do think the Thunder Hammer is currently too good. I understand the tracking may be necessary because of the slow animation but in combination with the teleport it is completely undodgeable and an automatic near-wipe on high-model low HP squads like Gaunts. This weapon also levels up the FC like crazy. I feel the tracking element should be removed and the animation either sped up, or the area of effect increased (possibly a slight toning down of the damage).
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Vapor » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 2:23 pm

I think the tracking makes the weapon unique and I don't want to see that go. The damage could be toned down though.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Aguxyz » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 9:25 pm

Its not hard to kill a chimera as SM unless microed well
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Black Relic » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:58 am

If I had a complaint about the TH i would say that if you enter the AoE after the special from the FC they don't get damaged and only the units being tracked get knocked over. However this allows for SOME counter play.

If I wanted to change anything about the TH it would be add a animator effect when the FC does a special attack when Battle cry is active. Like an explosion. Nothing on stats just a visual change so i could marvel at the enemies of man falling before my FC!
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 12:00 pm

Aguxyz wrote:Its not hard to kill a chimera as SM unless microed well
So basically what you are saying is that a chimera is hard to kill as SM's. You always have to assume good micro, otherwise nothing is good.
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Re: Force Commander Thunder Hammer Rework

Postby Aguxyz » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 9:13 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Aguxyz wrote:Its not hard to kill a chimera as SM unless microed well
So basically what you are saying is that a chimera is hard to kill as SM's. You always have to assume good micro, otherwise nothing is good.

Well i never had to much trouble killing chimera but if its running around harassing doing doing something wrong
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