Aetherion wrote:
Am I the only who's going to get the German joke?
Torpid wrote:I got it too. You don't have to be that cultured to know how to say 'no' in one of the world's most influential languages
Sry was just curious how prevalent it was
Aetherion wrote:
Am I the only who's going to get the German joke?
Torpid wrote:I got it too. You don't have to be that cultured to know how to say 'no' in one of the world's most influential languages
Hellstar wrote:Lots of good comments.
Black Relic wrote: But I also think that plus 3 speed is a bit too much. I feel the terminators should still be a bit vulnerable while they retreat so maybe a 2.5 speed or something a bit lower than 3.
It's set to a 0.7 modifier against building_light in the internal build right now. Still allows the satchel to one-shot brood nests, webways and stuff, but leaves generators with a little over 200 hp (with mind blades active).Black Relic wrote:2: Satchel charge damage modifier toward building_light armor needs to be lowered so they cannot be destroyed by one charge. Id be fine with the charge doing about 450 damage to the gens so the unit wouldn't be wasting their time bashing gens.
It's up to 280 seconds (from the time of retreat) in the newer build atm.Black Relic wrote:3: This is probably going to happen anyway. The Cooldown on the terminator retreat needs to go up to maybe 4 minutes 30 seconds.
Speed increase on retreat? It isn't 3, at least not immediately. And at 12 seconds after retreat, it goes up to +4.25 for all retreating squads I think.Black Relic wrote:But I also think that plus 3 speed is a bit too much. I feel the terminators should still be a bit vulnerable while they retreat so maybe a 2.5 speed or something a bit lower than 3.
NM's are infantry.Adeptus Noobus wrote: ... NMs may be heavy infantry but ...
Dark Riku wrote:Let's ask ourselves what counters suppression teams.
In T1:In T2:
- Snipers who do more damage to HI.
- Jump troops who do the same damage to HI and do even more damage to HI when they have power melee like storm boys (or Bloodletters come T2).
- Grenade launcher who deal more damage to HI.
- Thrown grenades who also deal more damage to HI.
- Infiltration which will be a combination of the above weapons.
- Flanking where they receive a bit less damage from "normal arms fire" [piercing_pvp]. But let's be honest here. Flanks are carried out to (force) melee, throw a grenade, etc to force suppression teams off in which case you probably want infantry armor.
So what is so advantageous about being HI? Being a bit more resistant to small arms fire [piercing_pvp] that doesn't directly counter them in the first place?
- Artillery which will deal more damage to HI.
You also have to remember that non of the above mentioned counters is any better in dealing with the infantry armored suppression teams who on top of that have more health than their HI counterparts. I left out hero abilities because of the more complex state of those and because I wanted to address the "generic" counters but they too can deal with suppression teams. Like Flesh Hook, Hammer of the Witches, High Powered Shot, Defend, etc.
Dark Riku wrote:
LOTS OF TEXT
Dark Riku wrote:@setup teams.
Going to quote myself and adjust where needed from a long time ago. (adjusted the sniper part)Dark Riku wrote:Let's ask ourselves what counters suppression teams.
In T1:In T2:
- Snipers who do more damage to HI.
- Jump troops who do the same damage to HI and do even more damage to HI when they have power melee like storm boys (or Bloodletters come T2).
- Grenade launcher who deal more damage to HI.
- Thrown grenades who also deal more damage to HI.
- Infiltration which will be a combination of the above weapons.
- Flanking where they receive a bit less damage from "normal arms fire" [piercing_pvp]. But let's be honest here. Flanks are carried out to (force) melee, throw a grenade, etc to force suppression teams off in which case you probably want infantry armor.
So what is so advantageous about being HI? Being a bit more resistant to small arms fire [piercing_pvp] that doesn't directly counter them in the first place?
- Artillery which will deal more damage to HI.
You also have to remember that non of the above mentioned counters is any better in dealing with the infantry armored suppression teams who on top of that have more health than their HI counterparts. I left out hero abilities because of the more complex state of those and because I wanted to address the "generic" counters but they too can deal with suppression teams. Like Flesh Hook, Hammer of the Witches, High Powered Shot, Defend, etc.
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Atlas, would you care to elaborate more on the Noise Marines?
DarnedDragoon wrote:What's the reasoning behind making GK terminators and paladins cost less to reinforce than SM/Chaos terminators?
Why do GK Ops get to do so much dps with their shotguns plus get grenades and free invisibility?
I just had a 3v3...
Hellstar wrote:I personally don't know the reasoning behind it. I could think of reasons, but it could literally be anything under the sun. But what's your issue with the fact that it isn't exactly the same as other factions? Do you want all units and factions in the game to be the same?
I can take a stab at this one. They lost suppression and jump squads in tier 1. As far as I'm concerned the units are essentially lost forever because they seem to lack utility in other tiers.
I can turn these types of questions around. Why do marines get suppression and jump in tier 1? Why do they get Predator tanks?
I could go on and on with this.
"I just had a 3v3... "
There's your problem.
Not saying you shouldn't play 3v3s, but you don't want to draw balance conclusions from them, and you probably shouldn't expect the game to be balanced around that game mode.
Torpid wrote:I played 3v3 yesterday with GK for the first time and the result?
Well let's just say they are just as overpowered in practice as they seem on paper.
Also I still don't understand the rationale behind havoc melee resist in t1, it would make more sense in t2
1)SM vs GK is an almost impossible matchup for SM.
Sub_Zero wrote:Also I still don't understand the rationale behind havoc melee resist in t1, it would make more sense in t2
Havocs in their current state make jump units against them a joke, not even talking about instances where heroes attempt to counter them. In T2 Chaos only gets stronger in terms of jump units countering. EVERY hero gets an ability to COMPLETELY (or almost completely) shut down any jump unit after it performed its assault against a squad of havocs. CL - stun, PC - stun, CS - immobilization. In no tier melee resistance on havocs is reasonable. Yes, it is investments but whatever. Before the patch if I did everything right my opponent couldn't force off my havocs with his jump unit. This has to prove something, that they were fine. And I am more than sure that EVERY competent Chaos player can agree. I recently played one game in retail and was so surprised how easily my devs got owned. The patch that made them resistant to melee is a good thing, space marines aren't good at countering jump units. With havocs that is not the thing, in T1 heretics overwhelm any aggressor and pin it down and in T2 there is a great counter to jump units available for every hero. The patch that made havocs resistant to melee is not a good thing. The melee resistance is not to prevent kills on retreat, you can keep the suppression team on the field because of that! And while SM lack good anti-melee tools, Chaos clearly don't. It takes more time for SM players to force off a jump unit hence the more resistant devs are balanced because all this time devs get banged. Havocs remain almost untouched after heretics counter-initiated.
For some reason I was confused. They are infantry but have HI armor. Late night posting My bad.Adeptus Noobus wrote:Noise Marines are HI iirc.
Yes, this is supporting Caeltos' reasoning for the most part.Adeptus Noobus wrote:I guess this is supporting Caeltos reasoning here?
Atlas wrote:How "useful" is the skyleap ability for the autarch really? In the rare instances you actually see an Autarch, I hardly see the Skyleap aspect really played with.
DarnedDragoon wrote:It's in fact lower cost than other factions, and yes they are basically the same unit type so they should be just as expensive to reinforce.
Sorry no, you always want to ensure team games are balanced as they are the most played game type.
Hellstar wrote: You seem to have a very limited view of what constitutes balance. Have you ever considered that different factions might have different reinforcement costs for similar or same unit types for good reasons? One reason might be compensation for something lacking in the faction, or compensation for something another faction gets. There could be a whole host of reasons I could fathom.
If you say that reinforcement costs should be the same for same unit types, what else should be the same? Weapons? Unit stats? Everything else?
I'm not saying there is a good reason for the different reinforcement costs, because I don't know.
If I were betting in Vegas, I'd bet that you should expect to wait a long time for ensured balance in team games.
Metal C0Mmander wrote:Comments.
DarnedDragoon wrote:You haven't made a strong case why paladins and gk terminators shouldn't get reinforcement cost increase
If you say that reinforcement costs should be the same for same unit types, what else should be the same? Weapons? Unit stats? Everything else?
Lets slow it down there Hellstar, increasing reinforcement cost is a good start.
I'm not saying there is a good reason for the different reinforcement costs, because I don't know.
So why are you arguing with me?
How do you know my views on the subject of balance? How are they dogmatic?
...and yes they are basically the same unit type so they should be just as expensive to reinforce.
"Look, for all I know the balance in this mod is shit, and Caeltos is an idiot. "
I don't think anyone, who is a reasonable or sensible person, who continuously plays the Elite mod would ever think this. You are being ridiculous.
Yep never said the mod was shit and Caeltos was an idiot...
It's obvious that the modding team knows this already and your point of view doesn't make a difference.
So you can calm down Hellstar.
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